regarding the bible

the preacher

fur is loose 666
Registered Senior Member
this is a very interesting read, though rather long.
so I give thanks to Rook Hawkins at infidel guy.


As Dennis McKinsey stated, "Jesus, Paul and Peter are three of the most important figures in the NT, yet, the degree to which their teachings diverge is a sight to behold. Peter disagrees with Jesus and Paul on many points, while the latter two often contradict one another. As on TV's To Tell the Truth, one can't help but ask, "Will the true voice of Christianity please stand up?" Paul claims to speak for Jesus, to be his voice, "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not"--Rom. 9:1 and 1 Tim. 2:7; "As the truth of Christ is in me"--2 Cor. 11:10; "Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me"--2 Cor. 13:3, despite abundant evidence to the contrary."

Indeed the question has become not "How are these three so vivid with their details" but "How are these three even in the Bible together when there is so much between their works that cannot be reconciled?" The very fact that so much between them conflict, especially in how the church should be run, and in what aspects of the church are important, that one cannot know for sure if they are doing everything right - or if they are even living life like a true Christian should - because so much of three these conflict it is impossible to know which way is the correct way.

This thread is dedicated to a critique of these three individuals, their conflicting sides and their rather dubious sides. Onto the critique:

Jesus vs. Paul




(1) Jesus--"Go not into the way of the Gentiles" (Matt. 10:5) and "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24), and "...for salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22) versus Paul--"For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth" (Acts 13:47) and "from henceforth, I (Paul--Ed.) will go unto the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6) and "that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it" (Acts 28:28) and "that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles" (Rom. 15:16) and "that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ" (Eph. 3:8) and (Acts 20:21, 26:17-18, 20, 23, 22:21, Rom. 1:5, 13, 3:29, 11:11-13, 15:9, Gal. 2:2, 7-9, 3:14, Eph. 3:6, 1 Tim. 2:7, 3:16, 2 Tim. 4:17). Jesus told his followers not to go to the Gentiles and Paul countermanded the order.

(2) Jesus--"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven...." (Matt. 5:17-19) and "it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fall" (Luke 16:17) and "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do" (Matt. 23:2-3) and (John 7:19, Mark 1:44) versus Paul--"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Rom. 7:4) and "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Gal. 3:13) and "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Rom. 6:14) and "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Rom. 7:6) and (Rom. 10:4, 3:28, Gal. 3:23-25, 5:2-4, 18, 2:19, 21, 16, 4:10, Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14, 16, Heb. 7:19, 1 Cor. 8:8 and many others). Jesus said the law would stand till heaven and earth passed, while Paul said it need no longer be followed.

(3) Jesus--"Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not" (Matt. 10:5) versus Paul--"they (Paul and Barnabas--Ed.) passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles" (Acts 15:3). Jesus said Samaria was not to be entered which Paul chose to ignore.

(4) Jesus--"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28:19) versus Paul--"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" (1 Cor. 1:17). To baptize or not to baptize, that is the question.

(5) Jesus--"but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matt. 5:22) versus Paul--"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die" (1 Cor. 15:36) and "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you" (Gal. 3:1) and "We are fools for Christ's sake" (1 Cor. 4:10) and (Rom. 1:22, 1 Cor. 3:18). Apparently Paul doesn't feel "fool" is a dangerous word or hell fire is a thing to be feared.

(6) Paul--"I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20) and "who gave himself for our sins" (Gal. 1:3) and "walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God" (Eph. 5:2) and "even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it" (Eph. 5:25) and 1 Tim. 2:6, Titus 2:14, Heb. 7:27, 9:14) versus Jesus--"...My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34) and "...My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death:... O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me" (Matt. 26:38-39). "Cup" comes from a Hebrew word which actually means "fate" or, in this case, "death." If Jesus gladly gave himself as a sacrifice for all, you'd never know it from his words.

(7) Paul--"Honor thy father and mother: which is the first commandment" (Eph. 6:2) versus Jesus--"If any man came to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26).

