Questions about Islamic beliefs.

[skaught]

Sometimes, just for fun, I write essays. Never done anything with them, but lately, I've been wanting to write an essay about Islam, and American involvement in the middle east. So I'm starting this thread to gain a better understanding of Islam. Let me preface by saying that I DO NOT want this thread to degenerate into any form if argument over how one thinks Islam is wrong, or religion is wrong or belief in God, Allah, Jesus or any religious figure is wrong or stupid. Since I do not have Mod powers, I WILL report any such postings. I am ONLY interested in Islamic beliefs. here.

First question:
I remember reading once Muslims believe that God appointed certain duties to the other monotheistic religions. And that the duty he gave to Muslims was to see to it that justice is served in the world. I can't remember where I read this. I was wondering if this is true, and if so, can someone point me to some literature on this or Koranic verses.

Also, what do Muslims believe concerning the bible? Both the Torah, and the new testament. If I am correct, they believe that they are worshiping the same God as Jews and Christians, but it has never been clear to me how they feel about The Hebrew Bible, Jesus, and the new testament.

I know I could just google a lot of this info, but I would certainly enjoy discussing some of these things with some of the people here. Particularly SAM.

 

[S.A.M.]

Also, what do Muslims believe concerning the bible? Both the Torah, and the new testament. If I am correct, they believe that they are worshiping the same God as Jews and Christians, but it has never been clear to me how they feel about The Hebrew Bible, Jesus, and the new testament.

According to the Quran:

If Allah so willed, he would have made you a single People, but his plan is to test each of you separately, in what He has given to each of you: so strive in all virtues as in you are in a race. The goal of all of you is to Allah. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute. (Qur'an 5:48)

And dispute not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless I be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury, but say to them: "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him that we bow." (Qur'an 29:46)

The Quran criticizes Christians and Jews who believed that their own religions the only source of Truth.

They say, if you want to be guided to salvation, you should either become a Jew or Christian. Say: What about the religion of Abraham, he also worshiped no one but Allah. We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, to Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes of Israel, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to all prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah. So, if they believe, they are indeed on the right path, but if they turn back, Allah will suffice them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. This is the Baptism of Allah. And who can baptize better than Allah. And it is He Whom we worship. Say: Will you dispute with us about Allah, He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and you for yours; and that We are sincere in Him? Or do ye say that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah. But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do! That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case.( (Qur'an 2:135-141)

The Jews say: "The Christians have nothing to stand upon"; and the Christians say: "The Jews have nothing to stand upon." Yet they both have something to stand upon, they both recite the Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. (Qur'an 2:113)

Say: “O People of the Book! Come to what is common between us and you: That we worship none but God, that we associate no partners with Him, that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords other than Allah. If then they turn back, say: 'Bear witness that we are bowing to Allah’s will.'" (Qur'an 3:64)

So to Muslims, it is all one God

Meanwhile:

The Zabur of Dawud (David) is referred to in the Qur'an as one of God's books revealed to four selected messengers. The Zabur is preceded by the Taurat (Torah) given to Moses and followed by the Injeel (Gospel) given to Jesus and finally the Qur'an given to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.

According to Islam, it has been there even since the time of Adem (Adam, who is considered the first human) and not beginning in the 7th century. The Aqeedah (belief system) of Islam is believed to be exactly the same in every single one of the four scriptures and several scrolls and is thought exactly the same by every prophet. Considering this it can be assumed the theological aspects of the Zabur be exactly the same as the Qur'an.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabur

It is all the same aqidah through various deens

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
—Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayah 163[4][5]

And it is your Lord that knoweth best all beings that are in the heavens and on earth: We did bestow on some prophets more (and other) gifts than on others: and We gave to David (the gift of) the Psalms.
—Qur'an, Sura 17 (Al-Isra), ayah 55[6]

Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message : My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."
—Qur'an, sura 21 (Al-Anbiya), ayah 105[3]

Does this answer your queries?

 

[skaught]

Thanks SAM. As always, your a lady and a scholar! So I get the impression that Muslims believe that It's not about whether you are Jew, Christian, or Muslim, but more about if you are faithful to what Allah has prescribed to you. And that Jews, Christians and Muslims are not supposed to argue and fight over who is right or wrong, but they are supposed to find common ground between the three different beliefs. Is that correct?

 

[skaught]

My Quran doesn't have surah 5:135-141. It only goes to 120...

