Rehash: This seems reasonable enough.....

[Michael]

- I don't agree.

It's their fanatism which drives them not willing to loose any members of society. I don't know on what base they accuse conversion to be crime. I never find any verse in qur'an to support that stance. What I know, if one is not muslim, then it's the business between one and God, nothing to do with other muslims. Only once one a muslim, one should follow qur'an.

Don’t we find a similar occurrence in monotheistic Xian Europe?
Doesn’t the Torah contain verses that justify the mistreatment of non-Jewish?
Doesn’t the Qur’an contain edicts that suggest non-Muslims to be treated differently than Muslims?

I don’t know about you but, with such a mind-set, it seems a very very small step towards discrimination - and even smaller step towards a Religious State controlling the very thoughts of it’s citizens. Surely not a place I want to live.


1) Why do you suppose that most majority Muslim countries (actually Xian and Jewish can be lumped in here - so lets say "monotheistic") have such despicable attitudes? It has nothing, nothing at all, to do with their religion? From SE Asian Indonesia to Arab KSA we have this same identical caustic attitude – yet you "disagree" it has anything at all to do with the Islamic Belief System? I find that very hard to swallow. If it has nothing to do with the religious belief system – then why? What else is there that connects Islamic Indonesia culturally with Islamic KSA other than Islam? (language – no, history – no, religion – yes)


One more question:
If, (lets just suppose here) … if, the USA bombed the Kaaba flat- into a million small little peaces of dust and rubble.

2) What would the response be in the Muslim world? What would your response be?

Yes, they did.

I have another question:
According to Wiki, in 631-ish Muhammad rode a magical animal (of course this was overnight and no one saw him!) to the Al-Aqsa “Mosque” and back again. This was because this was considered the furthest Mosque. (Is this correct?) I wondered, why was this a “mosque” – when at this time Jerusalem was still under Byzantine rule? Wouldn’t it have been the Temple Mount or a Xian building?

Why a “Mosque”? Were there "Muslims" living there? Who were they? How many were there? Where did they live and what did they worship as a belief system?? There was no "Qur'an" at this time point after all.

Doesn’t this add some support to the notion that Muslims are actually conservative Jews? Basically Muhammad would have been an Arab that converted to Judaism and then someone added his story to the end of the Torha.

3) Is it reasonable that Muhammad was a conservative Jewish convert?
4) Do you really believe Muhammad rode a magical animal over night or is this simply a story?


Just curious,

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

FYI A mosque does not signify a building but a place of prostration.

The word Masjid derived from the root word "Saa" "Jaa" "Daa" in arabic which means (to prostrate) (act of worship). In this case not only the Mosque of Umar is considered as Masjid al-Aqsa but the entire precinct too. Muslims belief that the Temple of Solomon meant by the Jews was a Masjid and not a temple because Islam believe that all prophet conveyed the same message and prostrated to God during prayers.

According to the teachings of Islam, God in the Qur'an used the word Mosque when referring to the sites established by Abraham and his progeny as houses of worship to God centuries before the revelation of the Qur'an. The first of these spots is Masjid al-Haram in Mecca and the second is Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Before Mecca and Jerusalem came under muslim control in 630 CE and 638 CE, the site of the Kaaba, which was established by Abraham and Ishmael but at the time of Muhammad was used by pagans. In Jerusalem the site of Al-Aqsa Mosque, which was under Roman Empire, was an abadoned and abused area by the Romans but on which a house of worship established originally by Jacob forty years after his grandfather Abraham established the Kaabah and was used by succeeding prophets like David, Solomon, and Zacharias.

 

[LiveInFaith]

Don’t we find a similar occurrence in monotheistic Xian Europe?
Doesn’t the Torah contain verses that justify the mistreatment of non-Jewish?
Doesn’t the Qur’an contain edicts that suggest non-Muslims to be treated differently than Muslims?

I don’t know about you but, with such a mind-set, it seems a very very small step towards discrimination - and even smaller step towards a Religious State controlling the very thoughts of it’s citizens. Surely not a place I want to live.

It you mean is 'jizya', that I think is valid only in war period, where muslims obliged to go war, and non-muslim citizens under protection not-obliged, so they are charged with materials.

If there is different treatment, it is normal from the view point of society livinghood. Muslim brotherhood is a society.When you are not a member of such society, you will be treated differently by the society. In any societies, members have such privileges which not valid for non-members.

A prestigious club will reject you to enter when you come without wearing a nice suit.