(8) Paul--"I will therefore that men pray everywhere lifting up holy hands...." (1 Tim. 2:8) versus Jesus--"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.... But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret" (Matt. 6:5-6). Those clamoring for prayer in the schools had better quote Paul and not Jesus.

(9) Jesus--"all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:19) versus Paul--"The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders...." (2 Thess. 2:9 RSV). Who, then has all power, Jesus or the lawless one?

(10) Paul--"In whom (Jesus--Ed.) are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Col. 2:3) versus Jesus--"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son...." (Mark 13:32). Apparently Jesus didn't feel he was as omniscient as did Paul.

(11) Jesus--"but the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26) versus Paul--"But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the gentiles, but when they came he drew back and separated himself fearing the circumcision party. And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, `If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" (Gal. 2:11-14 RSV) and "For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarrling among you, my brethrem. What I mean is that each one of you says, `I belong to Paul,' or `I belong to Apollos,' or `I belong to Peter' or `I belong to Christ.' Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Cor. 1:11-13 RSV). The Holy Ghost must not have reached both Peter and Paul. Apparently, he also missed some of the brethren.

(12) Paul--"And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:39) versus Jesus--"...but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Matt. 12:32) and "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation" (Mark 3:29). According to Jesus you can never be justified for all things.

(13) Jesus--"...for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted" (Luke 18:14) versus Paul--"For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles" (2 Cor. 11:5) and "I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing" (2 Cor. 12:11) and "that which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also" (2 Cor. 11:17-18). Apparently Paul did not feel being abased was something to be feared either.

(14) Paul--"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ...." (2 Cor. 5:10) versus Jesus--"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man" (John 8:15) and "...who made me a judge and a divider over you?" (Luke 12:14) and "...for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (John 12:47) and (John 8:50). Somebody should have told Paul that Jesus doesn't want the job.

(15) Paul--"...who (Jesus--Ed.), being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Phil. 2:6) and "For in him (Christ) dwelleth all of the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9) versus Jesus--"...for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) and "...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17). Paul may consider Jesus God's equal but clearly Jesus does not.

(16) Jesus--"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26) versus Paul--"it was impossible for God to lie...." (Heb. 6:18).

(17) Jesus--"If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven" (Matt. 19:21) versus Paul--"For every man shall bear his own burden" (Gal. 6:5). One can't help but ask why people are obligated to aid the poor if every man is supposed to bear his own burden.

(18) Jesus--"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24) and "...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 10:5-6) and "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine...." (Matt. 7:6) and (Matt. 15:26, Mark 8:27, John 4:22) versus Paul "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Rom. 10:12) and "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Rom. 1:16) and "Even the righteousness of God which is my faith of Jesus Christ unto all and all them that believe: for there is no difference" (Rom. 3:22) and (1 Tim. 2:6, Rom. 4:16, 2:26-29, 4:9-13, 23-24, 11:19-25). Jesus told his followers to go only to the Jews, while Paul said there was no difference between Jews and Greeks.

(19) Paul--"Bless them which persecute you: bless and curse not" (Rom. 12:14) versus Jesus--"Ye fools and blind" (Matt. 23:17, 19) and "Woe unto you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres" (Matt. 23:27) and "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers" (Matt. 23:33) and "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers...." (John 10:8) and (Luke 11:40, 44). Apparently Jesus felt Paul's magnanimous advice was to be ignored since Paul laid down a maxim which Jesus had already cast aside.

(20) Interestingly enough, Jesus gave similar advice which Paul chose to ignore. Jesus--"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" (Matt. 5:44) and "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matt. 6:14-15) and "Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse yhou,.... And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other" (Luke 6:27-29) and Matt. 5:39) versus an account with reference to Paul's activities and comments: "And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him (Paul--Ed.) to smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, `God shall smite thee, thou whited wall, for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?' And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?" (Acts 23:2-4). Contrary to Jesus' advice Paul felt there were times when enemies should be reviled rather than blessed.

