Question for Cris and James R.,if possible...

Gravage

Registered Senior Member
I just researched the entire "Religion" forum,and I've seen that you both,Cris and James,say that there is no evidence that there are gods-which I agree,and there are no evidences that there no gods-which I disagree.Why you doubt that there are no gods?Because,we're not conscious and advanced enough to see thru this universe/reality(one universe=one reality).Even if there are beings,it doesn't mean they are gods,since gods are specifically described as omnipotent.I could accept,there may have been,hyper-evolved beings,very,very powerful and hyper-advanced beings-but none and nothing is omnipotent.Every entity has limits,it's all about survival.Always have been,and it will always be,and NO species,no entity lives forever-bcause energy is fluctuating,it never stops transforming from one form of energy to another.There is no eternal form of energy,except the energy itself.
Consciousness is created in the brain,so it can't stay for long time,since consciouusness and subconsciousness are shut down before the brain dies.Also,I want to know what are your beliefs(from both James and Cris),about this?
Thanks!
 
...except the energy itself
I'm not Cris or James, but they might have more to say if you could elaborate on where this energy came from, and why it should be exempt from the limits you put on everything that is infused with it. That puts it a close second to "omnipotence".
 
Originally posted by Gravage
I just researched the entire "Religion" forum,and I've seen that you both,Cris and James,say that there is no evidence that there are gods-which I agree,and there are no evidences that there no gods-which I disagree.Why you doubt that there are no gods?Because,we're not conscious and advanced enough to see thru this universe/reality(one universe=one reality).
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M*W: Gravage, I wanted to jump in here to ask you some questions about your post. What do you mean about "one universe=one reality?"
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Even if there are beings,it doesn't mean they are gods,since gods are specifically described as omnipotent.I could accept,there may have been,hyper-evolved beings,very,very powerful and hyper-advanced beings-but none and nothing is omnipotent.Every entity has limits,it's all about survival.Always have been,and it will always be,and NO species,no entity lives forever-bcause energy is fluctuating,it never stops transforming from one form of energy to another.
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M*W: I see God as a positive energy that moves through the human race (and everything in creation).
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There is no eternal form of energy,except the energy itself.
Consciousness is created in the brain,so it can't stay for long time,since consciouusness and subconsciousness are shut down before the brain dies.Also,I want to know what are your beliefs(from both James and Cris),about this?Thanks!
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M*W: I see the One Spirit of God being a pure positive force of energy that created the universe. The absence of God/positive energy would be a vacuum. In a state of vacuum, there is the potentiality to acquire negative energy. I related these energy states to this:

A state of positive energy = Presence of God
A vacuum state = Absence of God/Evil
A state of negative energy = Presence of Evil

Does any of this make sense to you?
 
Gravage:

<i>I just researched the entire "Religion" forum,and I've seen that you both,Cris and James,say that there is no evidence that there are gods-which I agree,and there are no evidences that there no gods-which I disagree.</i>

My view on this is that there is some evidence that there are gods. For example, many many people feel that there are gods, and that does not count for nothing.

On the other hand, there is no good <b>scientific</b> evidence for the existence of gods.

<i>Why you doubt that there are no gods?</i>

Because it is fundamentally impossible to prove that there are no gods.

<i>Because,we're not conscious and advanced enough to see thru this universe/reality(one universe=one reality).Even if there are beings,it doesn't mean they are gods,since gods are specifically described as omnipotent.</i>

I'm not sure I would require a being to be omnipotent to consider it equivalent to a god for all practical purposes. Omnipotence generally would lead to logical contradictions, so I don't think it is a realistic possibility.

<i>Consciousness is created in the brain,so it can't stay for long time,since consciouusness and subconsciousness are shut down before the brain dies.</i>

That's actually a big question, known in philosophy as the <b>mind-body</b> problem. It's not as open and shut as you seem to think.
 
Gravage,

I don’t remember seeing you post in this forum before but then I don’t read every thread. If you are indeed new then welcome. And thanks for giving me an excuse to state my current views, not that I really need an excuse.
I just researched the entire "Religion" forum, and I've seen that you both, Cris and James, say that there is no evidence that there are gods-which I agree, and there are no evidences that there no gods-which I disagree.
I believe the term ‘god’ is so ill-defined that to say one does or doesn’t exist is significantly premature. Einstein saw God as the perfection of a universe that reveals itself in the laws of Physics, i.e. a pantheist perspective. The Deist says that a god started everything and hasn’t been seen since. And the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god is believed to be something that actively plays a role in the everyday lives of ordinary people.

The concept of a specific god tends to depend on human imagination and never on direct observation. The chances of such a fictional object with such bizarre properties, as alleged by institutions like Christianity, actually being a reality is not worth serious consideration. As Einstein said such ideas are childlike.

I’m also not swayed by the fact that large numbers of people believe such things. Most people on the planet at one time believed the world was flat. Reality and truth have no necessary correlation with a majority view. Also with the new understanding coming from Neurotheology we are beginning to see that spiritual experiences are being generated by the brain when subjected to certain conditions.

Of greater interest should be the question of a soul. As we dig deeper into neuroscience we are beginning to understand the physicality and deterministic properties of the brain. We now know that thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc can all be generated and affected by brain activity. There appears to be no place where a soul could reside or that it would have any meaningful function. If there is no such thing as a soul then what purpose would gods provide? The concepts of both souls and gods combine to offer an afterlife environment where the soul would reside after death, and there are of course numerous imaginative fantasies that revolve around this basic concept. Reincarnation is of course a variation where the god concept is usually unnecessary.

It seems likely that as we unravel the mysteries of the brain, which to date show no need of a non physical component, that we will reach a full understanding and the concept of a soul will fade into irrelevance. Once this basic foundation of most religions is shattered then the fantasies of gods should similarly fall into irrelevance shortly after.

Why you doubt that there are no gods?
The question is unanswerable – what does ‘god’ mean? It is just a fictional fantasy.

Every entity has limits, it's all about survival.
I don’t see that that is necessarily true. Infinity must exist otherwise nothing could ever have begun. This sets a precedent that it is possible for something to be infinite, in which case why not an intelligence.

NO species, no entity lives forever-because energy is fluctuating, it never stops transforming from one form of energy to another.
Only if it is left to itself. If it was controlled by an intelligence with the deliberate intention of maintaining the matrix for that intelligence then the implication is that immortality is a possibility.

There is no eternal form of energy, except the energy itself.
That sounds like a contradiction.

Consciousness is created in the brain, so it can't stay for long time, since consciousness and subconsciousness are shut down before the brain dies.
Then we need to transfer consciousness into a more resilient medium, say silicon that does not suffer the fragility of biological structures. We can then look for something better after that, and so on. Perhaps we will eventually evolve into a god.
 
Well,I'm new in religion forum...

Gravage:Well,I was a couple of times on astronomy,exobiology forum,and I asked James R. something about quarks,but I wasn't here on relgion forum,until now.

Originally posted by Cris
Gravage,

I don’t remember seeing you post in this forum before but then I don’t read every thread. If you are indeed new then welcome. And thanks for giving me an excuse to state my current views, not that I really need an excuse.
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Gravage:No problem,I truly like to hear opinions,especially atheists' since they give more powerful,as well as realistic arguments.
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I believe the term ‘god’ is so ill-defined that to say one does or doesn’t exist is significantly premature. Einstein saw God as the perfection of a universe that reveals itself in the laws of Physics, i.e. a pantheist perspective. The Deist says that a god started everything and hasn’t been seen since. And the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god is believed to be something that actively plays a role in the everyday lives of ordinary people.

The concept of a specific god tends to depend on human imagination and never on direct observation. The chances of such a fictional object with such bizarre properties, as alleged by institutions like Christianity, actually being a reality is not worth serious consideration. As Einstein said such ideas are childlike.

