Quran: the truth & deceptions

T

The_Omniscient

Registered Member
Dear Fellows;

I have found that Quran is a book which could be regarded as a true divine revelation. What do you say about it? Do you agree or disagree?

Regards
A well wisher
 
It's too long to be a devine revelation. Such experiences are often beyond words, and the best expressions of it are short. I think it's a method of social organization, a way of accumulating the wisdom of generations, a rival to the bible and other such works, and a substitute for natural wisdom.
 
Dear Spidergoat;

It's too long to be a devine revelation.
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If you observe the mode of revelations, you would find the fact that each revelation lasted long for hardly 9 to 10 minutes. The Quran was revealed step by step not alltogether at once. Thats why the Quran was not gathered in the book form untill the death of Prophet after which it was compiled in a book form.

Dear Scorpius;

how do you explain all these contradictions,?
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm
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Well, these are too many and i have often read them. I feel that it would be more proper if you point out any particular verse so i could explain you accordingly.

Regards
A well wisher
 
I mean that it's not simple. It's obviously one man's opinion of how he thinks people should act rather than a universal devine truth.
 
It is obviously not a divine revelation for so many reasons, in addition to those already mentioned.
Also can the koran be translated perfectly to another language?
 
Sock puppet path said:
Also can the koran be translated perfectly to another language?
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No

No one can replicate the format or the original text or get even close to it. Mohammed himself was illiterate and never had any schooling so it is widely accepted by all scholars that he could NOT have written this himself. The Quran is something which is so profoundly poetic and 'clever' in technique that nothing has matched it since (even shakespear).

So the question remains, if Mohammed did not compose the Quran who (or what) did?

Bearing in mind the Quran took 22 yrs to compose, was told verbally from Mohammed to scholars to write down on his behalf.

Who spent 22 yrs passing this this information drip by drip to Mohammed. How was he able to memorise it? It is probably the greatest religious conundrum in existance as no one has come up with a satisfactory or even any explanation. :)
 
Theoryofrelativity said:
No

No one can replicate the format or the original text or get even close to it. Mohammed himself was illiterate and never had any schooling so it is widely accepted by all scholars that he could NOT have written this himself.
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Irrelevant he could simply dictate or as I have read the quran was an oral tradition until codefied and standardized by Uthman.

The Quran is something which is so profoundly poetic and 'clever' in technique that nothing has matched it since (even shakespear).
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This is one of those "just take my word for it" deals since I don't do arabic. I have read most of the english version and finding sorely lacking in beauty and poetry.

So the question remains, if Mohammed did not compose the Quran who (or what) did?
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Mohammed. The book specifically makes Muhammed head of state, the beneficiary of 20% of all war booty (real divine that), the only member of the state who is permited more than 4 wives etc. etc ;)

Bearing in mind the Quran took 22 yrs to compose, was told verbally from Mohammed to scholars to write down on his behalf.

Who spent 22 yrs passing this this information drip by drip to Mohammed. How was he able to memorise it? It is probably the greatest religious conundrum in existance as no one has come up with a satisfactory or even any explanation. :)
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Actually I see absolutely nothing impressive about this does an author tend to write a good long book in a year or two? Usually not. What I think would have been more impressive is if he went to the cave for a month and came back with the entire quran.

Also you sound like you buy into the idea that the quran is divine so I assume you've said the Shahada then, yes :p
 
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Theoryofrelativity said:
No

No one can replicate the format or the original text or get even close to it. Mohammed himself was illiterate and never had any schooling so it is widely accepted by all scholars that he could NOT have written this himself. The Quran is something which is so profoundly poetic and 'clever' in technique that nothing has matched it since (even shakespear).
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That's Shakespeare. And no, MacBeth doesn't translate well into Arabic. Funny how you can comment such on something you've never read?

So the question remains, if Mohammed did not compose the Quran who (or what) did?
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Muhammad did, isn't that obvious?

Bearing in mind the Quran took 22 yrs to compose, was told verbally from Mohammed to scholars to write down on his behalf.

Who spent 22 yrs passing this this information drip by drip to Mohammed. How was he able to memorise it? It is probably the greatest religious conundrum in existance as no one has come up with a satisfactory or even any explanation. :)
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If he made it up himself, would that explanation satisfy your one-dimensional thinking that it was the "greatest religious conundrum in existance?"
 
