Recent Religions: Hallucination or Lies

So far, no Poster has answered the basic question I asked in Post #1
We can never determine exactly what was said/claimed by religious leaders from 2000 or more years ago.

There are some more modern religious beliefs which have been documented: Are these hallucinations or deliberate lies?
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The examples I gave were Joseph Smith (Mormon) & Emanuel Swedenborg.

Smith claimed to have discovered golden tablets & magic spectacles which allowed him to
read them. The language was not some human language & I think (not sure) Smith was
illiterate. He read the tablets to an associate who wrote the Book of the Mormon faith. It was
claimed that the tablets & spectacles disappeared (reclaimed by god, perhaps).

Swedenborg claimed to have had revelations from god. Among other information, he claimed that god told him about inhabitants on Mars & other planets with cultures similar to those on Earth.​

While hallucinations are a reasonable explanation, I suspect deliberate lies. I have no opinion relating to motivation for the lies, although a shrink, a psychologist, or a sociologist might have worthwhile opinions on this issue.
 
BTW: I deliberately Posted in a non-religious Thread, because I thought the issue was more psychological or sociological than religious.

A moderator moved the Thread.

I was interested in opinions from Posters not likely to pay attention to the Religion forum.

I probably should have mentioned my motivation for not Posting in the Religion forum.
 
Dinosaur said:
We can never determine exactly what was said/claimed by religious leaders from 2000 or more years ago.

For example: Did Christ’s contemporary followers actually claim that he walked on water or performed other miracles?

Did contemporaries actually claim that Ezekiel saw some mechanical device (a wheel) in the sky?
​

I suspect deliberate lying.
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Walking in water : Mathew was a contemporary, why don't you believe
A wheel is a mechanical device the Egyptian were earlier the Ezekiel they must have had call it primitive mechanical devised to move large stones in the building the pyramids
Friend you make your own choice to believe or not . O make my choice not to believe that before BB there was nothing and it is a lie
 
I don't think they are either hallucinations or lies. They're just subjective experiences. The same root of ancient shamanism and later oral mythic traditions. It's just that these ones are so new and recent that they lack the perception of validity by the general public. They've come into being "after" the closing of the age of myth, and fall within the age of literature and investigation. So they are degraded or ignored.
I don't necessarily agree with or believe them. But I am open to their experiences being true for them.
 
From TimOjin Post # 23
Walking in water : Mathew was a contemporary, why don't you believe

A wheel is a mechanical device the Egyptian were earlier the Ezekiel they must have had call it primitive mechanical devised to move large stones in the building the pyramids
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Is English your second language? The second sentence above is a bit strange.

I do not think that Matthew was a contemporary of Jesus. Mark was & I wonder why his gospel was second in the New Testament since it probably was written prior to Matthew’s.

I do not believe that Jesus walked on water: Apparently you do believe.

I question the Ezekiel account because it refers to a wheel overhead, not one rolling on the ground.
 
From Hapsburg Post # 24
I don't think they are either hallucinations or lies. They're just subjective experiences.
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Unless you believe that Smith found golden tablets & that Swedenborg actually had revelations from god, the experiences were either hallucinations or lies.

BTW: Swedonberg claimed that god told him about Martian civilizations similar to those on Earth. It seems strange that god would tell lies about the existence of Martian civilizations.

Being an atheist, I am not accusing god of lying, I am merely being a bit sarcastic.​
 
Dinosaur said:
Unless you believe that Smith found golden tablets & that Swedenborg actually had revelations from god, the experiences were either hallucinations or lies.
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There world isn't that black and white.
 
Hapsburg: From your Post # 27
There world isn't that black and white.
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The above was a reply to my Post #26
Unless you believe that Smith found golden tablets & that Swedenborg actually had revelations from god, the experiences were either hallucinations or lies.
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Is there some gray MindScape which allows for another alternative?
 
Yes. Perception and experience are subjective. Where there is subjectivity, you have a gray area. I don't have an absolutist mindset about "truth".
All we have to go on, to construct a model for reality, is our own experience and perceptions, and experimental science and measurement. And since the perception of having visions cannot be measured, it falls into the other category of subjective experience. To say that they're hallucinations assumes that it's not possible for it to be true; but accepting that it's true for another person doesn't necessarily mean that it's true for me or you. And saying that they're lies assumes that the people who made the claims are being disingenuous, which isn't necessarily true. They're just experiencing something that you or I didn't.
 