(21) Paul--"Who (Jesus--Ed.) only hath immortality...." (1 Tim. 6:16) versus Jesus--"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Paul said only Jesus had immortality, while Jesus said others have everlasting life, too. If Paul had said only Jesus can provide immortality to others, there would have been no problem. But he said only Jesus has immortality. Incidentally, how can Paul say only Jesus is immortal when everyone is immortal according to Christian beliefs whether desired or not. It's not a question of whether we are immortal but one of where we will spend eternity.

(22) Jesus--"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matt. 11:30) versus Paul--"...all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Tim. 3:12) and "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth" (Heb. 12:6). Persecution and scourging hardly sound like the concommitants of an easy yoke and a light burden.

(23) Paul--"To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:2) versus what Jesus did: "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers...." (Matt. 21:12). Jesus felt that discarding meekness and becoming a brawler were sometimes warranted.

(24) Jesus--"Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you" (Matt. 21:31) versus Paul--"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind...shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-10). Whether or not harlots will enter the kingdom of God appears to be in dispute.

(25) Jesus--"There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him" (Mark 7:15, Matt. 15:11) versus Paul--"For a bishop must be blameless...not given to wine...." (Titus 1:7) and "Not given to wine...." (1 Tim. 3:3) and (Rom. 14:21, 1 Tim. 3:8). If nothing entering a man from the outside can defile him, then why prohibit the consumption of wine?

(26) Jesus--"...Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do" (Luke 12:4) and "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil" (Matt. 5:39) versus the acts of Paul:"...And when the Jews laid wait for him (Paul) as he was about to sail into Syria, he purposed to return through Macedonia" (Acts 20:3) and "when there was an assault made both of the Gentiles and also of the Jews with their rulers, to use them (Paul and Barnabas--Ed.) despitefully, and to stone them, They were aware of it, and fled into Lystra and Derbe...." (Acts 14:5-6). Not wanting to risk life and limb Paul ignored Jesus' advice by being both afraid and resistant to evil.

(27) Jesus--"If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven...." (Matt. 19:21) versus Paul--"...but we beseech you brethren, that ye...may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing" (1 Thess. 4:10,12). How can one lack nothing if he sells all he has and gives to the poor?

(28) Paul--"If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men" (Rom. 12:18) and "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace...." (1 Cor. 14:33) and "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb. 12:14) and "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace" (Rom. 14:19) and "For Jesus is our peace.... Having abolished in his flesh the enmity...so making peace...and came and preached peace to you...." (Eph. 2:14-17) and "Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ...." (2 Cor. 10:1) and "Finally brethren,...live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you" (2 Cor. 13:11) versus Jesus--"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matt. 10:34) and "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division" (Luke 12:51) and "...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" (Luke 22:36) and "I am come to send fire on the earth..." (Luke 12:49) and "they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, `It is enough'" (Luke 22:38) and Jesus made a scourge of cords and drove them out of the temple while overthrowing tables (John 2:15, Matt. 21:12, Mark 11:15). If Jesus was as peaceful as Paul would have us believe, you'd never know it from his comments and behavior.

(29) Jesus--"Thou shalt do no murder...." (Matt. 19:18) versus Paul--"Thou shalt not kill" (Rom. 13:9). Jesus and Paul can't seem to agree on the wording of the 6th Commandment regarding killing. Every moral and legal system recognizes a difference between murder and killing. Paul outlaws killing while Jesus prefers a less comprehensive restriction. If Paul's rule prevails, soldiers, police, and those killing in self-defense are in trouble.

(30) Paul--"...who will render to every man according to his deeds" (Rom. 2:6) and "...every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor" (1 Cor. 3:8) versus Jesus--"For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder which went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard and when he had agreed with the laborers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. (The owner subsequently hired laborers on the 3rd, 9th, and 11th hours for a penny each also--Ed.)....and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first" (Matt. 20:1-3, 8). But every man received a penny regardless of when hired. Those hired first complained and the owner said, "I do thee no wrong: didn't you agree with me for a penny? Imagine! Every man received a penny regardless of when hired and how long employed and Jesus equated this with heaven. This is rewarding every man according to his deeds as Paul forecast? This is justice? Sounds more like hell than heaven!