The test for the Quran as divine revelation is surely quite simple. It was written after both the Old and New Testaments. We have copies of these documents written before and after the Quaran which agree but the Quaran quotes from both of them inaccurately. In many cases it confuses characters and dates from the books in question. It also shows a lack of understanding of the core beliefs of either Jews or Christians.

A couple of simple examples are where the Ark landed and where Abraham lived.

The Quran states that Moses was adopted byPharaoh's wife. Jewish scriptures (written long before) state his daughter.

There are some factual impossibilities such as 'The golden calf was suggested by "the Samaritan" (Sura 20:87-95). Samaritans did not exist until many centuries later.

It is claimed in Sura 19:28 that Mary was Aaron's sister (actually separated by about 1500 years and presumably a confusion with Miriam).

Other claims are that Christians believe prayer should be toward Jerusalem (Sura 2 144-5) - when??

Surah 5:72 states that Christains believe the Messiah's name is Allah (often disguised in English by tanslating Allah in this case as 'God'.

The Quran claims that speeches were made by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Mary and even Jesus that contain words such as: "Muslim" and "Islam" that were in a totally unknown tongue and not invented for at least another 600 years (Suras 2:60, 126-128, 132-133, 260; 3:49-52, 67; 6:74-82; 7:59-63, 120-126 etc.). This is again often hidden in some English translations by using standard English words instead of the transliterated Arabic words but it can be confirmed by checking the transliterated original Arabic words.

These are but a few of many examples.

According to itself, the authorship of the book is a little uncertain.
Was it Allah (Suras 53:2-18; 81:19-24), or the holy spirit (Suras 16:102; 26:192-194), or Angels (Sura 15:8), or just the Angel Gabriel (Sura 2:97)?

It is very difficult to take seriously the claim that this book represents the revealed word of an omniscient being with this level of categorically provable factual error and self contradiction contained within it.


kind regards to all,


Gordon.
 
Sock puppet path said:
Also you sound like you buy into the idea that the quran is divine so I assume you've said the Shahada then, yes :p
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Actually sock master, I think no such thing I just think it is a fascinating mystery and one worthy of a good blockbuster film at least! Trouble with the west, the fear prevents proper acknowledgement of the nature of the text. The english version will be poo, you try translating poetry and getting the same rhthum and rhyme, it's impossible. Meanwhile there is no argument Mohammed DID not write it (or dicate it from his own knowledge) as he was illiterate and couldn't compose any kind of 'ditty' this is generally accepted so not my argument. A mystery is all, so stop fearing!
 
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/dyktb.html

I haven't read all this, and NOTE: I do not say that the Quran is the word of God, just that it does present a mystery which if you google is what you will find yourselves...I din't make it up. I am NOT afraid to mention it like you atheists are as I have no issues withthis religion :) I just reject them all. Doesn't mean I pretend everything is bollocks like you all try to convince yourselves.

"When the revelation of the Qur'an commenced in 622 A.D., it was a linguistic miracle. The Qur'an has a challenge in it. The challenge is for anybody to produce some thing like or similar to the Qur'an.

This challenge was present in the Qur'an in Sura no. 17, verse no. 88 which is translated as follows:

" Say: If the whole of mankind and Jinn were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they back up each other with help and support."
Years passed and nobody was able to meet the challenge. Later (after several years) the challenge in the Qur'an was eased asking for anyone to produce even ten Suras like those in it. This was in the Quran in Sura no. 11, verse no. 13 which is translated as follows:


" or they may say, "He forged it" Say, "Bring ye then ten Suras forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can, other than Allah! If ye speak the truth"
Again years passed and nobody was able to successfully meet the challenge. Later the challenge was eased for the second time to produce one Sura like or similar to the Suras in the Qur'an. The challenge (to anyone) to produce one Sura was presented in the Qur'an in more than a Sura, one of them was in Sura no. 2, Verse no. 23 which is translated as follows:


"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, if what you say is true."
Since then, more than fourteen hundred years have passed, and nobody has been able to meet the challenge, and nobody will, because the Qur'an is the only existing book containing the word of Allah which no man can match or imitate. The most eloquent people in the Arabic language spent years going over and searching the Qur'an, trying to find any weak or inadequate word or sentence, but they could not. They even went further, trying to find a way to substitute a word or a sentence in the Qur'an, hoping to convey a similar meaning as the original one, but they failed to do so.