I’m also not swayed by the fact that large numbers of people believe such things. Most people on the planet at one time believed the world was flat. Reality and truth have no necessary correlation with a majority view. Also with the new understanding coming from Neurotheology we are beginning to see that spiritual experiences are being generated by the brain when subjected to certain conditions.

Of greater interest should be the question of a soul. As we dig deeper into neuroscience we are beginning to understand the physicality and deterministic properties of the brain. We now know that thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc can all be generated and affected by brain activity. There appears to be no place where a soul could reside or that it would have any meaningful function. If there is no such thing as a soul then what purpose would gods provide? The concepts of both souls and gods combine to offer an afterlife environment where the soul would reside after death, and there are of course numerous imaginative fantasies that revolve around this basic concept. Reincarnation is of course a variation where the god concept is usually unnecessary.
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Gravage:I completely agree with you here.
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It seems likely that as we unravel the mysteries of the brain, which to date show no need of a non physical component, that we will reach a full understanding and the concept of a soul will fade into irrelevance. Once this basic foundation of most religions is shattered then the fantasies of gods should similarly fall into irrelevance shortly after.

The question is unanswerable – what does ‘god’ mean? It is just a fictional fantasy.
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Gravage:I completely agree with you here,too.
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I don’t see that that is necessarily true. Infinity must exist otherwise nothing could ever have begun. This sets a precedent that it is possible for something to be infinite, in which case why not an intelligence.
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Gravage:Have you ever heard levels of infinity?Consider the numbers 2 and 1.2 is greater than 1.If you take 2 and divide it by an infinitely small or infinitely large numbers, you get infinity.On the other hand if you take 1 and divide it by the same infinitely small or infinitely large numbers,you also get infinity.This however does not mean 1 = 2.At the end of the day, 2 is still greater than 1.This is usually called "transfinite numbers" term.Transfinite numbers (designated with letters of the Hebrew alphabet) are numbers used to point out different levels of infinity.So,if their non-existant God has truly infinite power transfinite numbers disprove his true,and total,complete omnipotence.However,I'm one of those who don't think that you need the intelligent design to create the universe,the way I see the universe;universe is an form of energy like everything and everyone else is-and I don't know why I'm so sure about that without an evidence,the evidence I see,are everywhere,since everything in the universe(at least visible part of the universe),including the universe itself,is the form of energy.Also,have you ever questioned yourself,what if infinity always existed without an entity that created that infinity.If you mean on the infinity as an godlike entity,than I have to disagree with you,however if this primodial infinity is an living being we will never know.I have accpeted long time ago that there is no god.If you ask me why I'm so sure that god doesn't exist...,well,let's just say I was the one who saw ghosts twice,I saw an ghostly black panther who rides motorcycle(and my friends too,saw it).I was also believer in God before,but the problem,I didn't think like others with my heart,but with my brain,I wanted evidences.I was always a scientific guy who wanted evidences.More and more I've found out about the Bible contradictions,and Christ-who might never existed at all.Than I was becoming more and more self-aware that religions are like ebolas that poison the entire world(theists,no offence really,but this how I experienced religion).I've also discovered that my ghosts I saw were just my brain's bioelectrochemical simulations what I really wanted to see.That's why I don't believe there is an entity who lives above all universe-s(if there are more universe at all) and that represents infinity and eternity,everything I saw is just a natural process,so is the universe.I have completely changed.Now,these I simply can't hear words like religion,God,ghosts and etc...,I just can't.Theists can judge me how they want to because I have betrayed faith and Christianism,I was born and raised into,but sorry,this is me, today.I can't be changed again.And there is always a weak point in any entity,inlcuding God is does exist,it's simply the nature that won't allow an entity to rule forever.Thanks for listening,Cris and James!It's really nice to have to hear your views about religions.
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Only if it is left to itself. If it was controlled by an intelligence with the deliberate intention of maintaining the matrix for that intelligence then the implication is that immortality is a possibility.

There is no eternal form of energy,just the energy itself.

That sounds like a contradiction.
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Gravage:I don't know why saying that there is no eternal form of energy,just the energy itself(which is truly eternal,uncreateable and undestroyable) contradiction?It's an every-day fact,irrefutable.If there is an eternal form of energy,energy wouldn't be active anymore,after some time,it would be passive.Energy is always "riding" with no beginning or end.Space and time are forms of energy,and therefore entire universe,is also.
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Then we need to transfer consciousness into a more resilient medium, say silicon that does not suffer the fragility of biological structures. We can then look for something better after that, and so on. Perhaps we will eventually evolve into a god.
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Gravage:Do you really think that's posssible?If so,why don't we do it for extra safety,since every day is a risk for living?
However,from the past I know what narrators of many documentaries said that no species lives forever.Even if we succed to transfer our consciousnesses,it doesn't mean they will live forever because sooner or later they might die(if they,and they will,sooner or later to transform to another form of energy).
Thanks for replies!
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Re: Re: Question for Cris and James R.,if possible...

Originally posted by James R
Gravage:

<i>I just researched the entire "Religion" forum,and I've seen that you both,Cris and James,say that there is no evidence that there are gods-which I agree,and there are no evidences that there no gods-which I disagree.</i>

My view on this is that there is some evidence that there are gods. For example, many many people feel that there are gods, and that does not count for nothing.
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Gravage:Well,take it like these.Many people,actually almost everyone strongly believed Earth is the center of the universe,which,of course,has been proven that it isn't.
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On the other hand, there is no good <b>scientific</b> evidence for the existence of gods.

<i>Why you doubt that there are no gods?</i>

Because it is fundamentally impossible to prove that there are no gods.

<i>Because,we're not conscious and advanced enough to see thru this universe/reality(one universe=one reality).Even if there are beings,it doesn't mean they are gods,since gods are specifically described as omnipotent.</i>

I'm not sure I would require a being to be omnipotent to consider it equivalent to a god for all practical purposes. Omnipotence generally would lead to logical contradictions, so I don't think it is a realistic possibility.
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Gravage:I completely agree with you here.
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<i>Consciousness is created in the brain,so it can't stay for long time,since consciouusness and subconsciousness are shut down before the brain dies.</i>

That's actually a big question, known in philosophy as the <b>mind-body</b> problem. It's not as open and shut as you seem to think.
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Gravage:Take it like these.I remember when time I was driving a car.Than an passenger walked right in th front of me,and I wasn't watching.I was actually watching was talking with a friend,and than somehow I quickly stopped,but I wasn't aware that something happened,which means my brain has seen the passsenger was passing thru the street.It means,I wasn't self-aware of that passenger,but I brain has reacted.So,it does prove,at least,that cosnciousness is indeed created in the brain,since my self-awareness was temporarily shutdown and after it instantly "wakes up".
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Chris

Just to be picky

Originally posted by Cris
Also with the new understanding coming from Neurotheology we are beginning to see that spiritual experiences are being generated by the brain when subjected to certain conditions.
That's true. But so are experiences of stubbing your toe on a rock or hearing sounds. These experiments do not imply, let alone entail, that spiritual experiences are any less real that sounds and rocks are, unless you bite the bullet and adopt
idealism.

Of greater interest should be the question of a soul. As we dig deeper into neuroscience we are beginning to understand the physicality and deterministic properties of the brain. We now know that thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc can all be generated and affected by brain activity. There appears to be no place where a soul could reside or that it would have any meaningful function. [/B]
If you swap the word 'consciousness' for the word 'soul' then it can be seen that this is claiming more than neuroscience has achieved.
 
Originally posted by Canute
These experiments do not imply, let alone entail, that spiritual experiences are any less real that sounds and rocks are, unless you bite the bullet and adopt idealism.