1) Why do you suppose that most majority Muslim countries (actually Xian and Jewish can be lumped in here - so lets say "monotheistic") have such despicable attitudes? It has nothing, nothing at all, to do with their religion? From SE Asian Indonesia to Arab KSA we have this same identical caustic attitude – yet you "disagree" it has anything at all to do with the Islamic Belief System? I find that very hard to swallow. If it has nothing to do with the religious belief system – then why? What else is there that connects Islamic Indonesia culturally with Islamic KSA other than Islam? (language – no, history – no, religion – yes)

Yes they are connected by muslim brotherhood.
Yes, (most of them) see others of different religion will go to hell. But I also have some people with same interpretation with me that heaven and hell is fully god's wish, not us human to know, what to say determine.

You could be right.
There should be some reforms in the way of teachings of Islam. But I would not say to reform qur'an. It just needs a modern interpretation. Most indonesian muslims are taught using traditional way, which has been conducted since hundreds of years ago (the complex of madrasas in Indonesia - they call it 'pesantren', used to be an isolated place to defend themselves from the influence of Dutch colonials in 16th - 20th centuries). Sadly, they still use the same old yellowed book until now. Some has changed appropriate to the era, but most are still on their old traditional way.

One more question:
If, (lets just suppose here) … if, the USA bombed the Kaaba flat- into a million small little peaces of dust and rubble.

2) What would the response be in the Muslim world? What would your response be?

First, it's a destruction. I bet what you (I guess) think will happen.
I will curse the bomber, first for making destruction, and the second for triggering muslims angers, which then snowballing other destructions. It is triggering a predicted actions. If you are mostly predicted to kill someone when I do such things, why would I do?
Kaaba is symbol of unity and equality in brotherhood, where all muslims all over the world gather and no one brings their social status, all are equal.

I have another question:
According to Wiki, in 631-ish Muhammad rode a magical animal (of course this was overnight and no one saw him!) to the Al-Aqsa “Mosque” and back again. This was because this was considered the furthest Mosque. (Is this correct?) I wondered, why was this a “mosque” – when at this time Jerusalem was still under Byzantine rule? Wouldn’t it have been the Temple Mount or a Xian building?

Why a “Mosque”? Were there "Muslims" living there? Who were they? How many were there? Where did they live and what did they worship as a belief system?? There was no "Qur'an" at this time point after all.

sam explained it.

3) Is it reasonable that Muhammad was a conservative Jewish convert?
4) Do you really believe Muhammad rode a magical animal over night or is this simply a story?


Just curious,

Michael

3. I guess, could be Christian, Jews, or pagan.
4. This is faith. I believe what qur'an says.

Just for comparisaon, if we believe startrek transport mode could be achieved one day, why not?.
And some clerics has capability of knowing things far away, like they were in two places at the same time.

 

[Michael]

FYI A mosque does not signify a building but a place of prostration.

I suppose my question was along the lines of why would Mohammed choose a place that is significant to Jews unless he was Jewish? It seems obvious enough to me. He wasn’t born Jewish so he must have been a Jewish convert. Why else would the Qur’an be a 70% rewrite of the Torah? Either, it is just a big coincidence that Judaism is the heart of Islam, (over, say, another religious - like Aztec or Shinto) and another big coincidence that Jews just happened to live in the same area as Mohammed (over say native Americans or Japanese) and yet another big coincidence that Jewish religious sites just happen to also be “Islamic” religious sites and Mohammad just happened to ride a magic fairy creature though the night to Jerusalem the center of Jewish religious belief .................... or, and I am sure you will agree, the more likely answer is that Mohammed was a Jew.

Surely that is the only reasonable explanation? Don't you think so?

It you mean is 'jizya', that I think is valid only in war period, where muslims obliged to go war, and non-muslim citizens under protection not-obliged, so they are charged with materials.

Apologist?
Surely you don’t think people should be distinguished based on their personal belief?
Do you?
Perhaps from a naïve perspective it may seem reasonable, but as we look throughout history we can clear-as-day see that millions upon millions of peoples were murdered, raped, plundered and enslaved, all for such an asinine distinction. I think with 20/20 hindsight, the more informed person would agree that such a distinction is not at allbeneficial for society.

Don’t you think so?

You yourself said it’s time for the traditional Islamic mindset to advance into modernity. Or so that’s what I thought you said????



A couple questions as to the Kaaba example:
Am I correct in assuming that you are suggesting that if the Kaaba was bombed to peaces that all hell would break loose in the Islamic world? If so then we agree. I mean, if the couple of silly cartoons caused such ramped death and destruction in the Islamic World - could you imagine what the destruction of the Kaaba would lead to!?!?

