Questions about Islamic beliefs.

[Michael]

Whichever you want it to be

In classical Arabic:

Oh, so it's all up to me. Good, we have to agree for once. Then, as I said, I suggest Virgin 'Companions'.

Good thing the idiot who made-up Islamic Virgin 'Companions' who regrow their hymen (if it should, you know, happen to break), didn't have a predilection for dressing himself in "Islamic" man-diapers and sitting in a "Islamic" crib sucking his fat "Islamic" toe Although, equally as embarrassing from a religious POV, at least the Islamic sex-virgins in heaven makes sense - from a 15 year old boy's perspective anyhow. Or anyone with the mental aptitude of a 15 year old boy. Pretty much most men

So, we agree, a perfect example of Islam.



A good chapter on Islam could be how Historically the Greeks and Italians thought of it as a joke of a religion. They seriously had a laugh. Some couldn't believe anyone could be so stupid. I mean, come to my Church, get a free Virgin when you die. You'd have to be an idiot. Or so they thought. One could also find some parallels into the perception of Chinese Buddhists -at least the few who bothered to read about Islam.

What I'd like to know is when Christianity diverted from being a reasonably 'religious' paradigm and twisted into "Islam" with all the trappings of a wingnut politician making idiotic promises on the stump. When do you suppose that happened? I wonder if the polytheistic Arabs brought those beliefs into Christianity or were they from a lone nut having 'visions'? Which earlier Gods promised men 72 virgins in heaven to bonk? Or is this as example of something that one could call "purely" Islamic? As the White Grape verse is Christian, it only makes sense to suggest a half illiterate mutton head politician had a go, tested the market, found a winner among a segment of the population. Who knows, sexually repressed Christians might have converted just for the 72 virgins? Makes sense.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

So, we agree, a perfect example of Islam.

No man, that is textbook religious fundamentalism.

What I'd like to know is when Christianity diverted from being a reasonably 'religious' paradigm and twisted into "Islam"

Christianity did not "diverted" into Islam, anymore than Judaism "diverted" into Christianity.
It is not like that. Muhammad lived in the 6th century, and many converted to Islam willingly from other religions, in the 7th century Sufism was born due to the "worldliness" of the mainstream Islam that already had taken place by then.

Both Christianity and Islam have violent, ugly pasts that aren't caused by the nature of the religion itself, but the stupidity and ignorance of some people.

 

[S.A.M.]

Both Christianity and Islam have violent, ugly pasts that aren't caused by the nature of the religion itself, but the stupidity and ignorance of some people.

Not just Christianity or Islam, the stupidity and ignorance of some people pervades all areas of the world and all aspects of life

 

[Michael]

No man, that is textbook religious fundamentalism.


Christianity did not "diverted" into Islam, anymore than Judaism "diverted" into Christianity.
It is not like that. Muhammad lived in the 6th century, and many converted to Islam willingly from other religions, in the 7th century Sufism was born due to the "worldliness" of the mainstream Islam that already had taken place by then.

Both Christianity and Islam have violent, ugly pasts that aren't caused by the nature of the religion itself, but the stupidity and ignorance of some people.

I'm not so sure Islam has a violent beginning. Is there any contemporary evidence of that having occurred? It seems pretty reasonable that Islam, or at least Muslims, were violent, but, probably not any more than anyone else, anywhere else. But, I suppose you'd have to decide when Islam actually started. Sometime in the 7th-9th century.

As for Mohammad, the only contemporary evidence for Mohammad existing is as a word on a coin being used as a Title for Christ. That's on a Syrian coin. We have these coins. This is strong evidence that Islam is a type of Gnostic Christianity. Why else is it that the Qur'an is 80% a contemporary modern Bible. It's a Bible. Or was one rather. Other than that, there isn't a single specific reference to Mohammad anywhere. So, it makes no sense to start "Islam", something that seems to exist, with a protagonist in a fictional myth.


Lastly, Christianity was derived from Judaism. Many early Christians were Jews living in Alexandria and Greece.