(31) Paul--"...for he--one's ruler--beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God...." (Rom. 13:4) versus Jesus--"Put up again thy sword into his place, for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matt. 26:52).

(32) Jesus--"...Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. 4:10) and "Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:10 RSV) versus Paul--"Servants, be obedient to those that are you masters according to the flesh,...as unto Christ" (Eph. 6:5) and "Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh..." (col. 3:22) and "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters..." (Titus 2:9) and "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor..." (1 Tim. 6:1). Jesus says he is our only master, while Paul tells servants to obey their masters. How many master are there?

(33) Paul--"...remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, `It is more blessed to give than to receive'" (Acts 20:35). Nowhere in scripture does Jesus made such a statement. Matt. 10:8 ("...freely ye have received, freely give") does not apply.

(34) Jesus--"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) versus Paul--"It is Christ...who is even at the right hand of God..." (Rom. 8:34) and "...the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 3:1, Heb. 9:24, 10:12, 1 Thess. 2:5). If Jesus is one with God as he claims, then how could he be sitting beside, or subservient to, God?
 
and some more


Jesus vs. Paul Con't


(35) Paul--"...and to God the Judge of all,...." (Heb.12:23) versus Jesus--"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22) and "Jesus said, `For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see might see....'" (John 9:39 RSV) and "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28). According to Paul, God was to do all judging; while Jesus specifically said others would perform the task.
(36) Jesus--"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24, Mark 13:21-22) versus Paul--"God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and diverse miracles,...." (Heb. 2:4) and "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Cor. 12:12) and "For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Holy Spirit...." (Rom. 15:18-19 RSV). Jesus had already stated that the ability to do signs and miracles was not be used to prove one represented God. Note also Rev. 13:11-14 RSV, 16:14, 19:20. Even Paul, himself, admitted the forces of Satan could do miracles: "And then shall the wicked be revealed,...Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,...." (2 Thess. 2:8-9).
(37) Jesus--"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27) versus Paul--"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight" (Rom. 3:20) and "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ" (Gal. 2:16) and (Gal. 3:11). Jesus says you shall be rewarded according to your works while Paul holds you are saved by faith alone. What, then, happens to the man who leads a virtually immaculate life but has no faith? According to Paul he is condemned to eternal punishment, while Jesus sees a reward far more comparable to his deeds.
(38) Jesus--"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged" (Matt. 7:1-2) and "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged...." (Luke 6:37) versus Paul--"Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge" (1 Cor. 5:12 RSV) and "the spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one" (1 Cor. 2:15 RSV) and "Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more matters pertaining to this life" (1 Cor. 6:2-3). Paul not only ignored Jesus' advice by telling others to judge but made some judgments of his own such as: "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strife of words" (1 Tim. 6:4) and "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already" (1 Cor. 5:3) and (2 Tim. 2:17).
(39) Jesus--"...and be killed, and after three days rise again" (Mark 8:31) and (Matt. 28:63) versus Paul--"and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:4). Did Jesus rise on or after the 3rd day?
(40) Jesus--"...for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matt. 9:13, Mark 2:17) versus Paul--"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). Obviously Jesus could not call the righteous to repentance when there are no righteous according to Paul.
(41) Paul--"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come" (Heb. 13:14) versus Jesus--"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5). Apparently Paul felt his meek followers are not going to inherit the earth as Jesus taught but only a world do come.
(42) Jesus--"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mark 16:17-18) versus Paul--"Now there are diversities of gifts,.... For to one is given...to another prophecy;...to another divers kinds of tongues;...Are all apostles? are all prophets?...are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues?" (1 Cor. 12:4, 9-10, 29-30). According to Jesus all who believe can speak with tongues, heal, etc. Yet, according to Paul, only certain people can do so. Each ability is limited to a particular group.
(43) Jesus--"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22) versus Paul--"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" (1 Cor. 6:2). Who, then, will judge the world?
(44) Jesus--"Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body,.... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them.... Considier the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:.... But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself" (Matt. 6:25-28,30-34) versus Paul--"...every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor" (1 Cor. 3:8) and "...this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither shall he eat" (2 Thess. 3:10) and "But if any provide not for his own and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (1Tim. 5:8) and (2 Thess. 3:8, 1 Thess. 4:11, 1 Cor. 4:12, Rom. 12:11, Acts 20:34). Jesus said forget about labor and planning; God will provide. Paul said the opposite. Each person is to be rewarded according to his labor, and no one will be rewarded who does not produce accordingly.
(45) Jesus--"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:54) and "My sheep hear my voice,...and they follow me: And I will give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:27-29) versus Paul--"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,...." (Heb. 6:4-6) and "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,...." (Heb. 10:26-27) and "...in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,...." (1 Tim. 4:1). According to Jesus you are eternally saved; there can be no falling away. Paul, on the other hand, feels salvation can be lost. It's not automatic since you can still be "plucked out" after having accepted Jesus. "Some shall depart from the faith."
(46) Jesus--"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.... But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned...." (Matt. 18:3-6) and "...Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God....Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein" (Mark 10:14-15, Matt. 19:14) versus Paul--"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child but when I became a man, I put away childish things" (1 Cor. 13:11) and "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men" (1 Cor. 14:20) and "...that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men: (Eph. 4:14). Jesus would have us become as children in understanding which Paul rejects outright.
(47) Jesus--"But I say unto you, Swear not at all, neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth;...." (Matt. 5:34-35) versus Paul--"The Lord sware and will not repent,..." (Heb. 7:21) and (Heb. 6:13, 3:18). Paul attributed swearing to God which is precisely what Jesus condemned.
(48) Jesus--"But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir (Jesus); come, let us kill him...." (Matt. 21:38) versus Paul--"For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand him" (Acts 13:27 RSV) and (1Cor. 2:8). There is disagreement as to whether or not Jesus was recognized by those seeking to kill him.
(49) Paul--"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then, said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God" (Heb. 10:5-7). Nowhere in the gospels did Jesus make such a statement. Part of this is from Psalms 40:6-7 which could not have been said by Jesus, or applied to him, since Psalms 10:12 states, "...mine iniquities have taken hold upon me,...they are more than the hairs of my head." The person who said the latter also spoke in Psalm 40:6-7. Would Jesus have more iniquities than the hairs of his head?


