Quetzalcoatl

[Trilairian]

The Aztec Quetzalcoatl god or the fethered or plumed serpent god is being claimed as proof of Mormonism because the book of mormon has it that Jesus visited the Americas after his ressurection and because Quetzalcoatl is said to have characteristics in common with Jesus. From:
http://www.meridianmagazine.com/articles/030926white.html

1. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were recognized as creator of all things. (Mosiah 4:2; Saenz 1962:19, 40)

2. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were born of virgins. (Alma 7: 10; Gamiz 95)

3. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl are described as being white or as wearing a white robe. (3 Nephi 11:8; Torquemada 47)

4. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl performed miracles. (3 Nephi 26:15; Sejourne 136‑137)

5. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl taught the ordinance of baptism. (3 Nephi 11:23; Irwin 1963:170)

6. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl prophesied of future events. (Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

7. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were universal as opposed to just being recognized as local gods. (3 Nephi 16: 1; Sejourne 1962)

8. A great destruction was associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl at exactly the same time period in history. (3 Nephi 8:5; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

9. The cross was a symbol to both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 27:14; Irwin 1963:165)

10. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl sent out disciples to preach their word. (3 Nephi 12:1; Wirth 1978:55)

11. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl promised they would come a second time. (2 Nephi 6:14; Sahagun 1:40)

12. A new star is associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 1:21; Anales de Cuauhtitlan 7)

13. The children of both Christ and Quetzalcoatl will become lords and heirs of the earth. (4 Nephi 1: 17; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

However, even if Christianity turned out to be correct and even if Quetzalcoatl did turn out to be the ressurected Jesus and God or son of God this would in no way prove that Mormonism was correct, only that they were correct about that one thing. Quetzalcoatl supposedly flew in and off in the direction of the sun's movement and the following images which I think are supposed to be based on glyphs associate him with the crucifix.
<IMG SRC="http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/img/18400.jpg" WIDTH="400" HEIGHT="358">
<IMG SRC="http://weber.ucsd.edu/~anthclub/quetzalcoatl/quet.gif" WIDTH="150" HEIGHT="209">
Here is the question I pose. Is it possible that ever since Cortez having found a similarity with Jesus merely in the promise of a return that Christian doctrine has influenced the legend altering the evidence quoted above making him sound like Jesus? This Aztec god legend is the most convincing evidence that I have come across in favor of Christianity, however it is circumstantial as it could well have been planted after Cortez. The glyphs for example are modern drawings, not pictures of dated glyphs and without immediate access to the legend references any of those could come out of oral traditions after having some Christian influence. If anyone could come up with some dated evidence whether for or against Quetzalcoatl as Jesus I would like to see it.

 

[spidergoat]

Well, it could be that the Middle East and South America had similiarities that gave birth to similar mythologies. They both depended on agriculture, for instance. It has been theorized recently that the nature of religions depend very much on where they originate.

 

[cosmictraveler]

It has also been proven that boats made from reeds could sail across the ocean. Those people that traveled went to many places across the seas to find new homes, South America and Central America were a few of the places they went to and started a new way of living.

 

[Trilairian]

It has also been proven that boats made from reeds could sail across the ocean. Those people that traveled went to many places across the seas to find new homes, South America and Central America were a few of the places they went to and started a new way of living.

I already disproved the Mormon's Israelite indians nonsense by sharing the DNA proof here that this was false. However, I also don't see Christians sailing to the Americas within 100AD imparting their religious beliefs to the Aztecs. I suspect the legend evidence was influenced post Cortez.

 

[spidergoat]

The reason there are so many Catholics in Mexico and South America is that their native religion also worshipped a bloody sacrifice (of virgins to the Gods), and there were elaborate rituals, similar to Catholic mass. In fact, Cristianity probably evolved from the same sort of sacrifices, starting with animals, and finally the symbolic sacrifice of one man. That is also why Christianity has very little to do with the teachings of Jesus, he was just a catalyst for the evolution of a religion that has more to do with satisfying human psychological needs rather than reflecting some universal truth.