If you swap the word 'consciousness' for the word 'soul' then it can be seen that this is claiming more than neuroscience has achieved.
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M*W: Excellent post, Canute! Hmmm...Swapping the word "consciousness" for the word "soul." It makes sense to me. Our individual consciousness/awareness can range from positive to negative with the midpoint being vacuous, I suspect. There is also the "collective consciousness." I'd like to hear more about this aspect of the "soul." When I go back to reread Bible scripture, and mind you, I don't believe the Bible is necessarily true, I replace the word "Lord" with the word "spirit" as in the One Spirit of God and Man. This way, the Bible appears to be more correct to me. Of course, not all parts, just some parts, because in different areas "Lord" could mean God, Jesus, Prophets, etc., but I like to think of "Lord" as our spirit.
 
Canute,

Just to be picky
No problem, pick away.

Also with the new understanding coming from Neurotheology we are beginning to see that spiritual experiences are being generated by the brain when subjected to certain conditions.

That's true. But so are experiences of stubbing your toe on a rock or hearing sounds. These experiments do not imply, let alone entail, that spiritual experiences are any less real that sounds and rocks are, unless you bite the bullet and adopt
idealism.
The issue isn’t that the spiritual experiences are not real, in fact they are extremely real, it is just that the cause of the experience is being shown to be very mundane and not supernatural, or rather that it isn’t necessary to have a supernatural cause.

Claims for supernatural causes occur when other more mundane causes are not apparent or obvious. Here the claims are being exposed as frauds since we now have simple material explanations. This doesn’t prove that the supernatural doesn’t exist but simply again that it is an unnecessary and non-credible explanation.

If you swap the word 'consciousness' for the word 'soul' then it can be seen that this is claiming more than neuroscience has achieved.
Then don’t swap the words. I take ‘soul’ here to mean a non-material supernatural component. And what we are seeing is that so far it is an unnecessary component. Consciousness on the other hand appears to be the consequence of a neural network.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Canute, The issue isn’t that the spiritual experiences are not real, in fact they are extremely real, it is just that the cause of the experience is being shown to be very mundane and not supernatural, or rather that it isn’t necessary to have a supernatural cause.

Claims for supernatural causes occur when other more mundane causes are not apparent or obvious. Here the claims are being exposed as frauds since we now have simple material explanations. This doesn’t prove that the supernatural doesn’t exist but simply again that it is an unnecessary and non-credible explanation.
I feel you've missed my point. The fact that spiritual experiences can be artificially stimulated in no way implies that they are generally illusions. Otherwise we would have to call all the material causes of our sensations illusions, for those sensations can also be artificially created. The research does not prove anything either way. After all we don't assume that because amputees often experience phantom limbs that arms and legs are illusory. However I agree that the supernatural is non-existent. Things happen or they don't, if they happen then they're not supernatural.

Then don’t swap the words. I take ‘soul’ here to mean a non-material supernatural component. And what we are seeing is that so far it is an unnecessary component. Consciousness on the other hand appears to be the consequence of a neural network. [/B]
Every other week some new theory is put forward. However it is not known to science how consciousness arises. As yet there is no evidence that it is a consequence of neural nets (although clearly everyday states of consciousness are affected by states of the network).

I don't know what a 'soul' is, (which is why I swapped the words) but certainly neuroscience has not disproved non-material components. In fact its continuing failure to do so is becoming increasingly interesting.

"Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. Nobody even knows what it would be like to have the slightest idea about how anything material could be conscious.
So much for the philosophy of consciousness"
- Fodor, J.A. Times Literary Supplement, July 3 1992

I think it's safe to say that nothing has changed since this was written.
 
Canute,

The fact that spiritual experiences can be artificially stimulated in no way implies that they are generally illusions.
But they aren’t illusions they are real experiences. The problem seems to be more about how the experiences are interpreted. The religionists want to assign the experience to external supernatural forces, i.e. the sensations are the result of a direct experience of God. The research shows that this isn’t true. It is the brain that generates the experience. If a god is involved then he would only be the trigger and not the experience. In effect the claim that one can experience God is false, one simply experiences natural sensations created by the brain.

Your analogy with stubbing your toe on a rock is quite relevant. The brain generates a sensation we call pain as a response. But you can obtain the same sensation by stubbing your toe on many different objects. What one wouldn’t say is that the pain is a direct experience of the stone. In the case of the spiritual experience, if a god exists then his involvement would be no more relevant than a rock.

Christians for example often claim as proof of God that they can directly experience him. Neurotheology demonstrates that these claims are false. They are experiencing nothing more than a sensation generated by the brain that gives no information about the trigger. In the same way that pain gives you no information about the nature of rock, except perhaps that it should be avoided.

…it is not known to science how consciousness arises. As yet there is no evidence that it is a consequence of neural nets (although clearly everyday states of consciousness are affected by states of the network).
So let’s see – the brain has some 100 billion neurons with some 100 trillion synaptic connections, forming massive neural networks. The processing power is about the equivalent of 10,000 super computers tightly coupled into a very small area. Seems to me like a pretty big clue as to where we will find human consciousness. The fact that we haven’t quite tied it down yet appears more to do with the currently incomplete and massive job of reverse engineering the brain, don’t you think?

I don't know what a 'soul' is, (which is why I swapped the words) but certainly neuroscience has not disproved non-material components. In fact its continuing failure to do so is becoming increasingly interesting.
That’s similar to taking a journey and en-route noting your continuing failure to be at your destination. It is a meaningless observation.

"Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. Nobody even knows what it would be like to have the slightest idea about how anything material could be conscious.
So much for the philosophy of consciousness"
- Fodor, J.A. Times Literary Supplement, July 3 1992

I think it's safe to say that nothing has changed since this was written.
Oh I don’t think you can really claim that. Here is one batch of science papers exploring consciousness. Clearly there is more than a slightest idea.

http://www.imprint-academic.demon.co.uk/SPECIAL/02_07.html

But of course your implication is that because we don’t know how consciousness operates then it might have supernatural origins. But now I can make a much more certain claim similar to yours – Nobody has the slightest idea how anything non-material could possibly exist let alone how it might interact with anything material. To imply that it enables consciousness is entirely vacuous.
 
canute

To imply that it enables consciousness is entirely vacuous.

i think chris just called you a dumb shit

:D
 
Cris,

Of greater interest should be the question of a soul. As we dig deeper into neuroscience we are beginning to understand the physicality and deterministic properties of the brain. We now know that thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc can all be generated and affected by brain activity. There appears to be no place where a soul could reside or that it would have any meaningful function. If there is no such thing as a soul then what purpose would gods provide? The concepts of both souls and gods combine to offer an afterlife environment where the soul would reside after death, and there are of course numerous imaginative fantasies that revolve around this basic concept. Reincarnation is of course a variation where the god concept is usually unnecessary.

It seems likely that as we unravel the mysteries of the brain, which to date show no need of a non physical component, that we will reach a full understanding and the concept of a soul will fade into irrelevance. Once this basic foundation of most religions is shattered then the fantasies of gods should similarly fall into irrelevance shortly after.
:cool: Gotta love the way Cris argues when it comes to religion:

Start with a premise: “Of greater interest should be the soul.

Further the premise with an unproved theory/hypotheses : “There appears to be no place where a soul could reside or that it would have any meaningful function.”

Assume this hypothesis to be true: “. If there is no such thing as a soul then what purpose would gods provide? The concepts of both souls and gods combine to offer an afterlife environment where the soul would reside after death, and there are of course numerous imaginative fantasies that revolve around this basic concept.”

Conclude: “Once this basic foundation of most religions is shattered then the fantasies of gods should similarly fall into irrelevance shortly after.”


