Question to believers

[Enoc]

If God can do anything then why are so many people in this world in a state of constant pain, trouble and worries?

If God is kind-hearted and can do absolutely anything then why are so many people in this world in a constant state of pain, hunger, social persecution or extreme poverty?

If God was all-powerful then he can prevent or eliminate all suffering. If God was good-hearted, then he would not want his creations to suffer. Since you say God is both, pain and suffering should not exist at all. In fact, however, we see pain and suffering all around us and experience it ourselves.

Therefore, God can not exist, or he’s not all-capable, or he’s not all-good.”

 

[Thoreau]

You're question should be more specific.

There is a huge difference between the Judeo-Christian God and the Deist God.

 

[arauca]

If God can do anything then why are so many people in this world in a state of constant pain, trouble and worries?

If God is kind-hearted and can do absolutely anything then why are so many people in this world in a constant state of pain, hunger, social persecution or extreme poverty?

If God was all-powerful then he can prevent or eliminate all suffering. If God was good-hearted, then he would not want his creations to suffer. Since you say God is both, pain and suffering should not exist at all. In fact, however, we see pain and suffering all around us and experience it ourselves.

Therefore, God can not exist, or he’s not all-capable, or he’s not all-good.”

let me make a small analogy . As I lived at home ( up to 17 years old ) I had all comfort at home but there were some restriction , so one evening I decided live home live on my own and without restriction. I had to work to provide myself. I got my self in some difficulty , had hunger for several days , got locked up in jail, Got my self two rounds of venereal disease, got married 4 times . Now, tell me is that my parents fault, what does my father have to do because of my problems

 

[wlminex]

let me make a small analogy . As I lived at home ( up to 17 years old ) I had all comfort at home but there were some restriction , so one evening I decided live home live on my own and without restriction. I had to work to provide myself. I got my self in some difficulty , had hunger for several days , got locked up in jail, Got my self two rounds of venereal disease, got married 4 times . Now, tell me is that my parents fault, what does my father have to do because of my problems

"Free Will" . . . rings a bell . . . just because we're intelligent (hope!) we're not always "smart"

 

[Adstar]

If God can do anything then why are so many people in this world in a state of constant pain, trouble and worries?

The USA and vaporize Iran killing all its people in a half hour. But as we can see Iran is still a nation and it's people still exist. Therefore having an ability to do something does not mean it is done. The ability must be joined by the will to do so and the carrying out of the intention.

You cannot say the USA cannot vaporize the Iranian nation and proof of this is the continued existence of the Iranian nation.

Same with God. What God can do is total independent to what God does do.

If God is kind-hearted and can do absolutely anything then why are so many people in this world in a constant state of pain, hunger, social persecution or extreme poverty?

Because God has decided to allow, for a time ,human beings to have the free will to inflict pain on each other and to persecute each other and to be greedy and uncharitable towards their fellow man. Also God has allowed suffering caused by random accidents and disasters to befall men. Part of the outcome of living in a world sabotaged by satan. This will be the case until satan has clearly demonstrated his illegitimacy to be a God. Humanity is only called upon to endure a life time in this world and we not only experience suffering but also love and pleasure. For most it is a mixed bag of experiences.

If God was all-powerful then he can prevent or eliminate all suffering. If God was good-hearted, then he would not want his creations to suffer. Since you say God is both, pain and suffering should not exist at all. In fact, however, we see pain and suffering all around us and experience it ourselves.

The pain and suffering we endure is for a greater purpose. And we who believe God will receive compensation x infinity for our limited time in this state of being.

Therefore, God can not exist, or he’s not all-capable, or he’s not all-good.”

Wrong. You cannot prove that God does not exist because you disagree with the way He has gone about His Eternal plan. That's as illogical as stating the volcanoes do not exist because their eruptions offend you with the destruction they cause. Volcanoes are essential to the renewing of land and they add important elements to the atmosphere, which in the long term is essential to continued life on earth.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[spidergoat]

If that's the case, we are still victims of God's experiments with Satan.

 

[lightgigantic]

If God can do anything then why are so many people in this world in a state of constant pain, trouble and worries?

actually they have temporary pain ... namely because they have a temporary existence (in a temporary world with a temporary identification) ... IOW, as you tend to indicate, this world isn't really suitable for housing eternal values

If God is kind-hearted and can do absolutely anything then why are so many people in this world in a constant state of pain, hunger, social persecution or extreme poverty?

ditto above

If God was all-powerful then he can prevent or eliminate all suffering. If God was good-hearted, then he would not want his creations to suffer. Since you say God is both, pain and suffering should not exist at all. In fact, however, we see pain and suffering all around us and experience it ourselves.