 

[Trilairian]

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/Quetzalcoatl/crucible.htm
The above is interesting. It basically shows how much of the Jesus Quetzalcoatl correspondence was probably influenced after Cortez as I thought. For example the idea that Quetzalcoatl was born of a virgin specifically came from a Spaniards interperetation of a glyph that depicted a woman with a cross in her hair. He took the cross to indicate that this was Mary and interpereted the painting accordingly. If anyone has evidence of any Jesus Quetzalcoatl correspondence that is dated prior to Cortez I sure would like to see it.

 

[spidergoat]

Oh, yeah, the archivers of Aztec culture were all Catholic priests. Those bastards burned many Aztec books (codices).

 

[Trilairian]

Oh, yeah, the archivers of Aztec culture were all Catholic priests. Those bastards burned many Aztec books (codices).

I suspect they interpereted what they could to be Jesus and burned what contradicted them as heretical.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

The Aztec Quetzalcoatl god or the fethered or plumed serpent god is being claimed as proof of Mormonism because the book of mormon has it that Jesus visited the Americas after his ressurection and because Quetzalcoatl is said to have characteristics in common with Jesus.

If anyone could come up with some dated evidence whether for or against Quetzalcoatl as Jesus I would like to see it.

first of all, if Jesus had come to the Western Hemisphere it would have been to a culture that pre-dates Aztec/Mexica entrance into the Valley of Mexico, see below:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/05/cam/ht05cam.htm

• ca. 1 A.D. Teotihuacan in the Basin of Mexico grows rapidly as rural populations move in, possibly coerced into doing so.

• ca. 50 A.D. The grid pattern of the city plan is established at Teotihuacan and the focus of sacred building is on the so-called Street of the Dead, where permanent construction of public architecture (such as three-temple complexes) begins. The Pyramid of the Sun, the largest structure ever raised in ancient Mesoamerica, is initiated over a narrow, tunnel-like cave adjacent to the street. Caves are associated with the origins or emergence of life in Mesoamerican thought. The city becomes a pilgrimage center.

also, being Jewish & having God's name embedded in yours ("Y'shua", means "YHWH saves"), & the title Christ (Messiah), probably would mean that "Resplendant Plumed Serpent" would not be Jesus, but maybe satan? a more famous serpent, no? being a good Jewish boy, He may have been known here as "Yesy Kristos" or some transliteration or whatever "God saves" translates into Nahuatl

http://www.cloudforestalive.org/tour/qcam/kukul_highlights/kukulmyth.htm

According to legend, the bird is immortal, true to the wisemen's prophecy about the sign of the hummingbird. It is called the kukul, which means "beautiful feather". For the Aztecs the name was quetzal, which comes from the ancient Nahuatl word quetzalli, also meaning "beautiful feather".

http://www.travellog.com/guatemala/quetzal.html

To the ancient Mayas the Quetzal symbolized freedom and wealth. Freedom, because a Quetzal will die in captivity; wealth, because the Mayas were traders, and quetzal feathers along with jade were their most sought after treasures.

http://weber.ucsd.edu/~anthclub/quetzalcoatl/quetzal.htm

Lastly, it must be kept in mind that despite Quetzalcoatl being an Aztec name, the cultures preceding them had their name for him as well, and applying their own unique attributes to him. Consequently, Quetzalcoatl is related to many names and incarnations, and seems to play a prominent role in a pantheon of virtually all the other Mesoamerican deities. Quetzalcoatl himself goes by the names of Gukumatz, Nine Wind, and Kukulcan among others. These are the most common names found in the general Aztec and Mayan cultures, with Quetzalcoatl maintaining a host of avatars with whom he is intimately connected with or represented by. There are also certain gods that Quetzalcoatl is involved with most of the time as well, such as Xolotl, Tlaloc, Xipe, and Tezcatlipoca. These "upper level" gods are either contrary, complimentary, or both at the same time towards Quetzalcoatl, creating a sense of duality around these myths.