Hey Cris, in case you did not already know, the ‘argument’ you just put forth is illogical. Yes, it appears that the brain affects ‘thoughts, emotions, etc’. This has no bearing on the notion of a soul. Heck, Canute is right when he says that you could substitute consciousness for soul—for this is essentially what the notion of the soul is based upon. The human can understand physical death—the human sees physical death. The human also sees itself—its physical entity. This allows the human to think of itself outside its physical body. This ability to realize the self is self-awareness is consciousness. Through the years therefore, the human has wondered what happens to this consciousness when the physical body dies. Cris, the notion of the soul and consciousness are inseparable.

And there currently is no understanding of how consciousness develops. If we have yet to develop computers that can approach the brain in processing power, we should at least be able to approach those of a rat—if one adheres to the notion of varying degrees of consciousness (will 100 supercomputers do?). In other words, unless one is able to explain consciousness to the degree of replication, the notion of a “non-material” soul will exist, for it is self-awareness that allows humans to be able to project themselves outside their body. ’

I don’t see that that is necessarily true. Infinity must exist otherwise nothing could ever have begun. This sets a precedent that it is possible for something to be infinite, in which case why not an intelligence.
I don’t see the notion that “infinity must exist otherwise nothing could ever have begun” as necessarily true. If we are to take the scientific viewpoint, nothing existed before the big bang; at least nothing realizable within this context. So, the universe begun, and time begun. We can measure how long ago everything begun. There was nothing prior, no infinity. Infinity exists as a notion only.

I believe the term ‘god’ is so ill-defined that to say one does or doesn’t exist is significantly premature. Einstein saw God as the perfection of a universe that reveals itself in the laws of Physics, i.e. a pantheist perspective. The Deist says that a god started everything and hasn’t been seen since. And the Judeo/Cristian/Islamic god is believed to be something that actively plays a role in the everyday lives of ordinary people.

The concept of a specific god tends to depend on human imagination and never on direct observation. The chances of such a fictional object with such bizarre properties, as alleged by institutions like Cristianity, actually being a reality is not worth serious consideration. As Einstein said such ideas are childlike.

“believe the term ‘god’ is so ill-defined that to say one does or doesn’t exist is significantly premature.”
---->>>Well, the definition is subjective and ubiquitous to every culture that ever walked the earth. Humans at different places independently developed various notions of a ‘god’. This “ill-definition” is through subjectivity and does not affect the existence of a ‘god’. But I suppose you are merely presenting a value based premise when you use “significantly premature’ without even bothering to expand on the definition of “ill-defined” and the reasoning that follows from a definition to a judgement on existence.

“The concept of a specific god tends to depend on human imagination and never on direct observation.”
---->>>>This also is untrue, as the notion of a god is subjective. Maybe if you could explain to us how the notion of a Christian God came to being without the aid of direct observation, it would be helpful. Also, why does a conclusion of something that is by nature outside direct observation need direct observation to justify its viability?
 
Originally posted by Cris
Canute,

But they aren’t illusions they are real experiences. The problem seems to be more about how the experiences are interpreted. The religionists want to assign the experience to external supernatural forces, i.e. the sensations are the result of a direct experience of God. The research shows that this isn’t true. It is the brain that generates the experience. If a god is involved then he would only be the trigger and not the experience. In effect the claim that one can experience God is false, one simply experiences natural sensations created by the brain.
I can't follow this argument. If you argue that the brain creates our experiences, and that we shouldn't assign them to external forces, then how can we tell what exists and what doesn't? Also you say that a God 'would only be the trigger', which seems to contradict the idea that he does not exist.

You are making the half-hidden assumption here that all experiences are created by brain/mind. This may be true, but many people would disagree and there is absolutely no proof of it.

What is more this assumption leads to all sorts of paradoxes of self-reference if you follow it through, since you have to ask which bit of the brain is creating the experience and which bit is having it, and which bit knows that it is having it, and which bit knows that it knows etc. Nobody has come up with a sensible answer to this yet. It requires infinite self-reference, but that doesn't seem to make sense.

Your analogy with stubbing your toe on a rock is quite relevant. The brain generates a sensation we call pain as a response. But you can obtain the same sensation by stubbing your toe on many different objects. What one wouldn’t say is that the pain is a direct experience of the stone.
No, but it's as near as we can get to a direct experience of it, and one cannot argue from this that the rocks don't exist, as Bishop Berkeley once pointed out.

In the case of the spiritual experience, if a god exists then his involvement would be no more relevant than a rock.
Agreed. So if this argument proves that God doesn't exist then it also proves that rocks don't.

Christians for example often claim as proof of God that they can directly experience him. Neurotheology demonstrates that these claims are false.
Any references? I've never found a mention of this result in the literature, or even any relevant research. Still, I've never read the Journal of Neurotheology. ;)

They are experiencing nothing more than a sensation generated by the brain that gives no information about the trigger. In the same way that pain gives you no information about the nature of rock, except perhaps that it should be avoided.
But here you are saying that there is a trigger external to the brain, just as Christians do.

So let’s see – the brain has some 100 billion neurons with some 100 trillion synaptic connections, forming massive neural networks. The processing power is about the equivalent of 10,000 super computers tightly coupled into a very small area. Seems to me like a pretty big clue as to where we will find human consciousness.
Possibly, and possibly not. There is no evidence whatsoever that consciousness depends on brain-power. Nobody has yet come up with a plausible hypothetical means by which the physical brain can self-reference itself into consious existence. Crick, Dennett and so on have tried, but their ideas can be shown to be flawed and they are not considered to be solutions.

The fact that we haven’t quite tied it down yet appears more to do with the currently incomplete and massive job of reverse engineering the brain, don’t you think?
I don't, no. I agree that many people do, but then many other don't. Chalmers is good on this. http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/papers/facing.html

That’s similar to taking a journey and en-route noting your continuing failure to be at your destination. It is a meaningless observation.
It doesn't prove anything I agree, except that as yet we haven;t made any progress on the ontology of consiousness. Also, it is suggestive that as yet there is not one theory of how brain gives rise to conscious experience that is generally considered plausible.

Oh I don’t think you can really claim that. Here is one batch of science papers exploring consciousness. Clearly there is more than a slightest idea.
http://www.imprint-academic.demon.co.uk/SPECIAL/02_07.html
Chalmers, Velmans, Dupre, etc. would make short work of those papers. So would I if you make me.

But of course your implication is that because we don’t know how consciousness operates then it might have supernatural origins.
No, I don't claim supernatural origins. I'm trying not to claim anything here except that neuroscience has proved nothing fundamental about consciousness except that brain states can affect it. It has not even been scientifically proved that it exists.

But now I can make a much more certain claim similar to yours – Nobody has the slightest idea how anything non-material could possibly exist let alone how it might interact with anything material. [/B]
Agreed, more or less. It's a bit of a scientific mystery. Thus Roger McGinn (a strictly academic philosopher) formally adopts 'mysterianism' and says we cannot know the answer. He does this because logic suggests that science cannot answer the problems of consiousness, he argues that it's the wrong tool for the job.

To imply that it enables consciousness is entirely vacuous.
I'm not sure what 'it' was here.
 
Originally posted by Canute
I don't know what a 'soul' is, (which is why I swapped the words) but certainly neuroscience has not disproved non-material components. In fact its continuing failure to do so is becoming increasingly interesting.