Regardless, modern Islam, doesn't seem to be so compatible with the modern multicultural shrinking world with it's many Gods and Goddesses and non-Islamic cultures. Thus, either Islam will change, or modern Muslims will continue to exist stage right. Not just Muslims mind you, most people in the modern world. Perhaps now is a good time to redefine Islam.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

No proof of Muhammad, no proof of Jesus, no proof of Moses; but I don't think that is relevant to this thread.

But no, Islam is not a form of Christianity, since it explains that Jesus was one the many prophets.

In any way, I think this thread would be more interesting if people stick with their interpretations on the Quran or other islamic literature.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Not just Christianity or Islam, the stupidity and ignorance of some people pervades all areas of the world and all aspects of life

I like to think that stupid people are not the mayority, but they do make more noise.

 

[S.A.M.]

No proof of Muhammad, no proof of Jesus, no proof of Moses; but I don't think that is relevant to this thread.

But no, Islam is not a form of Christianity, since it explains that Jesus was one the many prophets.

In any way, I think this thread would be more interesting if people stick with their interpretations on the Quran or other islamic literature.

Don't worry, those are not Islamic beliefs but Michael's beliefs about Islam. The two are mutually exclusive and the latter irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Michael]

But no, Islam is not a form of Christianity, since it explains that Jesus was one the many prophets.

That may be true of modern Christianity NOW, however, 50% of Christians THEN did NOT believe in trinity.

Believing Jesus was a Prophet was Christian. Believing Jesus was Satan, was (believe it or not) Christian. Believing in dual souls, Jesus being one, was Christian. Believing Jesus never actually existed, was Christian.

It all depended on the particular Christian you were talking to. Lots of different beliefs back then. Some almost identical to modern Islam - which actually evolved into modern Islam.



This makes me at least, wonder WHAT exactly is Islamic? IMO, an interesting perspective would be the history of "Islam". Which is why FMPOV distinctions between early pre-Islam/Christianity and modern Islam are points that are important.

What is and is not uniquely Islamic? Anything?

Walking around a square stone counter clockwise three times and tossing rocks at it while cursing the underworld, is apparently pagan, for example.

Is that Islamic?

 

[Michael]

Don't worry, those are not Islamic beliefs but Michael's beliefs about Islam. The two are mutually exclusive and the latter irrelevant to this thread.

Actually, as stupid as it sounds, that is an Islamic belief.

Google 'Islam" + '72 Virgin'
About 17,100,000 results (0.12 seconds)

First Link:
WikiIslam.net
72 Virgins



Is there ANY other religion that promises 72 virgins that regrow their hymen in paradise? I mean, pretty much ALL superstitions have a paradise, but as I know it, only Islam promises a carrot of virgins. While I, and pretty much 99% of non Muslims in the world, find it hilarious and indicative of Islam, many a 15 year old boy and man-children, spent their life thinking they get virgins in heaven if only they abstain from pepperoni pizza....



Surely such a unique superstitious belief qualifies as Islamic?

 

[Big Chiller]

Actually, as stupid as it sounds, that is an Islamic belief.

Google 'Islam" + '72 Virgin'
About 17,100,000 results (0.12 seconds)

First Link:
WikiIslam.net
72 Virgins



Is there ANY other religion that promises 72 virgins that regrow their hymen in paradise? I mean, pretty much ALL superstitions have a paradise, but as I know it, only Islam promises a carrot of virgins. While I, and pretty much 99% of non Muslims in the world, find it hilarious and indicative of Islam, many a 15 year old boy and man-children, spent their life thinking they get virgins in heaven if only they abstain from pepperoni pizza....



Surely such a unique superstitious belief qualifies as Islamic?

Lol, I'm well aware that that site is anti-Islamic.

 

[spidergoat]

You have to respect a belief that says there is sex in heaven. I don't think Christians ever say that.

 

[Sock puppet path]

Who the hell would want sex with a virgin for all eternity?? That would be hell!

 

[spidergoat]

She wouldn't be one for long.

 

[NMSquirrel]

You have to respect a belief that says there is sex in heaven. I don't think Christians ever say that.

there has to be..

Who the hell would want sex with a virgin for all eternity?? That would be hell!

what a bloody mess..
but does it say you will be having sex non-stop? that would be hell..no matter how hot she is..