mormons zero, wrong again

 

[Trilairian]

first of all, if Jesus had come to the Western Hemisphere it would have been to a culture that pre-dates Aztec/Mexica entrance into the Valley of Mexico, see below:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/05/cam/ht05cam.htm

So? That 50 AD date for tripple pyrimid complexes could be taken as evidence for the Quetzalcoatl as Jesus hypothesis.

also, being Jewish & having God's name embedded in yours ("Y'shua", means "YHWH saves"), & the title Christ (Messiah), probably would mean that "Resplendant Plumed Serpent" would not be Jesus, but maybe satan?

Why would you speculate that? Wasn't a serpent on a staff Moses symbol that Christians say was a type for Jesus? According to the Quetzalcoatl tradition there he had a darker twin that was about destruction while he was about creation, are you saying that the one that is about creation was actually the devil? To say that he was the devil is even more rediculous than to say that the Spaniard interpereters were correct in assuming they were talking about Jesus.

He may have been known here as "Yesy Kristos" or some transliteration or whatever "God saves" translates into Nahuatl

Why? when you consider that Jesus got his multiple titles from other deities, in particular from Horus and you are only mentioning one.

http://www.cloudforestalive.org/tour/qcam/kukul_highlights/kukulmyth.htm
According to legend, the bird is immortal

So? Could be taken as evidence for the Quetzalcoatl as Jesus hypothesis.

http://www.travellog.com/guatemala/quetzal.html
To the ancient Mayas the Quetzal symbolized freedom and wealth.

So? Could be taken as evidence for the Quetzalcoatl as Jesus hypothesis.

Lastly, it must be kept in mind that despite Quetzalcoatl being an Aztec name, the cultures preceding them had their name for him as well, and applying their own unique attributes to him. ...These "upper level" gods are either contrary, complimentary, or both at the same time towards Quetzalcoatl, creating a sense of duality around these myths.
http://weber.ucsd.edu/~anthclub/quetzalcoatl/quetzal.htm

So? Could be taken as evidence for the Quetzalcoatl as Jesus hypothesis. The mormons say that Jesus was taught about in BC times if you haven't cought on to that in the discussions here yet. All of the evidence you present is circumstantially in favor of the Quetzalcoatl as Jesus hypothesis so I'm not sure I get your point. Did you intend to present the case for the other side by this?

mormons zero, wrong again

Yeah but so are you as with all of Christianity and every other organized religion.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

So? That 50 AD date for tripple pyrimid complexes could be taken as evidence for the Quetzalcoatl as Jesus hypothesis.Why would you speculate that? .

if you're a mormon, you owe it to yourself, to at least look at the circumstances of the origins of LDS. for example; Joe Smith, was a money-digger, all the circumstances of the so-called discovery of the goldenplates, sound exactly like his money digging escapades. if you look at more points, you, if you are a reasonable, logical person, would see the flaws in his character, belief system, rules, oaths, etc...

plus, look at the statements you have made; you are supporting ideas from a system that would never be taken seriously outside of the " fringe, paranormal-like groups" that espouse "wacky" unsupported ideas.

listen, if you are serious about connecting LDS & Mayas, go to LA, they have 2 exhibits until Nov 15th, Tut & Mayan, check them out, see any similarity? I didn't, report back soon:

http://www.lacma.org/info/press/tut2005.htm
http://www.lacma.org/

you need pre-paid tickets ($30) to get in to the Tut exhibit (takes about 1 hr waiting to get in, 2.5 hrs to see & truly enjoy it),
the other exhibits are free that day with ticket stub or $5 off entrance fee if you use it later

if LA is to far, wait till the Tut exhibit goes to a city near you

Yeah but so are you as with all of Christianity and every other organized religion

I'm wrong? in what way?

??????????
I suppose LDS is unorganized religion?

 

[one_raven]

If Quetzalcoatl was the second coming of Christ, shouldn't the world have ended about 900 years ago?