In short, the 'soul' is the individual (person) and 'consciousness' is the symptom of the existence of a soul. When a person dies there is absolutely no consciousness, meaning the individual soul is no longer present. The person is pronounced dead.
When the soul is present, we can know because that particular body is conscious and therefore alive. In this state the mind, body and soul are termed living entities. All living entites go through five transformations, the first of which is it comes into being (born), secondly it grows, thirdly it produces by-products, fourthly it dwindles (grows old) and finally it vanishes (death). At this point the soul leaves the body and transmigrates and forms another body where the prossess of tranformation begins again, this is called 're-incarnation. The next form it takes on follows the evolutionary prossess from plant to fish to reptile and so on (if that is the order). When it evolves to a human being, it has the opportunity to understand what it is and as such can break the cycle of birth and death by returning to its original state.
The nature of the soul is different from that of the body and the perceived world, it is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss, (sat, chit, ananda) whereas the material body/world is temporary, ignorant/dark and full of suffering (to the soul). The level of consciousness of the soul is determined by the body it inhabits and when it reaches the stage of human being, by its activities and asociations.
Perception is an interpretation formed in the cerebral cortex of the brain from frequency-coded information derived from the bombardment of sensory receptors by mechanical, chemical and/or electromagnetic energy. When we see something, the electromagnetic energy, that is light, bombards our sensory apparatus and eyes. The brain then interpretss that energy as whatever we pecieve, in the brain, not by the brain. Our subjective experiences, feeling, touch, sound, colour, consious desires, dreams, emotions, are literally time-coded patterns of change in what are called virtual photons...........

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Thefountainhed, and those arguing for souls,

Further the premise with an unproved theory/hypotheses : “There appears to be no place where a soul could reside or that it would have any meaningful function.”
My comment was based on past debates. Please see text below.

This is a long post originally written by Boris several years ago and who was, in my humble opinion, the most intelligent and informed member in the history of sciforums. At the time of writing he was a student of computational neuroscience.

The post covers most of the issues that demonstrate the significant improbability of souls. It is a long read but I believe well worth reading. The original text is in the archives although I have corrected spelling errors here and added some formatting for readability, otherwise the text is the same. I am copying it here again since these observations formed a significant inspiration to me in the way I view the soul concept and also most currently active members have never seen this. Enjoy.

Argument from interaction

Clearly, for a soul to have a meaningful connection to the body, it must be capable of interacting with matter. Yet, souls are defined as immaterial and not subject to the laws that govern matter. Hence, the paradox arises: by its definition, a soul must be both capable of interacting with matter, and not capable of interacting with matter. To elaborate,

Matter affects matter through interactions. For example, you can push a desk, or bludgeon a man, or dig a river. It is because matter is so "interactive", that we can make measurements, conduct experiments, and observe phenomena associated with matter. The soul, on the other hand, is by definition immaterial. Hence, with our scientific instruments we cannot detect it. If we could detect it, we could then determine its properties and structure and we would be able to materially interact with it, which would make the soul material.

But that's a funny thing, considering that the soul is supposed to interact with the body. After all, we are only aware of our world through our senses; and our conscious decisions directly translate into physical actions -- e.g. if I wanted to clap my hands together, I could do it. So it seems that material information must have a way to enter the soul, and material information must have a way of emanating from the soul and travelling to the body.

The latter of these phenomena has a definite effect on the body, and hence must be indirectly detectable. This is because the body is indeed material, and any changes introduced within it are thus immediately detectable with proper instruments. Thus, were the soul to feed information back to the body, scientists ought to be able to find the spot where information from the soul enters the body for the first time. (Of course, despite centuries of searching no such spot has been found.) But this again contradicts the notion that the soul is not detectable through material means (of course, this contradiction arises out of the already contradictory notion that the soul interacts with the body.)

Then there is the question of the very mechanisms through which the exchange between the soul and the body takes place. By definition, a soul is 100% immaterial. On the other hand, the body is 100% material. How do we build a bridge between the two? Does there exist a "something" that is both partly material, and partly immaterial? But anything like that would not make sense, since the idealist concepts of matter vs. essence are incompatible. Matter is temporary, while the soul is eternal. Matter is corrupt, while the soul is perfect. Matter possesses extension, density, mass, color, temperature, etc. -- while the soul has none of those properties. Matter can be subdivided, yet the soul cannot. How can "something" exist that possesses a mix of these contradictory properties? How can something be corrupt and perfect at the same time? How can something be massive and massless, colorful and colorless, extended and shapeless? So it seems there is no reasonable way that the gap between the immaterial and the material can be crossed so as to enable the communication between the soul and the body.

To sum up, two distinct points are raised here: first, the definition of the soul and its relationship with the body are contradictory, and second, there is no satisfactory explanation of how the soul can exchange information with the body.


Argument from neuroscience

For the purposes of this argument, we must first determine that of all the body parts, it is the brain that makes us who we are. After all, you can take a normal human, amputate all of her limbs, and she will still be defined as a human being. You can take a human being and cut out his heart, lungs, kidneys, bowels, etc. and he would still be a human being (for as long as surgical machines can do the work of the missing organs.) If you cut off somebody's head, and somehow manage to keep it alive, then it's the head we would point toward when we discuss that person; the headless body will no longer be ol' Joe -- since here's ol' Joe's head that speaks in Joe's voice and thinks and feels like Joe, and possesses all of Joe's knowledge, etc. So we can keep imaginatively (and nonchalantly) stripping Joe of body parts until only the brain is left floating in a jar. At this point, we can still safely point to the brain and say that it's Joe; we can incinerate the other body parts, but as long as the brain is alive, Joe is alive too. Incidentally, that's why clinical death is defined as brain death. Any other failed organ can be replaced, at least in principle; however a brain cannot be replaced. Even if Joe clinically died, and you transplanted Brent's brain into Joe's skull, all you would have done is transplant Brent's persona into Joe's body; Joe would still be dead as a doornail.

Now then, it seems that the brain is the crucial part of us that makes us who we are. Incidentally, the brain also physically controls the body. If you want to bend a finger, a train of signals has to travel from your brain down your spinal cord and through your peripheral nervous system all the way to the muscles of that particular finger, so that they contract or expand so as to bend the finger in the way you wanted. If the pathway between the brain and any particular part of the body is breached even at one spot, you will lose your control over that part of your body. Hence, the brain is not only the defining part of what it is to be human -- it is also the part that actually controls the body! So, if the soul is to interact with the body, it is clear that the soul must interact with the brain.

But where in the brain does this interaction with the soul occur? It turns out that there is no possible answer. As you may or may not know, the brain can be crudely subdivided into an old brain and the new brain, the latter composed of the left and right cerebral hemispheres. The old brain consists basically of the brainstem, and in humans is more or less a mere interface between the new brain and the spinal cord, as far as cognitive function is concerned. This is not to say that the old brain is insignificant, since it contains physiologically crucial centers controlling everything from heart beats to breathing to sleep-wake cycles. However, it is the new brain that is responsible for any behavior that we would consider above comatose. The new brain possesses vast tracts processing and combining information from the five senses, it possesses structures that plan, initiate, and control movement, it possesses structures responsible for emotions, it possesses structures involved in memory, attention, spatial navigation, object recognition, production, perception, and comprehension of speech, etc, etc, etc. In fact, brain damage studies show that every last bit of the new brain in adult humans is involved in at least one, and often several, cognitive tasks. So, it would seem that the soul must be in contact with the entire brain if it was to account for all of our human faculties. However, this does not hold when we consider abnormal physiology.

Certain birth defects cause some children to be born with only one cerebral hemisphere; other children lose a hemisphere to surgical intervention very early in life. Despite the fact that for an adult to lose a hemisphere would be absolutely devastating in terms of loss of function and aspects of personality, these children grow up to be nearly normal in all respects. This is just one example where the amazing plasticity of the brain shows itself in full glory. Thing is, the plasticity is lost early in life as the brain becomes increasingly organized, since for a highly structured brain plastic change would actually mean loss of function rather than gain. Yet, the very fact that people are alive who function normally with only one hemisphere (and a brain that is organized vastly differently!), as opposed to the "normal" people who have two hemispheres and a totally different brain organization -- poses difficulties for any proposed mechanism of interaction between the soul and the brain. Already, it would seem that the mechanism is not dependent on the soul, but must adapt to the developing brain on-the-go, so as to connect the soul to the brain correctly, whatever the final architecture of the adult brain may be.