Peter vs. Jesus


(1) Jesus--"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man" (John 8:15) versus Peter--"And he (Jesus--Ed.) commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained to be the Judge of quick and dead" (Acts 10:42).
(2) Peter--"The words which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ" (Acts 10:36) versus-- Jesus--"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword" (Matt. 10:34).
(3) Peter--"Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18) versus Jesus--"...for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matt.4:10).
(4) Peter--"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,..." (Acts 2:38) and "he (Peter--Ed.) commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:48) versus Jesus--"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28:19). Are people to be baptized in the name of Jesus, the Lord, or in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost?
(5) Jesus--"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail" (Luke 16:17) and "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Matt. 5:18) and "the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do...." (Matt. 23:2-3) and (John 7:19) versus Peter--"And God knows the heart bore witness to them (the gentiles--Ed.), giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke (being circumcised and following the Old Law--Ed.) upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:8-10 RSV). Jesus said the Old Law would never fail till all be fulfilled. Yet, Peter considered adherence to it by all gentile converts to be an unnecessary yoke.
(6) Jesus--"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:23-24) and "Why doth this generation seek after a sign? Verily I say unto you, there shall no sign be given unto this generation" (Mark 8:12) versus Peter--"Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you,..." (Acts 2:22). Jesus stated that the ability to do miracles does not prove one is approved by God. False christs and false prophets can do as much. Yet, Peter said the ability to do miracles, wonders and signs proved one was approved by God. Jesus also said no sign would be given to his generation but Peter said the opposite occurred.
(7) Jesus--"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) versus Peter--"Who (Jesus--Ed.) is gone into heaven and is on the right hand of God...." (1 Peter 3:22) and (Acts 2:22). How two beings can be one, i.e. identical, while sitting beside one another is, indeed, perplexing.
(8) Jesus--"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life...." (John 6:54) and "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:27-29) versus Peter--"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Peter 2:20-22). Contrary to Jesus, Peter held that the "sheep" can be plucked out of the Father's hand. Those who have knowledge of Jesus can return to the "pollution of the world." They can accept Jesus and later reject him.
(9) Peter--"...but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean" (Acts 10:28) and "Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:7-9) and "Of a truth I perceive that God is not respecter of persons; But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35) and (Acts 10:43-45) versus Jesus--"...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not" (Matt. 10:5) and "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24) and "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs" (Matt. 15:26). Contrary to Peter, Jesus feels some are unclean and unworthy of his message.
(10) Peter--"The Lord is not...willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) versus Jesus--"He (the Lord--Ed.) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their hearts; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him" (John 12:40-41).