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is because I was again thinking about religion and the effect it has on the general person’s attitude. Somewhere in the mindset of society rests some religious influence? And if we must have religion (and we must) – why not pick one that promotes a peaceful state of mind?


Do you remember when some Muslims destroyed the two and a half millennia old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan? You know, these statues were, to some Buddhists, as sacred as the Kaaba is to many Muslims. After their utter animation we didn’t see a World were Buddhist leaders were chanting death to Islam and henceforth calling for revenge and ensuing carnage and rampages did we?
No we didn’t.
1) Why?
2) Why do you suppose the two religions inspire such different responses in their practitioners?
3) Which religion do you think the more peaceful: Islam or Buddhism?
4) If you were not a religious person- Which of the two would you choose to practice and why?

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

I suppose my question was along the lines of why would Mohammed choose a place that is significant to Jews unless he was Jewish? It seems obvious enough to me. He wasn’t born Jewish so he must have been a Jewish convert. Why else would the Qur’an be a 70% rewrite of the Torah? Either, it is just a big coincidence that Judaism is the heart of Islam, (over, say, another religious - like Aztec or Shinto) and another big coincidence that Jews just happened to live in the same area as Mohammed (over say native Americans or Japanese) and yet another big coincidence that Jewish religious sites just happen to also be “Islamic” religious sites and Mohammad just happened to ride a magic fairy creature though the night to Jerusalem the center of Jewish religious belief .................... or, and I am sure you will agree, the more likely answer is that Mohammed was a Jew.

Surely that is the only reasonable explanation? Don't you think so?

Michael

So what, in your opinion, is a Jew?

 

[Michael]

So what, in your opinion, is a Jew?

A person who holds the majority of Jewish religious myths as their religious belief.

There is no such a thing as “race” and hence I do not believe in a race of Jews.

Both Xianity and Islam are Judaic in that they are centered around Jewish myths.

In the Xian faith the mythical character of Yehoshua is Jewish religious leader. He is a Jew. This is evident in the religion he, supposedly, founded – Xianity is Judaic. Half of Xianity is a plagiarism of the Torah.
The same reasoning holds true for Islam. And so the only reasonable conclusion is the Mohammed was Jewish. Why else copy and add to their particular religious myths?

If the Islamic myths mainly centered around Buddhist religous myths - then I would have said Mohammed was a Buddhist convert.
If Islam was a new and unique myth then I would say he was a Mohammedian – but that isn’t the case and so the likelihood is he was Jewish.

Doesn't that seem reasonable?
What do you think?

Michael

 

[LiveInFaith]

Apologist?
Surely you don’t think people should be distinguished based on their personal belief?
Do you?

Perhaps from a naïve perspective it may seem reasonable, but as we look throughout history we can clear-as-day see that millions upon millions of peoples were murdered, raped, plundered and enslaved, all for such an asinine distinction. I think with 20/20 hindsight, the more informed person would agree that such a distinction is not at allbeneficial for society.

Don’t you think so?

You yourself said it’s time for the traditional Islamic mindset to advance into modernity. Or so that’s what I thought you said????

No distintion, should be applied as general principle. That's the basic I agree with you.
The apology you saw in my post, I was talking about historical fact, in context to the beginiing of Islam, when there were wars. Not for today. I mean that's a practice contextual with situation, not a general principle.

A couple questions as to the Kaaba example:
Am I correct in assuming that you are suggesting that if the Kaaba was bombed to peaces that all hell would break loose in the Islamic world? If so then we agree. I mean, if the couple of silly cartoons caused such ramped death and destruction in the Islamic World - could you imagine what the destruction of the Kaaba would lead to!?!?

What else could happen? Anyone would imagine the same thing.

Anyway, the reason I brought this up is because I was again thinking about religion and the effect it has on the general person’s attitude. Somewhere in the mindset of society rests some religious influence? And if we must have religion (and we must) – why not pick one that promotes a peaceful state of mind?

That's very reasonable. Infact religion does give great influence on people's minds.
I don't know the others, only can speak for myself. I choose Islam because that's the first taught to me, then I found it gives me good influence, it promotes peace in me. No need to find other.

It doesn't allow me to cross the line (this course is called 'AKHLAQ', means morality), but it also asks me to fight when my rights under assaults.

Do you remember when some Muslims destroyed the two and a half millennia old Buddhist statues in Afghanistan? You know, these statues were, to some Buddhists, as sacred as the Kaaba is to many Muslims. After their utter animation we didn’t see a World were Buddhist leaders were chanting death to Islam and henceforth calling for revenge and ensuing carnage and rampages did we?
No we didn’t.
1) Why?
2) Why do you suppose the two religions inspire such different responses in their practitioners?
3) Which religion do you think the more peaceful: Islam or Buddhism?
4) If you were not a religious person- Which of the two would you choose to practice and why?

