Read the Bible: regardless of your beliefs

How can an agnostic become even more skeptical?

An agnostic is already as skeptical as it is possible to be.
No, an athiest is as skeptical as it is possible to be.
And even still, I'm almost postive that there are varying levels of skepticism within agnosticism. I'm more on the athiestic side of agnosticism. The guy who wrote that article seems to have been more on the theistic side.

If a person read the Bible and then became 'even more skeptical', then this is indicative that the person has not started out as an agnostic,
but already had some particular position on the topics discussed in the Bible.
Like me. I was raised a baptist.

An agnostic cannot be moved one way or another; unless he first gives up his agnosticism.
Wrong. See my comment about varying levels of skepticism.
 
Well.. quite a few of those responses were based on ignorance rather than anything else.

Starting with the actually intelligent response and working on down...


Iceaura

As a work of fiction, especially in the King James version, it has a great deal of value - some of it historical. As does, you mention, the Odyssey, and one might add the Norse Eddas, the Mabinogion, the Tale of Genji, Beowulf, the Bhagavad Gita, and so forth.

Indeed, all of those are of very good use when looking at their historical content. I am a big fan of Beowulf, and while I do not believe in dragons, the wealth of detail in the saga is extremely interesting. The hall Heorot, the tradition of ring giving as well as the names and backgrounds given.... all quite authentic despite centuries of alterations.



mikenostic


If you have half a brain in your head, you should know that history can be forged, skewed and altered to suit whoever was in charge at the time.
The bible is no different.

Sigh... I like to think that I do have at least half a brain... and my degree is in history, so you would think that I know a bit about it.

While individual documents may lie, you rarely have only one document to rely on.... and even the lies help you find the truth.

A good example is the document called "The donation of Constantine". You can look it up if you want. The document is an obvious forgery, however it's influence on history is quite genuine and it does tell you a great deal about the forger, his education and the status of the church at the time.

Every piece of evidence about the past, whether a lie or not, is information and therefore valuable.


Lastly...


swarm


1. The Bible includes a huge amount of day to day information.

none of which is reliable

All of which is reliable after you have tested the info against other documents and against archeological evidence.

The Bible serves as a guide, not a rulebook and is only one of many. However, it would be stupid to ignore any source, especially one that was so influential.



There is little from the period that can tell us that other than the bible.

except for actual letters and documents from real people.

Do you have any?

There are some, but not many and again always limited in scope. After two thousand years, not a lot remains sadly.

I am not saying that the Bible is the only source... but it is a source.



2. The Bible has had a marked influence on history as a whole.

So did dirt but there isn't any need to wallow in it.

However, we do study dirt. It's called geology.


its ok for an unreliable Tertiary source.

It really depends on what it is you are studying.

If you want to learn about Jerusalem in the 1st century AD, then archeology is your best bet along with some documentation. The Bible serves as a narrative guide more than anything else.

If you want to learn about the Middle Ages and what people believed .... you must read the Bible, it's a requirement. So much of what happened in the Middle Ages is base on the Bible that you could not understand it otherwise. It would be like studying the Muslim empire without knowing about the Koran, or an in depth study of any people without understanding their religion.

If you don't care about the Bible.. no big deal.

However, if you want to learn about the Christian past...you have to care.

This has nothing to do with a value judgment on the religion itself. It's about knowledge... not faith.
 
Sigh... I like to think that I do have at least half a brain... and my degree is in history, so you would think that I know a bit about it.

While individual documents may lie, you rarely have only one document to rely on.... and even the lies help you find the truth.

A good example is the document called "The donation of Constantine". You can look it up if you want. The document is an obvious forgery, however it's influence on history is quite genuine and it does tell you a great deal about the forger, his education and the status of the church at the time.

Every piece of evidence about the past, whether a lie or not, is information and therefore valuable.

I'm not quite understanding where you are going with this. It seems you are agreeing with me/stating the obvious.

Allow me to use one example of mistranslation. The parting of the Red Sea. The orignal text was translated from 'Sea of red'. However, it was supposed to be sea of reeds (you know that tall grass that grows near beaches?).

Have you ever seen that show on the History Channel, Banned from the Bible?
You're going to sit there and tell me that the clergies who decided this never, ever once banned a book from the bible to suit their own agenda?
They did. You'll never convince me otherwise.
The only thing this does for me is show me that the bible has very little literal credibility.
 
You'll never convince me otherwise.

Then don't bother discussing anything. Just get a soapbox and start shouting. Discussion is for people who are open to argument.. not just blind repetition of their own views.


The only thing this does for me is show me that the bible has very little literal credibility.

Am I saying that the Bible should be taken literally?

Of course not.

I am quite well aware of how it was written and when.

However, if you are trying to say that it has no historical value at all... then you are mistaken.

Here is a good example...

Ever read Shakespeare?

Very good read and full of great info on the times. However, are you aware on how much of it was changed over the years?