The functional portion of the brain is composed of vast and very complex networks of a total adult average of 10,000,000,000 special cells called neurons (the bodies of these cells contain pigment and are often collectively referred to as "gray matter"). Each neuron sends out slender connections to other neurons, and an average neuron is connected to about 10,000 others (these interconnection fibers are wrapped in other special cells that form an electrical insulation around these "wires"; as a result the connections look white to the eye, and en masse are referred to as "white matter"). Of course, there are trillions of other cells in the brain besides neurons, which compose blood vessels, provide insulation and scaffolding for the connections between neurons, nourish neurons and clean up their waste, fight invading pathogens, etc -- but neurons are what actually does all the work of cognition. Neurons work by sending electrical impulses to other neurons, and accepting similar messages. Without going into too much gory detail, the effect of the messages on any particular neuron is mediated by a slew of factors from the actual chemicals used to pass the message between neurons, to the actual characteristics of the voltage signals that neurons send to each other. But the great and overriding point here is that neurons are literally billions of independent cells, communicating among each other, and every now and then sending impulses through your peripheral nervous system to affect what your body does. It seems that to control the body, the soul would have to connect individually to every last neuron in the brain and control what it does. But neurons die all the time, and new neurons are born also (although at a much slower rate.) Furthermore, the actual connections between neurons change constantly, and so the role any particular neuron plays in the overall function of the brain varies with time. So, how does the soul know what each neuron's current function is? Additionally, it seems that scientists can predict neuronal behavior precisely, based purely on the electrochemical impulses it is receiving from other neurons. So it appears that there is no mysterious soul behind the curtains telling this neuron to fire and that one to hold off once every millisecond; behavior of neurons is determined exactly by the input they receive from other neurons. And some of those other neurons receive a lot of their input from sensory organs, such as the pressure, pain, temperature, etc. (in other words, somatosensory) receptors on your skin and other organs, or from your eyes, ears, nose, or tongue, or from the vestibular apparatus in your inner ear, etc. So it seems that the brain is a deterministic machine that is driven by inputs from its environment. And all of those receptors and organs have also been studied in detail, and found to be purely biochemical and physically deterministic. There is no place left for the soul to operate!

There is no end to the problems that neuropathology brings for the soul, and I am not going to attempt to list even a small portion of such problems. However, I already mentioned the conundrum posed by neural plasticity. I'll present just one more "problem", and then move on to the next argument. The problem has to do with the split-brain patients.

Some people are subject to debilitating seizures, which are uncontrollable through drugs. A seizure is really a runaway chain reaction where a bunch of neurons starts firing chaotically, and the chaos spreads across the cortex, disrupting any cognitive function in its wake. Seizures can sometimes be combated through drugs, which help regulate neuronal activity and stop it from crossing a vital threshold above which it spins out of control. Newer methods include electrodes implanted directly into the particular brain region where seizures originate, so that an implanted computer can detect an onset of the seizure and apply a mild electric current between electrodes, which in effect "resets" the surrounding neural tissue and stops a seizure in its tracks. However, a while ago such advanced treatments were not available, and in extremely debilitating cases the only recourse was surgery. Most often, the small brain region where seizures originate was surgically removed (the mild loss in cognitive function was a small price to pay for the freedom from frequent seizures, and was especially tolerable for children whose brains are still plastic enough to compensate for the injury). However, in a few cases the offending region was crucial to certain treasured faculties, such as for example production or comprehension of speech, or control of posture. In other cases the offending region was just too large. In these cases, the surgeons did the next best thing to excising the part of the brain -- they selectively cut some of the connections between this brain part and other parts of the brain, so that the seizures would only occur locally and would not spread.

Seizures can occur in relatively localized regions of the cortex, but for some unfortunate people they occur globally, spreading from one hemisphere to the other like wildfire. In these cases, where excision was not an option, surgeons used to sever the huge bundle of fibers (called "corpus callosum") that connects the right hemisphere with the left. The corpus callosum is the major connection between the hemispheres, and although there are other small communication channels via which certain parts of the two hemispheres exchange information, when the corpus callosum is severed for all practical purposes the hemispheres are cut off from each other. For this reason, the patients that underwent this type of surgery came to be known as split-brain patients. And they permanently exhibit the weirdest behaviors. They really do have two separate, almost independent brains in their skull. Most of the time, the brains coexist peacefully. However, sometimes they don't agree with each other and the results can range from comic to absurd to horrible.

Because of the way the brain is wired up to the body, each hemisphere controls the opposite half of the body. So, the right hemisphere controls the left arm, leg, etc., while the left hemisphere controls the right half. One patient had a problem with his left hemisphere: apparently, it just couldn't stand his wife. At the mere sight of his spouse, his right hand would immediately form a fist, his right leg start making valiant attempts to get the body closer to the wife, and his right arm start violently swinging at the wife with a clear intent to do damage. With his left leg he would fight his right leg, and with his left hand try to restrain his right hand, all the while displaying a grimace of rage on the right side of his face while the left side of the face expressed clear alarm and distress. Another lady had an even more serious problem, with the two halves of her body engaging in a vicious feud. She literally beat herself up, tried to choke herself in her sleep, tore her own hair out, and all of that occurred in the context of the right side of her body doing damage to the left side, and vice versa. Fortunately, such horrible side effects tend to mellow out as time passes, but the patients never return to normal -- to the end of their lives, they literally remain split in half. Yet, if a single, indivisible, unified soul was controlling the brain, then surely cutting the link between the hemispheres would not preclude them from functioning in harmony! At the very least, they shouldn't be trying to kill each other! But contrary to all common sense as we used to know it, the two hemispheres literally turn into two distinct personalities. Each of them is capable of independent emotion, independent knowledge, and independent interaction with the world. For example, questions can be asked of the right hemisphere, and it will answer them (though not verbally, because in most people the right hemisphere is incapable of language) -- but the left, verbal, hemisphere will never know about either the questions or the answers, and will in fact tell you so when asked. Even more poignantly, the right hemisphere possesses knowledge that the left hemisphere doesn't, and vice versa. Both hemispheres exhibit structured thought and problem solving abilities, independent of each other. Both of them express feelings and emotions, again independently of each other. Each has its own stream of consciousness, again independent of the other hemisphere. So indeed, the two hemispheres are in most respects separate, distinct, independent human beings! Yet, they originally only had one soul. How would the doctrine of souls explain such a phenomenon?

Yet another difficulty lies in the transfer of memory or knowledge between the brain and the soul. For example, you might remember what you did during the last Christmas, and when asked you would tell us a story describing what happened. This process of recalling facts and then verbalizing them involves many crucial faculties that are just about as central to our stream of consciousness as anything -- so presumably at least a large part of the process occurs in the soul and not in the physical brain. However, it is well known that the brain contains certain regions specifically dedicated to memory. When these regions are damaged, the result is amnesia -- loss of memory -- despite the fact that all other cognitive functions remain intact. Now, what happens when an amnesic is asked to describe something they knew prior to the brain damage, but of which they now have no recollection? The request gets correctly processed and understood by the subject, as can be verified by questioning him about it. Presumably, such higher understanding resides in the soul, so the soul indeed knows what is being asked. The patient is also perfectly able to verbalize other facts, and to tell stories not connected to the particular lost memory -- so these faculties are preserved as well. Therefore, if the soul still retains the memory whose representation is lost in the physical brain, it should have no problem verbalizing that memory and telling stories about it, and thus in fact amnesia would never even be observed! Yet, amnesia is real and very predictable based on which regions of the brain are damaged. So, it seems that destroying a part of the physical brain utterly destroys the memories it used to help encode. This means that the soul does not possess memory; memory is purely a property of the brain. Which means that when the brain dies, all memories die with it. Which means that the entire personality dies with the brain, since memory includes, in addition to explicit facts, everything from learned skills such as language, coordinated movement, or art, to such things as preferences, attitudes, beliefs, etc. Which comes into a huge clash with all the claims of afterlife where the souls are supposed to retain memory of earthly existence and even maintain their pre-death personality.