Peter vs. Paul


(1) Peter--"Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34) versus Paul--"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also the the Greek" (Rom. 1:16) and "But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentiles" (Rom. 2:10) and "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints" (Col. 1:26) and "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13) and "when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, he divided their land to them (the Israelites--Ed.) by lot" (Acts 13:19) and (Eph. 3:4-5). Apparently Paul doesn't concur in Peter's belief that God does not play favorites.
(2) Peter--"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you...." (Acts 2:22) versus Paul--"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders...." (2 Thess. 2:9). Paul's statement clearly shows that the ability to do signs and wonders can not prove one is approved of God as Peter alleges, unless Satan is approved of God. Satan and his agents can also do signs and wonders.
(3) Paul--"...and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 2:17) versus Peter--"Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (2 Peter 2:18). Telling people to willingly submit to their master regardless of the latter's behavior hardly fosters a spirit of liberty.
(4) Peter--"Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe" (Acts 15:7) versus Paul-- "...but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised--the Jews-- worked through me also for the Gentiles)" (Gal. 2:7-8 RSV). Peter and Paul can't even agree on who is to take the message to whom.


Peter vs. Himself


(1) "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34) and (1 Peter 1:17) versus "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9).
(2) "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29) versus "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers." (1 Peter 2:13-14).
(3) "God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2 Peter 2:4) versus "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8). How could the devil be walking around when he was chained in hell until judgment?


and still more to come.
 
*************
M*W: Excellent post! The problem is, we do not know what Jesus may have said. He NEVER said anything directly to Paul. Paul said that Jesus said to "get the behind me Satan." Peter was jealous of MM, who did, in fact, write about Jesus. The gnostic gospels are more truthful than the NT. Paul was friends with Luke, and Luke abandoned Paul and called him a liar. Paul and Peter in Rome had a falling out, and Paul blamed Peter, his former good buddy, to the authorities, and they killed both of them. Paul was a back-stabber from his birth. His parents were pagans. He was brought up a pagan -- not a Jew. He 'claimed' to be a rabbi, he claimed to be a pharisee, he even claimed to be the messiah. If you read between the lines of the NT, you will see how Paul was manipulating everyone he came in contact with. He even claimed to be a Sadducee! Jesus said nothing in the NT. All the words came out of Paul's mouth.
 
No one can say Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit. Please do not speak against the testimony of Paul. It is not wise and will not be forgiven you if you say the Spirit with which He speaks is an evil one. I too have received the Holy Spirit and can confirm the wisdom in Paul's words. But then you speak against me so what should I expect?

peace

c20
 
but your god is an evil one, and you always seem to forget we dont believe in god/gods, so why should we care, you only get one life, theres no heaven and no hell.

however it is what is written, in your bible that contradicts him.
which are your gods words, you say it's infallible.
 
mis-t-highs said:
but your god is an evil one, and you always seem to forget we dont believe in god/gods, so why should we care, you only get one life, theres no heaven and no hell.

however it is what is written, in your bible that contradicts him.
which are your gods words, you say it's infallible.