The obvious answer is that this world is a temporary expression for the (temporary ) expression of misaligned free will.

IOW its a necessary consequence of having free will coupled with a lack of omnipotence that one have the capacity to suffer.

The good natured aspect of god is that he relegates this to a type of virtual world where identities are assumed and dramas are played out in an arena aimed at assisting one make the learning curve on what constitutes proper aligned free will (IOW how to act without hurting yourself or others) ... which is actually the only real solution for suffering for an entity equipped with free will

Therefore, God can not exist, or he’s not all-capable, or he’s not all-good.”

In brief, a common failing of the argument you present is that one doesn't factor in the necessary conditions of free will and dependence ... IOW the real form the argument is "god doesn't exist because we are not made omnipotent" or "god doesn't exist because we have free will" as opposed to "god doesn't exist because we suffer".

Sometimes persons try to twist the argument into the form "if god was omnipotent he would have made us with free will and without the possibility to suffer" but that is kind of like saying if god was omnipotent he could have made round triangles or married bachelors

:shrug:

 

[wynn]

In brief, a common failing of the argument you present is that one doesn't factor in the necessary conditions of free will and dependence ... IOW the real form the argument is "god doesn't exist because we are not made omnipotent" or "god doesn't exist because we have free will" as opposed to "god doesn't exist because we suffer".

As absurd as the request for human omnipotence may be, it does point at a most painful reality: namely, that lacking omnipotence is a painful state of being, it is a frightening awareness of dependence, a debilitating awareness of human fragility.

So when a theist thus makes a person aware of their short-comings, how is the person supposed to figure out which religion is the right one, which one to join?


The problem of theodicy may have a straighforward enough solution within a monoreligious culture, but it takes on new proportions in a multi-religious setting where numerous religions provide in roundabout the same answer to the problem of theodicy, but also make the exclusive claim to be the one and only right religion.

 

[wynn]

If God can do anything then why are so many people in this world in a state of constant pain, trouble and worries?

If God is kind-hearted and can do absolutely anything then why are so many people in this world in a constant state of pain, hunger, social persecution or extreme poverty?

If God was all-powerful then he can prevent or eliminate all suffering. If God was good-hearted, then he would not want his creations to suffer. Since you say God is both, pain and suffering should not exist at all. In fact, however, we see pain and suffering all around us and experience it ourselves.

Therefore, God can not exist, or he’s not all-capable, or he’s not all-good.”

What are you looking for?


Are you trying to find out which religion is the right one?

Are you expecting that theists/religionists would renounce their faith?

Are you trying to justify your atheism?

...?

 

[spidergoat]

actually they have temporary pain ... namely because they have a temporary existence (in a temporary world with a temporary identification) ... IOW, as you tend to indicate, this world isn't really suitable for housing eternal value

Sorry, that doesn't make up for it.

 

[lightgigantic]

Sorry, that doesn't make up for it.

Might have something to do with your failure to address the rest of the post that explains not only precisely why it does indeed make up for it ..... but also the standard pitfalls of thinking that goes into thinking to the contrary ....

 

[spidergoat]

I don't buy your arguments. I don't think a lifetime of torture can ever be made up for with an afterlife.

 

[Syne]

If God can do anything then why are so many people in this world in a state of constant pain, trouble and worries?

If God is kind-hearted and can do absolutely anything then why are so many people in this world in a constant state of pain, hunger, social persecution or extreme poverty?
...
Therefore, God can not exist, or he’s not all-capable, or he’s not all-good.”

Your first premise: God can do anything.
Your second premise: Suffering exists.

Your conclusion: God cannot exist, or it can be evil.

This is a false dilemma of either God existing, or being evil, otherwise suffering wouldn't exist. You have neglected the most important fact. Man is the most direct cause of all the suffering you mentioned, thus:

First premise: Suffering exists.
Second premise: Man causes suffering.

Conclusion: Man cannot be "all-good".

This says nothing about the existence of a god nor its nature, either way. It is merely a demonstration of freewill. Now many argue that natural disasters are not caused by man, and this is true enough. But it doesn't automatically follow that natural disasters are caused by a god, as there very well may be no god. Neither does it follow that a god, if it existed, could stop natural disasters while also allowing for freewill.

P1: Freewill exists.
P2: Freewill operates through the causation of the physical universe.

C: Any violation of physical causation is a potential violation of freewill.

If freewill is to exist then physical causation cannot be violated. Any causal chain of events is far too complex and interdependent to expect to be able to successfully divorce any event that affects man completely from the actions of man.