Argument from neuropsychology

This gets to the reason why we conjecture the existence of the soul in the first place. In the old times, when people knew very little about the nature of life or cognition, it baffled them that certain objects were indeed alive, and other weren't. It baffled people even more why certain living creatures, such as humans, have civilizations, art, language, religion, etc. while other living creatures have none of the above. People also wondered what happened to them when they slept, as they often seemed to depart the regular world for other bizarre realities, inhabit bodies other than their own regular body, fly, and do all sorts of amazing things that other normal things just aren't seen to be doing. And then, people wondered what it would feel like to die, and what happens to their friends and family once their bodies are destroyed, and they also wondered where their stream of consciousness came from, and how come they can't remember anything prior to their early childhood. Thus came around suggestions that what all life has is something special, some kind of a "living essence” that separates it from non-life. You will find that particular idea in every single culture that ever existed, which goes to show just how natural such a conjecture is, and how easily it arises. It may have been a reasonable suggestion, until relatively recently when science began to unravel the true mechanisms of life and cognition.

Today, we know that the simplest forms of life contain no "living essence" at all -- they are merely very complicated chemical structures that are able to obtain energy and material from their environment, and to reproduce themselves. Thus, in one deft blow the pre-existing void between matter and essence is bridged. It stands to reason that if unicellular life does not possess a soul, same holds for multi-cellular life -- since multi-cellular organisms are nothing more than intricately organized and coordinated colonies of single specialized cells.

But what of the stream of consciousness, the emotions, the awareness, the sensations, the knowledge, the reasoning power that we all possess as humans? How do all of these weird qualities derive from mere cells? Well, the answer has not yet been entirely completed, and I personally hope to play a part in completing it. But the beta version goes something like this.

In what may at first glance appear to be a grotesquely oversimplified analogy, consider modern computers. What you see on your screen is a pretty complex visual image representing an attempt at a simple, elegant, and easy to comprehend User Interface. Behind that interface lies complex functionality that enables you to create documents, exchange information with other people, play games, create art, listen to music, render computer movies, simulate collisions of galaxies, analyze data, design other computers, and in general do an amazing variety of things. Most of those applications depend on arcane algorithms and complex protocols to work, of which you as a user have no knowledge or comprehension; all you work with is a friendly (or at least not as arcane as the source code) UI, which abstracts you away from all the hair-raising complexity that dwells on your CD-ROMs and inside your particular beige box.

The brain presents a somewhat analogous picture. What we observe is the outside, equipped with a "user interface" consisting of the body. We can interact with the body, we can communicate through it to the brain, and receive replies from the brain through the body. In essence, the body abstracts the brain from us, and as generic "users", we are not aware of how exactly the brain does what it does -- nor do we particularly care, as long as the brain does its job, and does it well. However, the analogy with computers is not complete, since whereas with computers we at least have engineers and programmers who understand exactly how the computer does the things it does, with the brain, at least at the outset, we possess no such knowledge. Thus, the problem of figuring out how the brain works can be compared to the following hypothetical situation: imagine that the enlightened ancient Greeks happen to chance on a complete modern computer system, loaded with all the software, connected to an uninterruptible power supply that will last for decades, and programmed so that its user interface is in ancient Greek (so they can at least partially decipher what it is that it does.) Now imagine just how hard it would have been for the poor Greeks to figure out how all that graphical splendor and functionality arises from that box cluttered with weird metallic and non-metallic parts. Heck, they'd have to develop the theory of quantum mechanics before they could understand how a single transistor works, and they'd have to develop ultra-powerful microscopes to even find those transistors. They'd have to develop an entire theory of computation before they could understand how the mysterious box is able to exhibit such strangely life-like interactivity. Then, they would have to reverse-engineer all the circuits of the computer, and understand exactly how they interact and tie together into a working system. Then, they'd have to reverse-engineer all the binary machine code on the computer's hard drive, and determine how it affects the CPU and other components to do the things that they do when various programs are run. Then they'd have to find ways to de-compile the machine code into a human-readable language, so that they may finally understand how the programs are put together, and how they work. Only then will they finally understand that the computer is not a magic or cursed item, that it is not a living organism or a gateway into another dimension, that it is not a God in disguise and not a fundamental key to all creation -- but that it is what it is, a machine that processes information according to certain pre-set algorithms.

An equivalent claim is made for the brain: it is a machine that processes information according to certain pre-set algorithms. And we face a horrendous task of reverse-engineering the brain in order to understand it, in a way very similar to the plight of the unfortunate ancient Greeks. Only the brain is even more daunting than the most complicated computer in existence. It sports an equivalent of 10,000,000,000 processors interconnected in complicated ways, all working simultaneously at 50 Hz in a cacophony of communication. It is fluid, and constantly changes its very structure. It computes not only with electricity, but also in a large way with biochemistry, which makes the behavior of its individual CPUs much more complicated to unravel than the behavior of a typical circuit. It is inexorably tied to the body throughout its development and function, and so to understand the brain we must also understand the workings of the body in all of their intricate detail. The brain is shaped by genetics as well as sensory and chemical input as it develops and matures, so we must understand all of those processes with a high degree of confidence and in great detail over time spans lasting well over a decade from birth to maturity -- if we are to understand how the brain acquires its structure and generates its circuits. And then, once we unravel the story of the hardware, we must understand how it translates into the actual behaviors that we observe -- in essence, we then must reverse-engineer the brain's algorithms and put them into plain English before we ever hope to claim that we completely understand how the brain works. The task is clearly not for the weak of heart. In fact, it can be argued that unraveling the human brain is among the few most difficult challenges science has ever faced. And the task will clearly take at least decades, if not centuries, to complete. But we are already making the first brave steps, and so far we have learned enough to very crudely describe what lies behind our various and wonderful cognitive powers.

In the course of our studies, we have localized regions of the brain, or "nuclei", that either by themselves or in concert with other nuclei directly correspond to various human faculties. For example, there is a clearly defined subsystem in the brain that is linked to emotion. Lesioning the lymbic system will turn a person into an automaton incapable of generating or expressing absolutely any kind of affection for anything. Such patients even talk in rhythmically perfect monotone, like robots from cheap sci-fi flicks. As another example, the memory subsystem has been located in another brain structure, the hippocampus and the parahippocampal and entorhinal cortex regions. Damage to these areas predictably results in various forms of amnesia, with the exact symptomology dependent upon exactly which parts of the system were damaged, and how extensively. As another example, take the ability to understand spoken speech. This capacity is at least in part dependent on a part of the cortex called Wernicke's area, damage to which instantly turns the speech a patient hears into meaningless gibberish, and has the same effect on the speech actually produced by the person (though they are not aware that they make no sense to the others; in fact they are usually quite distressed at the fact that the others are talking gibberish and can't understand what the patient is saying.) Amazingly enough, in a fully organized adult brain there even are regions devoted specifically to reading written text, or specifically to writing text. Damage to these regions results in strange symptomology, such as for example a person being able to read, but no longer able to write, or being able to write, but not being able to read back what they just wrote. Such study of neural pathology has produced an innumerable flood of findings like these, and the deluge has yet to show signs of subsiding.