As a result of this, many people, especially linguists, throughout the last fourteen hundred years believed in the Qur'an as a revelation beyond any human capacity.

............................

But the Qur'an has something else for the modern ages. Some people have noticed that there are many facts about the science of astronomy, human reproduction and other scientific fields in the Qur'an.

Modern scientists have been amazed by the accuracy of scientific information presented in the Quran. Some people wrote books about this phenomenon which attracted the attention of many people in the west - both Muslims and Non- Muslims

I think it's interesting is all, and rather than watch Jesus movies I'd be interested to see one re the Quran mystery and maybe one about P Mohammed too. He was afterall a historical figure. Whether he spoke the word of God or not, he achieved a heck of a lot for an illiterate in his lifetime.
I make no comment on re bad or good achievements and don't be putting words in my mouth unless you can copy and paste evidence re what you think I think! I know how you all just love to tell me what i think ;)
 
Actually there is some research being done on the origins of the quran but of course very little in islamic countries as this tends to end with the head being separated from the body (witness Ali Dashti).
Mohammed ran his first wife's business and the muslim state he created being illiterate does not automatically make someone unintelligent.

Some dittys

Scholars dare to look into origins of Quran

Ibn Warraq

What is the quran

Academics have been denied access to the Yemeni sana horde quran...why?

Do you happen to notice when you google practically ALL the miraculous quran info you get is from muslim sites....If you google nazism you will find that nazi sites love it :p
 
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Sock puppet path said:
Do you happen to notice when you google practically ALL the miraculous quran info you get is from muslim sites....If you google nazism you will find that nazi sites love it :p
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well I guess that just proves how little the west knows then doesn't it? So we cannot presume to KNOW that which we do not. So calling the whole thing bollocks because west hasn't got much to say on the matter isn't exactly what you call hard evidence now is it? Just demonstrates either lack of interest or desire to bury the truth. Makes it all the more a mystery...bring on the film!
 
Sock puppet path said:
What is the quran
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First link..page error, meanwhile this link looks interesting, will read that later :)

Btw, the quran has some predictions in it re this time period which are coming to pass. Stuff that would have been unimaginable and in realms of supernatural way back then! But actually quite the norm today, ie 'men become women' ;) well transexuals were not that common 2000 yrs ago (ie. population zero!) but is happenning now? Bring on the film!!
 
Theoryofrelativity said:
well I guess that just proves how little the west knows then doesn't it? So we cannot presume to KNOW that which we do not. So calling the whole thing bollocks because west hasn't got much to say on the matter isn't exactly what you call hard evidence now is it? Just demonstrates either lack of interest or desire to bury the truth. Makes it all the more a mystery...bring on the film!
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As I said I have read most of it so your "the west" comments don't really apply. A film that's a laugh who's gonna dare to portray mohammed :D It would at least be action packed with lots of blood and fighting.
 
Sock puppet path said:
As I said I have read most of it so your "the west" comments don't really apply. A film that's a laugh who's gonna dare to portray mohammed :D It would at least be action packed with lots of blood and fighting.
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indeed! We have films depicting every other notable hisorical figure why not Mohammed? If those concerned could agree on the history then I reckon it'd be very as you say 'action' packed.

Meanwhile, is it possible Mohammeds wife dictated the Quran? She was literate and highly intelligent.

Could Muslim scholar please confirm if it is against your religion to make historical film depicting Prophet Mohammed please?
 
Actually there is some research being done on the origins of the quran but of course very little in islamic countries as this tends to end with the head being separated from the body...
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It's the same with the original question. They ask in a sincere way if you too feel that the Quran is the perfect eternal truth, and if not they can then feel just fine about killing you. It's like "oh well, I tried".
 
Theoryofrelativity said:
Could Muslim scholar please confirm if it is against your religion to make historical film depicting Prophet Mohammed please?
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There is nothing in the quran forbidding it but in hadith there is..Bukhari if I am not mistaken.
Word Spider ;)
 
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