Take Haiti for example. Either a tribal or much more modern/affluent society would both have fared better, both due to the type or quality of structures man would build. Actually, a tribal society would have fared best, supporting the argument that the actions of man can be more harmful. Quite aside from man's choice of habitat.

 

[spidergoat]

If God can't stop natural disasters, then he's either not good, or not omnipotent. Also, why should God care about interfering with the free will of a bad person?

If God cannot or is unwilling to interfere with physical causation, then it's useless to pray, and there are no miracles, Jesus didn't come back from the dead, and Christianity is wrong.

 

[Syne]

If God can't stop natural disasters, then he's either not good, or not omnipotent. Also, why should God care about interfering with the free will of a bad person?

If God cannot or is unwilling to interfere with physical causation, then it's useless to pray, and there are no miracles, Jesus didn't come back from the dead, and Christianity is wrong.

Inconsistent logic. A god cannot contravene itself where one choice necessarily precludes another. So between freewill (cooperative control) and absolute control there is no middle ground. Selective negation of freewill negates all freewill, as any good action may require, somewhere in its chain of causation, a relatively minor harmful act. Thus even good actions would necessitate being negated. For example, someone providing medical aid may save a murder. In this case, the murder may only be able to be stopped by curtailing the freewill of the person providing wholly good medical aid.

You seem to assume any action of god to be wholly supernatural. This is not necessarily so. Considering freewill, it is much more likely that a god would only operate through the willing cooperation of man (whether you want to call that inspiration, conscience, mirror neurons etc.).

This is the only way to maintain freewill if a god were to exist. Otherwise, there would be no personal control and thus no personal responsibility to account for with any of the punishments or consequences postulated by the various religions or enforced in society. If that were the case, we would be unjustified in judging any act as inherently bad.

 

[spidergoat]

I'm not sure why you think selective interference would preclude free will for everyone. He could do things that don't include people. This is just as logical as thinking there is a god in the first place. Also not sure why you think God can only answer prayers that can only be fulfilled by the actions of a person. This would contradict the Biblical God who did things like part the Red Sea.

Since God allegedly can see the future, he could have set things up to be only beneficial to mankind and then he wouldn't have to interfere with free will at all. In this case, by beneficial I mean having an environment without natural disasters, we would still have to deal with bad people.

 

[wellwisher]

One assumption that makes this easier to see is called eternal life. If there is eternal life, then what happens in this life is simply a bump within the bigger picture. If you lack that assumption, then the bump will be seen in an entirely different way.

An analogy are the birthing pains of child labor. If labor is all that there is to the process, one may ask why does God do this terrrible thing? But since the picture is largeer than that; followed by an infant and all the joy it brings, it was not quite so dramatically bad. Many will do it again.

A young soldier may go to boot camp and suffer long days in the sun, with a heavy pack, marching. If your time perception is narrowed to a day, this seems like so much suffer for nothing. But in the context of a lifetime, it was a time of challenge and learning about your strength.

When i was going through school one of my best teachers was tough and I hated the amount of work that was required. But upon graduation, looking back, I remembered how much I learned from this top teacher. It is all about the scale of time perspective If you live in the now or need some immediate gratification everything seems worse. But as you expand time perception to say a year, sacrifices are not as dramatic.

 

[wynn]

I don't buy your arguments. I don't think a lifetime of torture can ever be made up for with an afterlife.

How about with another life, and another life etc.?

 

[spidergoat]

I doubt it.

 

[Syne]

I'm not sure why you think selective interference would preclude free will for everyone. He could do things that don't include people. This is just as logical as thinking there is a god in the first place. Also not sure why you think God can only answer prayers that can only be fulfilled by the actions of a person. This would contradict the Biblical God who did things like part the Red Sea.

Since God allegedly can see the future, he could have set things up to be only beneficial to mankind and then he wouldn't have to interfere with free will at all. In this case, by beneficial I mean having an environment without natural disasters, we would still have to deal with bad people.

There is no way to affect a closed system (i.e. universe) in an isolated way. Any direct introduction of interference (independent of any existing agent within that system) would have repercussions throughout the system. There is no way to isolate the ripple effects of such from possibly curtailing the freewill good people.

You cannot require supernatural influence to justify precluding a god. If a god is omnipotent, it is most likely that it operates in accord with preserving its own earlier decisions.

Who said anything about the Bible? I'm just talking about simple logic. A god who predetermines how the future will unfold doesn't allow for freewill. A prerequisite for freewill is an environment which may allow for bad actions. Otherwise it's like saying someone locked in a padded room has complete freewill.