 

[Hapsburg]

It has also been proven that boats made from reeds could sail across the ocean. Those people that traveled went to many places across the seas to find new homes, South America and Central America were a few of the places they went to and started a new way of living.

Bullshit. A boat made of reeds would surely get lost at sea and who knows what happen to it. Only something like a longboat could've made the journey, and those didn't come 'round till the Dark Ages.

 

[one_raven]

Sorry, Hapsburg.
The Polynesians traveled ALL through the South Pacific (and many Anthropologists believe as far as the Americas and Europe) in reed boats LONG before the Dark Ages.

 

[Hapsburg]

Didn't they island-hop, though, to do that? And they only reached the Western Coast of north america. The small islands in the Atlantic ar few and far between, too far fo a reed boat to make it from Palestine to North America.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Sorry, Hapsburg.
The Polynesians traveled ALL through the South Pacific (and many Anthropologists believe as far as the Americas and Europe) in reed boats LONG before the Dark Ages.

*************
M*W: I saw a documentary about Chinese rock anchors that looked like a huge stale donuts found on the west coasts of the Americas. I don't recall what timeframe they were dated, but they were ancient. It's sort of uncanny how the Meso-Americans have Asian-like eyelids like the Incas.

 

[Marlin]

Yeah but so are you as with all of Christianity and every other organized religion

I'm wrong? in what way?

??????????
I suppose LDS is unorganized religion?

Somehow I don't think that Trilairian is LDS, WBY. He is constantly trying to disprove Mormonism and "orthodox" Christianity on this message board.

 

[Hapsburg]

t's sort of uncanny how the Meso-Americans have Asian-like eyelids like the Incas.

Duh. The american indians were decendants of migrating humans from Siberia, who settled and spread all across the two continents. Incas included.

 

[Trilairian]

if you're a mormon, ...

Huh? I was disproving Mormonism among other Bible based religions, not arguing for Mormonism. I thought I'd single out Mormonism because unlike other Bible based religions they take the Bible with a grain of salt. This happened to be an unusual thread in that I wanted to discuss Quetzalcoatl because he also pertains to Christianity in general which I was also disproving. If the Mormons are right and Quetzalcoatl was the resurected Jesus then I am wrong, but what I was arguing was that all the parallels to Jesus were interpreted as refering to Jesus if not just plain made up by those with a Christian agenda.

 

[Cris]

Trilairian,

It may be relevant to point out that the Christ story wasn't an original. The virgin birth, miracles, death, resurrection, second coming, is an older myth that Christianity borrowed. For example -

Buddha was born of the virgin Maya after the Holy Ghost descended upon her.

The Egyptian God Horus was born of the virgin Isis; as an infant, he was visited by three kings.

In Phrygia, Attis was born of the virgin Nama.

A Roman savior Quirrnus was born of a virgin.

In Tibet, Indra was born of a virgin. He ascended into heaven after death.

The Greek deity Adonis was born of the virgin Myrrha, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. He was born "at Bethlehem, in the same sacred cave that Christians later claimed as the birthplace of Jesus."

In Persia, the god Mithra was born of a virgin on DEC-25. An alternate myth is that he emerged from a rock.

Also in Persia, Zoroaster was also born of a virgin.

In India, there are two main stories of the birth of Krishna, one of the incarnations of Vishnu, and the second person within the Hindu Trinity. In one story, Krishna was said to have been born to his mother Devaki while she was still a virgin. In the other, he had a normal conception and birth.

Virgin births were claimed for many Egyptian pharaohs, Greek emperors and for Alexander the Great of Greece. One source is quoted as saying that there were many mythological figures: Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and Horus who share a number of factors.

All were believed to have: been male.
lived in pre-Christian times.
had a god for a father.
human virgin for a mother.
had their birth announced by a heavenly display.
had their birth announced by celestial music.
been born about DEC-25.
had an attempt on their life by a tyrant while they were still an infant
met with a violent death.
rose again from the dead.

Almost all were believed to have:

been visited by "wise men" during infancy.
fasted for 40 days as an adult.