You do not know what you are saying mis-t-highs. If you did you would not say the things that you say.

peace

c20
 
the difference between me and you, is I control my own mind, so I do know exactly what I saying, I have no fear of attack by non-existence that is just plain stupid, so dont patronise me, you weak willed deluded fool.
 
c20H25N3o: No one can say Jesus is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit. Please do not speak against the testimony of Paul. It is not wise and will not be forgiven you if you say the Spirit with which He speaks is an evil one. I too have received the Holy Spirit and can confirm the wisdom in Paul's words. But then you speak against me so what should I expect?
*************
M*W: If you listen to and believe the words of Paul, there is no way you could be filled with the Holy Spirit. That's impossible. Paul was the first antichrist and you believe in what Paul said -- not Jesus! Therefore, you are filled with the spirit of Satan -- who is quite the clever sort -- Satan has convinced you unequivocally that what you believe in (christianity) has saved your soul. There's no hell for atheists, but there surely is one for you. Do some reading outside the satan-inspired bible and maybe you will find the truth -- and the truth will set you free.



peace

c20[/QUOTE]
 
Medicine Woman said:
There's no hell for atheists, but there surely is one for you. Do some reading outside the satan-inspired bible and maybe you will find the truth -- and the truth will set you free.

The satan-inspired bible? Satan would have to be pretty stupid to introduce the Son of God and then prophecy his own downfall would he not? Satan would have to be completely dumb to speak of the ressurection of Christ and even dumber to push people towards their Father God through the message of Jesus.
How can Satan be both for and against Jesus? Please explain why the bible is Satan-Inspired? I am very much looking forward to your replies. If you do quote from the good book, please be sure to put everything in its proper context.

Thanks

c20
 
You start a thread called 'regarding the bible' and then seek to ban people who do not agree with you. Grow up a bit.

peace

c20
 
c20H25N3o said:
The satan-inspired bible? Satan would have to be pretty stupid to introduce the Son of God and then prophecy his own downfall would he not? Satan would have to be completely dumb to speak of the ressurection of Christ and even dumber to push people towards their Father God through the message of Jesus.
How can Satan be both for and against Jesus? Please explain why the bible is Satan-Inspired? I am very much looking forward to your replies. If you do quote from the good book, please be sure to put everything in its proper context.

Thanks

c20

C20, nobody is going to be able to prove to you that the Bible was "inspired by Satan". But, to me, the reasoning is, if there is really a Satan, or an evil force, what reason do you have to believe the Bible is not from that force? Don't some Christians consider other religions to be basically Satanic? But do they preach evil or good? If they don't preach evil, how are they inspired by Satan? If there is a Satan and he is as the Bible describes, at least by Paul, then he can transform himself into an angel of light, can't he? Some Christians believe the Qur'an is from Satan. Yet it preaches against Satan. How does Satan preach against Satan?

What MW is saying, in my opinion, is that there are some things in the Bible that do not seem "good". So while there may be some good moral thoughts in it, there are some things which God supposedly does which appear to be "immoral", to some of us.
 
c20 heres a little fable, to teach you that, not everything is true,so wise up.


The Thief and the Innkeeper


A THIEF hired a room in a tavern and stayed a while in the hope
of stealing something which should enable him to pay his
reckoning. When he had waited some days in vain, he saw the
Innkeeper dressed in a new and handsome coat and sitting before
his door. The Thief sat down beside him and talked with him. As
the conversation began to flag, the Thief yawned terribly and at
the same time howled like a wolf. The Innkeeper said, "Why do
you howl so fearfully?' "I will tell you," said the Thief, "but
first let me ask you to hold my clothes, or I shall tear them to
pieces. I know not, sir, when I got this habit of yawning, nor
whether these attacks of howling were inflicted on me as a
judgment for my crimes, or for any other cause; but this I do
know, that when I yawn for the third time, I actually turn into a
wolf and attack men." With this speech he commenced a second fit
of yawning and again howled like a wolf, as he had at first. The
Innkeeper. hearing his tale and believing what he said, became
greatly alarmed and, rising from his seat, attempted to run away.
The Thief laid hold of his coat and entreated him to stop,
saying, "Pray wait, sir, and hold my clothes, or I shall tear
them to pieces in my fury, when I turn into a wolf." At the same
moment he yawned the third time and set up a terrible howl. The
Innkeeper, frightened lest he should be attacked, left his new
coat in the Thief's hand and ran as fast as he could into the inn
for safety. The Thief made off with the coat and did not return
again to the inn.