 

[Michael]

Is the belief you'll have sex in heaven with 72 'companions', Islamic? I certainly don't recall Judaism or Christianity preaching about being virtuous now so you can be a letch with 72 perpetual virgins then.

I also was wondering, do 'companions' have any form of freewill? Are 'companions' free to refuse to have sex with It's human master? And if so, does the virtuous human have the right to rape said 'companion'?


Google: 72 companions
About 6,200,000 results (0.25 seconds)

Houri

In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية‎) are commonly translated as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)", [2] "lovely eyed",[3] of "modest gaze",[4] "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinn who enter paradise after being recreated anew in the hereafter.[5] Islam also has a strong mystical tradition which places these heavenly delights in the context of the ecstatic awareness of God.

Speaking of Islamic pornography. Check out this 15th century Persian classic right here. Hmmmm Mmmmmmm that thar Whouri on the right is looking might-tee fine.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

I don't think the belief on this weird unlikely paradise depicted in Islam, defines Islam. i think this is corrupted Islam by politics.

Islam is one of the religions that has followed the old patterns of manipulation of the masses (such as Christianity and Hinduism):
* Fear god, for if you disobey his law you will suffer eternally. This is fear-oriented manipulation.
* Sex is evil, and if you have profane sex in this life you will suffer in eternal damnation.
* If you obey god you will have sex in heaven (with 72 virgins nonetheless).

I mean, come on isn’t it obvious? Repress the sexual drive of the masses, and then promise them the relief if they follow your orders. As if it’s not a known fact that sex is one of the most hard-wired instincts of all animals, and the basis for life and evolution.

And the manipulation out of fear is as basic as it gets.

 

[Big Chiller]

Both heaven and hell will be so overwhelming that it's inappropriate to even think about likening them to this worldly life. And there are verses in the noble Quran to support that.

 

[iceaura]

There are a lot of traditions mixed up with religion

The OP is not clear whether the query concerns ideal Islam as modern interpretations of the Quran would have it be some day, or the collection of the actual religions and sects labeled "Islam" as practiced by living human beings - the beliefs people actually have.

 

[Michael]

I don't think the belief on this weird unlikely paradise depicted in Islam, defines Islam. i think this is corrupted Islam by politics.

Islam is one of the religions that has followed the old patterns of manipulation of the masses (such as Christianity and Hinduism):
* Fear god, for if you disobey his law you will suffer eternally. This is fear-oriented manipulation.
* Sex is evil, and if you have profane sex in this life you will suffer in eternal damnation.
* If you obey god you will have sex in heaven (with 72 virgins nonetheless).

I mean, come on isn’t it obvious? Repress the sexual drive of the masses, and then promise them the relief if they follow your orders. As if it’s not a known fact that sex is one of the most hard-wired instincts of all animals, and the basis for life and evolution.

And the manipulation out of fear is as basic as it gets.

It's not so much that it defines Islam, but that it IS an example of Islam.

I'm not saying that the 72 Virgin companions are to Islam, what Enlightenment is to Buddhism, but only that it is an example of Islam. That aside, Islam certainly utilizes it's fair share of fear to maintain faith in Allah. It's difficult (to impossible) for most Muslims to even think critically about Allah. Whereas, AFAIK, Buddhism OTOH, critical thinking is encouraged. Not to make comparisons with Buddhism, but, certain elements of the Muslim faith can be considered Islamic in the same way that certain elements of the Buddhist's faith can be considered Buddhist.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

It's not so much that it defines Islam, but that it IS an example of Islam.

I'm not saying that the 72 Virgin companions are to Islam, what Enlightenment is to Buddhism, but only that it is an example of Islam. That aside, Islam certainly utilizes it's fair share of fear to maintain faith in Allah. It's difficult (to impossible) for most Muslims to even think critically about Allah. Whereas, AFAIK, Buddhism OTOH, critical thinking is encouraged. Not to make comparisons with Buddhism, but, certain elements of the Muslim faith can be considered Islamic in the same way that certain elements of the Buddhist's faith can be considered Buddhist.

Well, I think you are right about that. Note aside, I don't think "Enlightenment" defines "Buddhism" either, the idea is just a motivation.