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

From what I understood of the Quran, Muhammad was not against the scriptures and teachings of Christianity and Judaism. But he was against their “Pharisees” just like Jesus was.
I don’t use the word pharisees as in Judaism, but as people who go to church (or synagogue) and perform the rituals of their religions (Judaism and Christianity), but do not follow the true teachings. He said that christians fight against jews because they each claim to have the ultimate truth and said that: “Ignorant people speak in a similar matter”. For dogmatic christians say: “My God is the real one” and dogmatic jews: “my god is the real one”. Ignorance sounds similar indeed.

If you study Islam then you have to consider the environment on which Muhammad lived; it was a very hostile environment were christians and jews were at war with everybody who didn’t believe as they did. And they were fighting as always also because their “sacred territory” is the same and off course they cannot share it like civilized people. But that very fighting is against their own scriptures.

Christians and Jews have killed in the name of their religion, even when they share the “You shall not kill” commandment; it is very stupid since they somehow manage to twist the words of certain quotes of the scriptures so they can quench their thirst for blood. This is what Muhammad was against, but not the scriptures; Muhammad was against the Christian hypocrites, and Jewish hypocrites.

I think Muhammad tried to do with Christianity and Judaism what Jesus was trying to do with Judaism. It was just to give a more accurate interpretation of their scriptures, an interpretation that came from their hearts, and not from a hypocritical priest.

S.A.M.: pls correct me if I'm mistaken since my knowledge of Islan is limited to my own reading of the Quran. I don't know the Suras by memory, but I just transmit my own undertanding of the lecture.

 

[S.A.M.]

My Quran doesn't have surah 5:135-141. It only goes to 120...

Sorry its 2:135-141

Most of the rules of the religion are in al Baqarah

 

[skaught]

Umm... Whats al Baqarah?

Also, do you hav e any information on the whole justice thing? Thats kind of going to be a major theme of my essay.

 

[S.A.M.]

Thanks SAM. As always, your a lady and a scholar! So I get the impression that Muslims believe that It's not about whether you are Jew, Christian, or Muslim, but more about if you are faithful to what Allah has prescribed to you. And that Jews, Christians and Muslims are not supposed to argue and fight over who is right or wrong, but they are supposed to find common ground between the three different beliefs. Is that correct?

Yes. The Qur'an forbids zannah or what it calls pointless speculation about religion. People should be more concerned about how they act towards one another than fight over pointless stuff that neither can prove nor determine without the intervention of God.

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and those who doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. Qur'an 2:62

Umm... Whats al Baqarah?

Also, do you hav e any information on the whole justice thing? Thats kind of going to be a major theme of my essay.

What do you mean by "the whole justice thing"? Al Baqarah is the second chapter in the Qur'an

S.A.M.: pls correct me if I'm mistaken since my knowledge of Islan is limited to my own reading of the Quran. I don't know the Suras by memory, but I just transmit my own undertanding of the lecture.

Thats pretty much what I do, as well. I've read the Qur'an and but only a few suras are memorised, mostly due to prayer or if I especially like it.

 

[skaught]

What do you mean by "the whole justice thing"?

I remember reading once Muslims believe that God appointed certain duties to the other monotheistic religions. And that the duty he gave to Muslims was to see to it that justice is served in the world...

I seem to recall that Justice is an important thing to Muslims because God appointed the to see to it that it is served, and that the world is a just place. I can't even remotely recall where I read this.

My inspiration for this is a discussion I had with a friend who said that Justice was served when Bin Laden was killed. While I agreed with him on that point, I also pointed out that Americans, and Muslims probably have differing views on what justice is. He claimed that justice is the purest of all things and can't be seen differently. I argued that it very easily can be viewed differently, because while America may see our actions in the middle east as just, I am sure there are a lot of people in the middle east who do not see it as just, and quite possibly may see it as just to do some of the things they are doing that we see as unjust... Does this make sense?

So, what I am looking for, is Koranic verses that have to do with Justice and get an idea of of Muslims see is Justice.

 

[S.A.M.]

According to the teachings of Islam, everyone is equal before God. And the rules of God demand that everyone be treated justly

“God commands justice and fair dealing...” (Qur'an 16:90)

“O you who believe, be upright for God, and (be) bearers of witness with justice!...” (Qur'an 5:8)

“We sent Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Measure in order to establish justice among the people…” (Qur'an 57:25)

“O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is against the rich or the poor...” (Qur'an 4:135)

“Let not the hatred of a people swerve you away from justice. Be just, for this is closest to righteousness…” (Qur'an 5:8)

“…If you judge, judge between them with justice…” (Qur'an 5:42)

“We have revealed to you the scripture with the truth that you may judge between people by what God has taught you.” (Qur'an 4:105)

“…Say: I believe in the Scripture, which God has sent down, and I am commanded to judge justly between you...” (Qur'an 42:15)

“…Be just, for it is closest to God-consciousness…” (Qur'an 5:8)

“…When you speak, speak with justice, even if it is against someone close to you…” (Qur'an 6:152)

But as you rightly said, what is justice?