Hapsburg said:
Yes. Perception and experience are subjective. Where there is subjectivity, you have a gray area. I don't have an absolutist mindset about "truth".
All we have to go on, to construct a model for reality, is our own experience and perceptions, and experimental science and measurement. And since the perception of having visions cannot be measured, it falls into the other category of subjective experience. To say that they're hallucinations assumes that it's not possible for it to be true; but accepting that it's true for another person doesn't necessarily mean that it's true for me or you. And saying that they're lies assumes that the people who made the claims are being disingenuous, which isn't necessarily true. They're just experiencing something that you or I didn't.
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Very beautiful point of view.
 
From Hapsburg Post #29
To say that they're hallucinations assumes that it's not possible for it to be true; but accepting that it's true for another person doesn't necessarily mean that it's true for me or you.
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This Thread relates to two claims
Smith claimed to have discovered golden tablets & magic spectacles which allowed him to read them. The language was not some human language & I think (not sure) Smith was illiterate. He read the tablets to an associate who wrote the Book of the Mormon faith. It was claimed that the tablets & spectacles disappeared (reclaimed by god, perhaps).

Swedenborg claimed to have had revelations from god. Among other information, he claimed that god told him about inhabitants on Mars & other planets with cultures similar to those on Earth.
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Do you consider either of the above to be possibly true?
 
timojin said:
Walking in water : Mathew was a contemporary, why don't you believe
A wheel is a mechanical device the Egyptian were earlier the Ezekiel they must have had call it primitive mechanical devised to move large stones in the building the pyramids
Friend you make your own choice to believe or not . O make my choice not to believe that before BB there was nothing and it is a lie
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Matthew the disciple was not the author of the Book of Matthew in the Bible.
 
Dinosaur said:
This Thread relates to two claims
Do you consider either of the above to be possibly true?
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Since their claims are beyond the scope of scientific investigation and evidence, and are based on subjective experiences, it is possible. They can't exactly be put to the test and demonstrated one way or the other in an objective way.
But, in the end, my beliefs and experiences align elsewhere from either of those claims. I'm a polytheist, and a practitioner of a reconstruction of Roman syncretic religion. So what Swedenborg claimed or the Mormons claimed doesn't really matter to me.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
This is "true" only if there is, indeed, a Creator.

This is a place of science and we try to enforce the Rule of Laplace, one of the cornerstones of the Scientific Method:
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I don't know any working scientists who use this heuristic. Extraordinary is not a quantifiable term and open to all sorts of subjective, read non-measurement based, subjective interpretation. It certainly plays out in the way scientists (and others) react to research conclusions, models, assertions, etc. that do not fit whatever the current consensus, models or beliefs are in the scientific community, but it is decidely not a cornerstone. It is utterly unnecessary to think of it when planning and carrying out experimentation. It works as a kind of sociological observation of what happens when new information, models, conclusions that challenge consensus assumption come out. Further....
  • An extraordinary assertion must be supported by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat it with respect.
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    This is Carl Sagan, not Laplace. If you think this is a useful shorthand for Laplace's Rule of Succession, it isn't.
 
From Hapsburg Post #34
Since their claims are beyond the scope of scientific investigation and evidence, and are based on subjective experiences, it is possible. They can't exactly be put to the test and demonstrated one way or the other in an objective way.
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The above indicates that you believe that the following claims could be true.
Smith claimed to have discovered golden tablets & magic spectacles which allowed him to read them. The language was not some human language & I think (not sure) Smith was illiterate. He read the tablets to an associate who wrote the Book of the Mormon faith. It was claimed that the tablets & spectacles disappeared (reclaimed by god, perhaps).

Swedenborg claimed to have had revelations from god. Among other information, he claimed that god told him about inhabitants on Mars & other planets with cultures similar to those on Earth.
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Do you really believe that either of the above claims could be true?

BTW: Most theists would be very upset by the claim that god stated that cultures similar to those on Earth existed on Mars & other planets. It is not often that I (an atheist) find theists agreeing with me on a theological issue.
 
Dinosaur said:
Do you really believe that either of the above claims could be true?
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I don't know why you keep asking the literal same question over and over again.

BTW: Most theists would be very upset by the claim that god stated that cultures similar to those on Earth existed on Mars & other planets.
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Most theists you meet are probably monotheists who think that Earth and humanity is ultra-special.
 
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