Every tale is not to be believed
 
I do not see how a tale regarding a swindler can be applied to one man pouring out His blood in obedience to God's will. But as I have said many times The Preacher - you are more than entitled to reject the bible and call it lies. You have free will after all.

peace

c20
 
anonymous2 said:
C20, nobody is going to be able to prove to you that the Bible was "inspired by Satan". But, to me, the reasoning is, if there is really a Satan, or an evil force, what reason do you have to believe the Bible is not from that force? Don't some Christians consider other religions to be basically Satanic? But do they preach evil or good? If they don't preach evil, how are they inspired by Satan? If there is a Satan and he is as the Bible describes, at least by Paul, then he can transform himself into an angel of light, can't he? Some Christians believe the Qur'an is from Satan. Yet it preaches against Satan. How does Satan preach against Satan?

What MW is saying, in my opinion, is that there are some things in the Bible that do not seem "good". So while there may be some good moral thoughts in it, there are some things which God supposedly does which appear to be "immoral", to some of us.

Believe what you will. I discern the will of God as the Spirit allows and I know He is the Creator of all that there is including little old me. I put my trust in Him therefore. I ought not be blamed or despised for my belief nor condemned for speaking of it. You are more than entitled to pull it apart but it is actually against the rules of the forum to call me delusional for my beliefs. But you all knew this right?

peace

c20
 
c20H25N3o said:
Believe what you will. I discern the will of God as the Spirit allows and I know He is the Creator of all that there is including little old me. I put my trust in Him therefore. I ought not be blamed or despised for my belief nor condemned for speaking of it. You are more than entitled to pull it apart but it is actually against the rules of the forum to call me delusional for my beliefs. But you all knew this right?

peace

c20

Well, for one, did I say you were delusional? Or did I merely give the possibility that you were wrong? There's a difference, isn't there? And if you wish to claim that I'm doing something against the rules, this is somewhat humorous to me, considering how you called people a "brood of vipers". And you apologized for your how you treated people afterward, didn't you? Do you remember this? If you can show me anywhere that I've called you delusional, I'd like to see it. I expressed my opinion, and gave my opinion of what MW meant by what she said. I didn't condemn you for your opinion. I didn't blame you for your opinion. I don't despise you for your opinion. If you have read my posts, didn't I DEFEND YOU?! And how many non-Christians besides me, have DEFENDED YOU?! But I don't blindly defend you, I also express MY viewpoint. Is there anything wrong with this?
 
Last edited:
anonymous2 said:
Well, for one, did I say you were delusional? Or did I merely give the possibility that you were wrong? There's a difference, isn't there? And if you wish to claim that I'm doing something against the rules, this is somewhat humorous to me, considering how you called people a "brood of vipers". And you apologized for your how you treated people afterward, didn't you? Do you remember this? If you can show me anywhere that I've called you delusional, I'd like to see it. I expressed my opinion, and gave my opinion of what MW meant by what she said. I didn't condemn you for your opinion. I didn't blame you for your opinion. I don't despise you for your opinion. If you have read my posts, didn't I DEFEND YOU?! And how many non-Christians besides me, have DEFENDED YOU?! But I don't blindly defend you, I also express MY viewpoint. Is there anything wrong with this?

It just seems luke warm to sit on the fence anonymous2. I am aware that you have not called me delusional but I wish you would either agree wholeheartedly with M*W or come right out and confess Jesus as Lord. It seems cowardly to try and mediate when there clearly cannot be fellowship between M*W and I given our utterly contrasting views of the bible and particualry the role of St Paul in God's plan for man's salvation.
I am not trying to appease anyone, I am just speaking the truth of the Christian faith, warts and all.

peace

c20
 
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