Michael

1. I don't know how the statue situation, was it still used, or just left no use? If it is not used, and the place of it was under the authority of government, then it's their business how to treat the land location. But if it were still used for Buddhists to worship, that was an assault. Buddhists supposed to protest.
The same for Kaaba. (If for instance), once it is left with no religion functions/activities, and Arabia were under authority of non-muslim which has no interest of having it, it's their business what to do with that rock-box.
So, surely muslim will angry for their place of worship is destroyed.

2. I don;t know much about Buddhism. From a Buddhist friend I get impression of fatalistic practice. But I could get wrong impression.

3. I could not compare. What do you mean with peace? No fight until one kills you, is it a peace?

4. I would still choose Islam, more balance in pursuing human nature of ambitions. It promotes to be well-being in material world, in line with being rich spiritually: be a great, pursue wealth, enjoy life, but do it right with 'akhlaq' (moral), don't cross the line.

 

[LiveInFaith]

A person who holds the majority of Jewish religious myths as their religious belief.

There is no such a thing as “race” and hence I do not believe in a race of Jews.

Both Xianity and Islam are Judaic in that they are centered around Jewish myths.

In the Xian faith the mythical character of Yehoshua is Jewish religious leader. He is a Jew. This is evident in the religion he, supposedly, founded – Xianity is Judaic. Half of Xianity is a plagiarism of the Torah.
The same reasoning holds true for Islam. And so the only reasonable conclusion is the Mohammed was Jewish. Why else copy and add to their particular religious myths?

If the Islamic myths mainly centered around Buddhist religous myths - then I would have said Mohammed was a Buddhist convert.
If Islam was a new and unique myth then I would say he was a Mohammedian – but that isn’t the case and so the likelihood is he was Jewish.

Doesn't that seem reasonable?
What do you think?

Michael

Putting aside faith, I agree with you.
There is no story what Muhammad believe in his life before 40. The community around him was pagan with hundreds of statues to worship. And being illiterate, who did teach him Torah?

 

[Michael]

Putting aside faith, I agree with you.
There is no story what Muhammad believe in his life before 40. The community around him was pagan with hundreds of statues to worship. And being illiterate, who did teach him Torah?

You know, it’s really hard to say exactly what the “real” history is behind the “accepted” history.

For example: Most people believe “Jesus” was a real person. However, I think if one were to seriously investigate the matter they will come to the conclusion Jesus is an allegory. Ironically enough, half of the Xian population in the first century understood Jesus was not a real person.

Interesting huh?

So it may be that Mohammed could read and write. Or it may be that Mohammed was illiterate and that he heard the stories and instructed people to write down his interpretation? He may have had a memory like Mozart – who could write the musical score for each instrument for entire opera on just one listening! Maybe his advisors wrote the everything? Perhaps the Quran itself was written by Zoroastrians well versed in Jewish literature?

So, it’s hard to say when hearsay becomes myth and myth becomes belief and belief become religion… … … .. ..

Michael


OK – I’m off to the coast for 5 days of R&R! Take care!

 

[S.A.M.]

A person who holds the majority of Jewish religious myths as their religious belief.

There is no such a thing as “race” and hence I do not believe in a race of Jews.

Both Xianity and Islam are Judaic in that they are centered around Jewish myths.

In the Xian faith the mythical character of Yehoshua is Jewish religious leader. He is a Jew. This is evident in the religion he, supposedly, founded – Xianity is Judaic. Half of Xianity is a plagiarism of the Torah.
The same reasoning holds true for Islam. And so the only reasonable conclusion is the Mohammed was Jewish. Why else copy and add to their particular religious myths?

If the Islamic myths mainly centered around Buddhist religous myths - then I would have said Mohammed was a Buddhist convert.
If Islam was a new and unique myth then I would say he was a Mohammedian – but that isn’t the case and so the likelihood is he was Jewish.

Doesn't that seem reasonable?
What do you think?

Michael

And where did Mohammed claim otherwise?
(i.e claim he was bringing a different religion?)

 

[Michael]

And where did Mohammed claim otherwise?
(i.e claim he was bringing a different religion?)

Point taken, and, in another thread, you did say something to the effect that Jerusalem held great significance in very early Islam?