Equivalence is the Law [2:178-179]

IOW, when someone commits a crime, he has to compensate until the scales of justice are balanced. In capital crimes like terrorism and murder - which are the only two crimes in Islam where a death penalty is permitted if the victims of the crime demand it - the victims can choose, under due process, the compensation that they desire - be it monetary compensation, the death penalty, a life imprisonment or a pardon.

"O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."

- Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8)

In ALL cases, forgiveness is superior to punishment

“… They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? " (Qur’an, 24:22)

“The repayment of a bad action is one equivalent to it. But if someone pardons and puts things right, his reward is with Allah…” (Qur’an, 42:40)

“…. But if you pardon and exonerate and forgive, Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Qur’an, 64: 14)

“But if someone is steadfast and forgives, that is the most resolute course to follow.” (Qur’an, 42:43)

“control their rage and pardon other people.” (Qur’an, 3:134)

It is the belief in Islam that while punishing the offender is payment for the crime, forgiving the offender is healthier for the victim.

My inspiration for this is a discussion I had with a friend who said that Justice was served when Bin Laden was killed. While I agreed with him on that point, I also pointed out that Americans, and Muslims probably have differing views on what justice is

According to the rules of Islam, the people who were wronged by bin Laden i.e. his victims, get to determine what his punishment should be. But this is only after both the offender and victim appear before a third party, a neutral party that is the justice system.

 

[skaught]

According to the rules of Islam, the people who were wronged by bin Laden i.e. his victims, get to determine what his punishment should be. But this is only after both the offender and victim appear before a third party, a neutral party that is the justice system.

So The US killing him in the way they did, would be seen as unjustby Islamic standards? Even by Muslims who do not support him?

 

[S.A.M.]

So The US killing him in the way they did, would be seen as unjustby Islamic standards? Even by Muslims who do not support him?

Yes, vigilante killing is not subscribed to by Islam. You cannot take the law into your own hands, no matter how much you hate the person - the only time this is permitted is if you are directly under attack

This does not mean, however, that all Muslims will see it that way as well. There are many Muslims who feel that Osama's crimes contributed to the last 10 years of war which killed people in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere. He was used to justify the torture and killing of so many innocent people. So to many people his crimes make him liable for all the fitna of the last decade and they will be relieved that this excuse no longer exists.

I am of course, a satyagrahi in addition to being a Muslim, and I tend to err on the side of truth - I believe that every human being has the right to face his accusers and have his day in court

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

So The US killing him in the way they did, would be seen as unjustby Islamic standards? Even by Muslims who do not support him?

As far as I know, violence is prohibited in the Quran; but Muhammad did say that fighting and killing is permitted by god in self defense. This was probably used as an excuse for terrorists whom are said to be muslims, but the killing of innocent people is strongly condemned in the Quran.

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors." (2:190)

"Oh you who believe: do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." (5:87)

"... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." (4:90)

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed to God's will in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy the good things of this life and to please themselves: let false hope amuse them: soon will knowledge undeceive them." (15:2-3)

One has to have very clear that "self defense" does NOT equal vengeance. And by no means a person has to held guilty for the actions of another person.

 

[skaught]

This is all very helpful! Thanks very much SAM and WS!

 

[NMSquirrel]

In ALL cases, forgiveness is superior to punishment

It is the belief in Islam that while punishing the offender is payment for the crime, forgiving the offender is healthier for the victim.

if only america was like that..<sigh>

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

if only america was like that..<sigh>

one has to begin as an individual

 

[Michael]

Sometimes, just for fun, I write essays. Never done anything with them, but lately, I've been wanting to write an essay about Islam, and American involvement in the middle east. So I'm starting this thread to gain a better understanding of Islam. Let me preface by saying that I DO NOT want this thread to degenerate into any form if argument over how one thinks Islam is wrong, or religion is wrong or belief in God, Allah, Jesus or any religious figure is wrong or stupid. Since I do not have Mod powers, I WILL report any such postings. I am ONLY interested in Islamic beliefs.

It'd be interesting to look into the "Islamic" beliefs that are unique to Islam, verses those the existed prior to Islam - so as to better define what is, and is not, "Islam".

There once was a mathematician from the middle east that used to post here. He was atheist. But he still considered himself Muslim and stated his culture was 'Islamic'. IOWs, lacking a belief in the Qur'an and Mohammad didn't seem to relate to what was 'Islamic' in his mind as 'Islam' was a culture.