Additionally, computational modeling and animal research have been providing insights into other crucial powers of cognition. For example, the faculty of vision has been, is, and will be studied with utmost intensity. As examples, we have discovered cells in the brain that respond to lines of various orientations in the visual field, or variously oriented and scaled gratings of alternating light and dark regions; we have found cells in the visual cortex that respond to local motion in a certain direction, or to a contraction or expansion of the local texture (indicating approaching or receding objects); we have found cells higher up in the processing hierarchy that combine those basic features into more complex items, such as corner, or circle, or crosshatch patterns, and we've found cells yet higher up that respond to entire objects only of a certain type, such as faces for example. We've tentatively began to trace the diverging pathways in the visual processing stream, where one pathway specializes in recognizing objects, while the other pathway specializes in determining the location of objects in space around the observer, or the observer's relative coordinates with respect to objects. We are currently constructing rather successful computational models of how rats tell where they are, based exclusively on the rat neurophysiology and actual electrical recordings from individual cells in rat brains. We have constructed a very successful neuro-computational explanation of how barn owls determine the direction of the sounds they hear. People are digging in on all levels, from planning, coordination, and initiation of motion, to hearing, somatosensory perception, mastication, memory, emotion, mechanisms of attention, to cognitive and neurobiological development, to language, etc, etc, etc. Slowly but surely, the brain's enigma is giving way and grudgingly surrendering territory. And absolutely at no point anywhere within this extensive and burgeoning research field has any research group ever found even a remotest hint of anything supernatural.

But what we actually do, at this time, know about the link between brain and cognition -- is that the various cognitive faculties that in the past could not even be imagined to stem from mere matter, derive from specific regions in the brain, and the relationships between these brain regions and how linked regions combine to create cognition, are very physical and well-defined indeed. Additionally, severe damage to a brain region (in adults) connected to some cognitive ability completely and permanently destroys that ability; no hint of its past existence can be recovered through the use of other faculties, as should have been the case if the "lost" faculty actually resided in the soul.


Argument from evolution

Well, this one's short and sweet, and will work against only a narrowed selection of various doctrines. It basically says that since, obviously, simple life forms do not have souls, and we are merely evolved forms of the same thing, then surely we don't have souls either. At a deeper level, the argument challenges the believer to define at which point living beings acquire souls. Do only humans have souls? But then you have problems with primates, since they are so incredibly similar to us both physically and behaviorally. Do only primates have souls? But then you have a problem with the simians, since monkeys are so similar to apes both physically and behaviorally. Do only primates and simians have souls? But then you have a problem with the prosimians, etc, etc, etc. Eventually, you are forced to retreat to a generalization over all mammals, then over all animals, and finally over all life -- at which point you arrive at a stark contradiction with a clearly observable fact -- that the lowest forms of life do not have souls.


Argument from development

This is somewhat similar to the argument from evolution. Here, you are challenged to define just at what point during development a human acquires a soul. It couldn't be at the point of egg fertilization, since at that time everything is still purely biochemical, and the fertilized embryo has no properties normally associated with a soul. It couldn't be during early embryonic development, since an early human embryo is anatomically and functionally indistinguishable even from fish embryos. So when is it that a human acquires a soul? The answer to that question is impossible similarly to how it is impossible to define a cutoff across different lifeforms -- because just as the spectrum of lifeforms on earth is fairly continuous in terms of their capabilities, form and function, the development of an embryo is similarly continuous. At no point during development does the embryo suddenly make a quantum leap and exhibits some feature it didn't have a second ago. This continuity makes it impossible to define a cutoff at which the soul definitely must be there. From another (and more mathematical) perspective, since a fertilized egg has no soul, then by induction over this smooth continuum of development we arrive at the conclusion that even a fully developed adult human doesn't have a soul.


Argument from objectivity

This calls into question the very need to have a concept of souls or afterlife. Neither are objective, in that neither are tangible, measurable, or independent of observer (e.g. neither can be detected by "brainless", mechanical scientific instruments that don't have a propensity for misinterpreting things like humans do). Neither can be tested, neither provides any tangible evidence for its existence. In fact, if one starts out with a (still futuristic) complete physical explanation of cognition, then one is not going to be likely to conjecture the existence of souls or afterlife -- simply because there would be no remaining evidence available that would prompt such a conjecture. Hence, objectively, the theories of "vital essence", or souls, or afterlife are outdated and superceded by modern science. As any invalidated theory should, therefore, the ideas of soul or afterlife properly belong in the history books, but no longer in the domain of serious discourse.


Argument from equivalence

This is where we assume that the brain has, at some point in the future, been scientifically unraveled to the point that absolutely everything is known, understood, and explained about its form and function. Then, we can imagine that the scientists of the future endeavor to replicate a complete human brain, but not in flesh in blood, but as a program running in some blindingly powerful supercomputer. The brain is simulated down to the last atom, complete with information input from simulated eyes that mimic human eyes, and simulated ears that mimic human ears, and all other sensory modalities equally well implemented, with a simulated body providing feedback to the brain, and a simulated ultra-detailed environment for that body to roam and interact with. Because the simulation replicates the function of a real human brain to the last detail, and it replicates a realistic environment for that simulated brain to mature in, the simulated human will certainly develop its own conscious stream of awareness, learn the details and workings of its environment, exhibit emotions, intelligence, sensations -- it will be altogether equivalent in all of its functions to an actual physical human. But it is painfully obvious that the simulated human does not have a soul, because in reality he is nothing but a pattern of bits in the memory banks of our supercomputer. Ironically, if we were to simulate not one such human, but an entire tribe living in some virtual jungle, and allow the simulation to progress across many generations, the humans will develop language, culture, and even religion, and likely one of their first metaphysical conjectures will have to do with the fundamental distinction between life and nonlife -- the "vital essence".
 
Very good, and a common neuroscientic view. However it is philosophically naive. I don't want to argue with him about the 'soul' since there are too many definitions of 'soul'. Also it's a bit long to reply to properly. However to take one point as an example.

He argues that consciousness is caused but not causal. This is a paradoxical view. In philosophy of mind terms he is saying that supervenience is one way. This is not considered a very plausible hypothesis on logical grounds, and has been addressed by Pereira and Wrigley in a paper titled 'Is Supervenience Asymetric' at http://cogprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00000391/00/revads.htm

They conclude that the idea doesn't make sense.

It is possible to dismantle his other conclusions similarly. However he does state the problem well - these are the certainly some of the main issues that need addressing.
 
Thefountainhed,

I don’t see the notion that “infinity must exist otherwise nothing could ever have begun” as necessarily true.
You argued elsewhere that everything is cause and effect. If the big bang sprang into existence suddenly then what caused it?

Either it spontaneously came from nothing or something preceded it. But we have a basic difficulty here since there is an implication that the big bang was also the beginning of time and it would appear to make no sense to talk of a time before time began.

For any action to occur time must be present. In its simplest form any action is a transition from one state to a slightly different state, and that requires time to pass. The transition from no-time to time is an action that would require time to be present to be effective. We now have a paradox since for time to come into existence time must be present. I would suggest here that there can never be a point where time did not exist otherwise time could never have begun.

So how about a super being who can exist outside of time and could create time? But this would be incomprehensible. For this being to have any meaning it must be able to invoke actions and every action requires time. Even in the creation of time there would be a ‘before’ and an ‘after’, i.e. time is involved.

I simply cannot conceive of a scenario where time could not exist; and for anything to happen then time must have been present. So can there have ever been a beginning to everything? No, since time must precede everything which means time must have always existed, i.e. is infinite.

From this it follows that the big bang cannot have been the beginning of the universe, time must have preceded it.

Perhaps the universe is cyclic -

http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/steinhardt.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/new_universe_020425.html

or perhaps there is a multiverse –

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000

Either way, the big bang theory is still evolving and morphing and it would be premature to conclude it is a beginning of anything, to do so would place us in the same category as those early theorists who claimed the earth was at the center of the universe. All we can claim at the moment is that we have reached the limits of what our measurement instruments can tell us. We don’t know what caused the big bang but there are plenty of cosmologists who have a wide variety of hypotheses.
 
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