So with this in mind, the notion that God needed a new Prophet to fix some things, well, as an atheist (one that accepts the World needs some sort of religious belief) I kind of think to myself – what kind of idiot God thinks its worthwhile to make a couple insignificant corrections to one particular religion that happens to be biased towards Jewish myths, corrections that don’t seem to add value but instead leave the World in angst for thousands of years.

Xians killing Jews, Muslims killing Xians, Jews killing Muslims .. .. .. all over what?

What was the great revelation into the human condition that was worth the rivers of blood? The phrase: “…. and Mohammed was the Last Prophet”.

One must ask – was it worth it? Really, it seems more a cult of personality as you yourself said that this is the second act one must fulfill to be Muslim.

Anyway, to me, as I see all religion as simply myth, I have a feeling that if one were to invent a religion then perhaps the years that this Buddha fellow sat in silent contemplation on the human condition were probably much better spent than simply adding this simple nondescript phrase.

But, then again, my Chinese friend once told me: “I’m converting from Buddhism’s to Xianity – Buddhism is too difficult and too much of a downer…” Knowing full well what I think of Xianity!

Well now, I accept I was wrong.

It’s not that the World needs some sort of religious belief – its that the World needs many different kinds of belief. Maybe even monotheisms


OK, I’m taking 5 days off to swim in the ocean!

Take care!
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

The Kaaba is also associated with Abraham, just like the precinct of the Masjid al Aqsa

 

[Michael]

The Kaaba is also associated with Abraham, just like the precinct of the Masjid al Aqsa

Was the Kaaba associated with Abraham pre-Islam? Did traditional Jews think that the Kaaba was a sacred place?

 

[S.A.M.]

Was the Kaaba associated with Abraham pre-Islam? Did traditional Jews think that the Kaaba was a sacred place?

It was a sacred place, though associations with Abraham are not known.

Academics believe that the stories of Abraham and Ishmael and the divine origin of the Kaaba are myths. Most academics do accept that the Kaaba was a cult center housing a number of gods, that it was a pilgrimage center, and that the Black Stone was a feature of the pre-Islamic Kaaba. However, there is not enough evidence to prove the theories one way or another.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

It was a sacred place, though associations with Abraham are not known.

*************
M*W: As I understand the myth, the Kaaba is the house that Abraham built for Hagar and Ishmael. Legend is it that he traveled to their house every year, and he continued to take care of them. In fact, I believe I've also read that Abraham had other children with Hagar. I know he had more than just Ishmael and Isaac.

 

[S.A.M.]

*************
M*W: As I understand the myth, the Kaaba is the house that Abraham built for Hagar and Ishmael. Legend is it that he traveled to their house every year, and he continued to take care of them. In fact, I believe I've also read that Abraham had other children with Hagar. I know he had more than just Ishmael and Isaac.

In the Quran, it is sometimes referred to as Becca

The Qur'ân talks about Bakkah (the older name of Makkah) being the first house of worship appointed for mankind. It also addresses this place as Umm ul-Qurâ i.e., Mother of the Settlements.

"The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people. In it are clear signs: the station of Abraham.

The station of Abraham or Muqaam-e-Ibrahim is a site designated as such in the Masjid al Haram, but the origin(for deciding this location) is unknown to me.

http://www5.flickr.mud.yahoo.com/photos/70511280@N00/295493495/

Gibbons has also indicated its pre-Islamic status:

The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.

There are several stories associated with it:

The pre-Islamic records of the Kaʿbah indicate that it was an ancient shrine and place of sacrifice. The geographer Ptolemy refers to Mecca as Macoraba, a term that is likely cognate with South Arabian mikrab (temple), and Northwest Semitic qurbān (sacrifice). Arabic records indicate that the Kaʿbah was a place of pagan sacrifice until the arrival of Islam. Qur˒anic verses and Muslim legends assign an importance to the Kaʿbah similar to the position of the Jerusalem Temple for Judaism. Many Western scholars have pointed to similarities among stories about the two shrines. It is said to be at the center of the earth and the location at which Adam first performed worship of God. It is thought to be directly beneath a heavenly counterpart that some hold to be the "real" Kaʿbah. Under heavenly guidance, it is said to have been first constructed by Abraham (Ibrāhīm) and his son Ishmael (Ishmā'īl) when the Sakīnah circled the spot and instructed them to build. The Black Stone is believed to have been brought from heaven by the angel Gabriel (Jibrīl), giving rise to modern, secular speculation that the stone is a meteorite. The nearby well of Zamzam was the source of water for Ishmael and Hagar when they were cast into the desert. Abraham was the first to institute the pilgrimage (ḥājj), and it is held to be the location of the graves of Abraham, Ishmael, Hagar and a number of prophets.