Quite a lot.

Shakespeare should not be held as being genuine.

Neither should the Bible.


Both are quite interesting in their own way.
 
Then don't bother discussing anything. Just get a soapbox and start shouting. Discussion is for people who are open to argument.. not just blind repetition of their own views.
Look if you're not going to acknowledge that the first and second century clergymen could very well possibly have altered and omitted (possibly valid, history changing informational) books from the bible to suit their own agenda or what they thought god told them to do, then don't bother discussing it with me either.
I told Orly in another thead and I'll tell you. If you can't open your mind up enough to see other people's pov's and how they think the way they do, then I don't want to discuss anything with you anyway. You don't see my pov, I won't see yours either.
Discussion is for people who are open to argument; it's also for people who are diverse enough to see things from others' perspectives, even if they staunchly disagree with them.


Am I saying that the Bible should be taken literally?

Of course not.
I didn't know. That's why I was asking you, and assuming we were more or less in agreement.

I am quite well aware of how it was written and when.

However, if you are trying to say that it has no historical value at all... then you are mistaken.
Oh no, I feel that the bible is one of the most historically valuable books out there, but no, you can't take it literally. I think you're delusional if you do take it literally.

Here is a good example...

Ever read Shakespeare?

Very good read and full of great info on the times. However, are you aware on how much of it was changed over the years?

Quite a lot.

Shakespeare should not be held as being genuine.

Neither should the Bible.


Both are quite interesting in their own way.
I agree. But unfortunately way too many people on this planet DO take the bible literally.
 
lol...

Look if you're not going to acknowledge that the first and second century clergymen could very well possibly have altered and omitted (possibly valid, history changing informational) books from the bible to suit their own agenda or what they thought god told them to do, then don't bother discussing it with me either.

Look... not only do I acknowledge that the Bible was heavily altered, edited, cut and pasted from the moment it was written (likely quite a long time after the fact and not likely by the apostles), but I can likely tell you quite a bit about who did it and when as well.

What I object to is statements like.. "then don't bother discussing it with me either."

I don't much care for those.


I do not take the Bible literally, but I do know it quite well. I also read the Koran and a number of other religious texts, including the apocryphas. All of which help in understanding the people and times I am studying.
 
All of which is reliable after you have tested the info against other documents and against archeological evidence.

Actually very little of which is reliable compared with actual archeology.

Do you have any?
Here you go: http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/

I am not saying that the Bible isn't a source... but it is a crappy source.

Dates known to be wrong. "Victories" where the Jews lost according to every one else. Unfounded and unsupportable claims, like exodus. Obvious forgeries. Customs wrong. Jesus' burial scene in particular is a huge mess.

However, we do study dirt. It's called geology.

Geologists mainly do rocks. The soil people are pedologists and edaphologists.

The Bible serves as a narrative guide more than anything else.

Actually that's close. The bible is like the crazy homeless guy giving you directions.
 
The bible really isn't that impressive.

Na. It is quite impressive. In which single tome would you find so many contradictions, absurdities etc? One author could hardly write a para without either contradicting himself or the next author.
 
I did read it . It was a nice story but the first part there was a really angry God that was very bad to everyone but in the second half God was nice to everyone. The book is a rather ambiguous story about a myth that humans, mostly men, have written as some kind of "guide" to life. But it is so full of inconsistencies,hypocritical crap, fiction, lies and threats that I cannot believe that anyone can really understand it without scratching their heads in bewilderment and amazement. Taken as a mythological book it makes little sense as well.
 
http://www.slate.com/id/2212616/?gt1=38001

Very interesting article.
Even though I'm agnostic like the author, I share his belief in reading the bible regardless of your beliefs. Read it in the same fashion you would read any other book of information.

What does that tell you when an agnostic reads the bible from cover to cover and becomes more skeptical?

His spirit loves evil more than it loves good.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
His spirit loves evil more than it loves good.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
No, his spirit loves the truth more than it loves anything else.

Until you, and any other Christian on this planet can prove god exists, you can't make presumptuous statements like that...a pretty arrogant statement if you ask me.
 
No, his spirit loves the truth more than it loves anything else.

Until you, and any other Christian on this planet can prove god exists, you can't make presumptuous statements like that...a pretty arrogant statement if you ask me.

I will make whatever statement i believe is true.

You can tag it whatever way you wish.

God has and will prove Himself to those who have a love for the truth.

All the rest can run around like chickens with their heads cut off. They will run here and run there but they will be running nowhere fast and will never find anything of value, all they will find is death.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
You believing it doesn't make it true. It is obviously mostly false.
You made a biased insulting statement about a group of people without backing it up. As usual, based on ignorance, arrogance, hate & fear. You go on & on making statements you can't prove.
God hasn't proven anything. You don't love the truth. You love fooling yourself & attempting to fool others.
You called me evil. STOP that now.
 
Back
Top