Is circumcision Islamic? Is not eating pork Islamic? Is the star and crescent Islamic? Is the Christian Bible Islamic? Is the burka Islamic? How about taking 4 wives, is that Islamic? Inviting people in as guests? Music? Non-religious Literature?

I'd be interested in the pre-Islamic rituals that are considered Islamic. Such as praying 5 times a day, circumventing a square stone in a particular direction a specific number of times, etc....

 

[S.A.M.]

The aqidah is the same since Adam. So what you want to know is whether people have always worshipped in the same way. And the answer to that is sometimes yes, sometimes not.

Is circumcision Islamic? Is not eating pork Islamic? Is the star and crescent Islamic? Is the Christian Bible Islamic? Is the burka Islamic? How about taking 4 wives, is that Islamic? Inviting people in as guests? Music? Non-religious Literature?

There are a lot of traditions mixed up with religion

According to the Quran, there is no mention of circumcision; eating pork is considered unhealthy like eating blood and both are haram; the star and crescent are both symbols which were adopted by Muslims as a symbol of Islam after the Ottomans but have been present since antiquity going as far back as the Maobites [in that it is simlar to the Christian cross], the Christian Bible is called the Injeel in Islam, the burka was first adopted by the ancient Assyrians, polygamy is permitted in Islam but it did not begin with Islam

As since we are on the topic of justice,

“If you fear that you can not be just, then marry only one…” (Quran 4:3)

 

[Michael]

There are a lot of traditions mixed up with religion

Is Islam tradition or religion and can the two be separated? Can a person be Muslim and not believe in God? If a person lives their entire life in complete accordance with "Islam" but the whole time lacks a belief in God, is she still "Islamic"? Is anything she did "Islamic"? Can her actions BE Islamic if she's isn't able to believe in God?

You mention the Star and Crescent. You seem to argue it's not Islamic because it's use predates Islam. Well, so does belief in One God. I'd argue most of the Qur'an predates Islam.

Also, you base a number of notions of what is "Islamic" by prefacing your argument: According to the Qur'an.... Does this mean that people who lived and died prior to the codification of the Qur'an were not Islamic (seeing as in there's be no Qur'an to accord with)? Is Islam static, like the Qur'an or does it evolve? Is Islam only based on the whim of the interpretation of a person on that day?

It's been suggested that most of the Qur'an makes little sense when read in "Classical Arabic" and that meaning can be found when read in a more natural language of the time: Syro-Aramaic. Using the argument: According to the Qur'an, when read in Syro-Aramaic, the word huri, universally interpreted by "Islamic" scholars as white-eyed virgins (who will serve the faithful in Paradise; Qur'an 44:54, 52:20, 55:72, 56:22) means, when read in Syro-Aramaic: white grapes. Which makes good sense when we view the Qur'an for what it is: one of the multitude of Christian Bibles in use by the wide array of Christians at that time in that place (some of whom did not think Jesus was the Son of God, that he was not crucified and that he was a Prophet - hell, some thought he was Satan, some thought he was a dualistic spirit. It's a fact that some of these Christians used the word Mohammad as Jesus's Title - were they Islamic? Was the pre-Islamic belief that Jesus was not Crucified, actually an Islamic belief? It's no accident that many Syrian Christian "secs", like the one that evolved into "Islam", described Christian Paradise as abounding in pure white grapes - certainly not virgin girls.

So: Which is Islamic? White Grapes or White Virgins? I'd say the virgins.

 

[S.A.M.]

So: Which is Islamic? White Grapes or White Virgins? I'd say the virgins.

Whichever you want it to be

In classical Arabic:

According to classical Arabic usage in the time when the Qur'an was recited by Muhammad, Hur'in is made of two words Hur as well as In. The word 'Hur' is the plural of both Ahwar (Masculine) and Hawra (Feminine) which literally translates as "white-eyed", or persons distinguished by Hawar, signifying "intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the pupils." (ref: Qamus ), hence 'the purity' (ref: Tafsir al'Tabari, and Tafsir al-Razi in 3:52). And as for the phrase, "In it is the plural of both 'Ayan' (Masculine) and 'Ainao' (Feminine)",[23] it was also used to refer to the beautiful eyes of the wild-cow whose eyes are blond. In general, this word implies 'most beautiful eye' irrespective of the person's gender. Thus, it seems that the most appropriate English rendering of the compound word Hur'In might be: "Companions pure, most beautiful of eye."[24] and it is applicable to both male and female.[25]