Question for Atheists and Agnostics

[Present]

And as for doing what pleases them, I don't think there's any difference between atheists and nominal Christians in that regard. Do you?

no

Aren't fun bible stories a tad hard for a 7 year old to swallow?

they werent for me. learning about "love your neighbor as yourself", the ten commandments, parables of jesus.

No child starts off believing in God. Nobody knows there is supposed to be a god until somebody tells them. Atheism is the natural starting point, then, wouldn't you say?

im not saying that they would have to understand God but rather the morals that jesus taught. atheism is where we started but now that we have religion why is it wrong that if they so desire they choose that over atheism.

He might very well. But fulfilment depends very much on how you judge you've lived your life, doesn't it?

yes, and to me thats what matters for my children, they live fullfilled lifes, even if it is a matter of his own oppinion. wether or not he is a great use to society is secondary.

I don't see any reason why a child won't be of benefit to society just because he hasn't been fed "fun bible stories".

your right

An atheist isn't choosy. He believes ALL religions are wrong, without favoritism.

is atheism not a loose form of religion?

Why not skip to the end, and just bring him up as an atheist, then?

that may not be what is right for him, he might not find the same joy in reason and his own intelegence as i do. and for that reason i wont force atheism upon him.

Again, you assume that atheist parents don't teach their children moral lessons. You're wrong about that.

yes i was wrong, that was a stereotype of atheists as people who choose not to care

What if he's wrong? What if God doesn't exist?

it doesnt matter that he be right.

 

[Mythbuster]

im not saying that they would have to understand God but rather the morals that jesus taught. atheism is where we started but now that we have religion why is it wrong that if they so desire they choose that over atheism.

If you want to teach your child with stupid arabic fairytale. Go-Ahead !
A good parent doesnt need a guidence to raise a child.

http://www.truechristian.com/confessionbooth.html

 

[Present]

Your kidding, right? I'd like to see you quantify the assumption that "a good deal of atheists are people who simply don't care about what will happens (sic) when they die...[etc]." Atheists and agnostics accept that this life is what we get. One chance. If there is an afterlife, it hasn't been demonstrated or proven, so there's absolutely NO SENSE in living as if there were. Thus, we live THIS LIFE to the fullest and we respect THIS LIFE and the lives of others. It is, after all, the only one they get.

are you denying that there are no people who will proclaim that there is no god just so that they can live with no morals at all. sure there is that side of the spectrum which you described but there is also a less educated side.

and by saying "thus we live this life to the fullest" do you mean that you try your hardest to simply 'eat drink and be merry' or do you mean that you try to learn, teach and do the most for yourself/ humanity?

And it is theism that is fast reducing the number of scientists that our nation's universities are producing and we will soon loose our foothold in the world as the world superpower in science and innovation.

1.I am not saying that theism is what is right for our country.

2.a great mind (such as his would likely be if he were to find atheism) would no doubt continue to on to become an engineer, scientist, teacher, or perhaps politician.

 

[FallingSkyward]

You mean those ancient societies where the people thought the world was flast as a pancake and the sun went round the earth? Thinking up invisible rulers would be quite natural for a people that didn't understand much about the planet.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make--looking to a higher power for answers is <i>natural.</i> Atheism is not the default belief, theism is; this is demonstrated throughout history. Even now, the multitude of information we've gained about the planets and universe does not even remotely negate a higher power. Until science explains why/how everything/the first thing came to be in existence(hah!), people will understandably revert to this seemingly instinctual yearning for a god.

If you take some time to look at gods, you'll see they reflect the environment. Egyptian gods were all crocodiles and jackals, Indian gods are elephants, South American gods were generally snakes etc. The activities of those gods was also dependant upon the weather.

The Egyptian "animal gods" were not the gods themselves but the manifestation of gods. Animals were rarely if ever worshipped as gods in ancient Egypt, but were akin to cult statues. They were thought of as a way for the gods' will to be incorporated into human life. The Egyptians had a complex religious system in which they believed in an original creator and an afterlife...the gods were not all animals. In Egypt at least, good weather was seen as favor from the gods...an example of their presence in Egyptian society, but their actions were certainly not limited to weather.

I suppose it's why there's no god of the English - It would have to look like a badger or squirrel and would never have killed naughty humans with anything other than rain.

Or tooth infections... =)

 

[Mythbuster]

are you denying that there are no people who will proclaim that there is no god just so that they can live with no morals at all. sure there is that side of the spectrum which you described but there is also a less educated side.

and by saying "thus we live this life to the fullest" do you mean that you try your hardest to simply 'eat drink and be merry' or do you mean that you try to learn, teach and do the most for yourself/ humanity?

Morals doesn't come from the bible Pepito, they come from our mother. Just like any animals in this planet. Mother give food to survive and from there you learn.

 

[FallingSkyward]

Why do you not teach your "Child" about the Death, Destruction, Atrocities, Hypocrisies, Genocide to mention a few, for witch your Religion is responsible?

Telling the truth will set you free.

You sure this was directed at me? If it was, you completely misunderstood my post.

 

[spidergoat]

I'm not having any children. Part of Christianity seems to be an impetous to increase their numbers through breeding.

 

[Mythbuster]

You sure this was directed at me? If it was, you completely misunderstood my post.

No.

Humans need to lighten up! Their gods and religions are dreary, humorless, wrathful, intolerant, oppressive and generally unpleasant. There is no love, no joy, no fun! Humans are under the dominion of ideologies that are slowly but surely killing them. They need to release them and be free! No one is going to punish them for enjoying life, and there is no point to living if they can't enjoy it. No good god person wants to see people stumbling around in dread seriousness, doing cockamamie rituals and constantly beating up themselves and others. Life is a joke. There is no purpose, so everyone is free to create his or her own, making it as amusing, joyous and scrupulous as possible.

Happiness.

 

[Present]

Morals doesn't come from the bible Pepito, they come from our mother. Just like any animals in this planet. Mother give food to survive and from there you learn.

i dont beleive i said that morals came from the bible and also... i dont think i'll be letting mother earth influence my childrens morality.

 

[Starman]

You sure this was directed at me? If it was, you completely misunderstood my post.

I had to read your post twice and after I responded I thought OPPS!!!

Then I read it again.

When you stated:

Then why has virtually every society in the history of the Earth believed in some higher power? This remarkable desire to have life's questions answered by something greater permeates throughout culture, race and time. Indeed I'd say the starting point, once this thought process does start, is in fact to believe in a god, no?

I thought is this a person who is a religious fundamentalist? Is he arguing in favor of worshiping a god?

It was confusing and I really meant to post this towards "Present"
the person who started this thread or anyone who is a Christian.

 

[James R]

FallingSkyward:

No, atheism is not the natural starting point. The young child is devoid of original thought about the subject. She may get to a point in her intellectual development and ask, "Where did everything come from, daddy?" but from there, her mind is molded by the parents. The child neither believes nor doesn't believe in a God until the parent directs him/her.

You don't seem to give children much credit. Children don't just blindly believe everything they are told. They question things.

Nobody knows there is supposed to be a god until somebody tells them, eh? Then why has virtually every society in the history of the Earth believed in some higher power?

Organised religious practices are always spread from one person to another. That is why until recently religions have been largely confined to particular geographic areas.

Who comes up with a particular religious idea or observance in the first place? One creative, imaginative person.

Why did this happen independently in so many different groups of people? That's more complicated. Religious ideas stem largely from the observation of coincidence and apparent correlation. Human beings are very susceptible to seeing patterns even where there are none. If I dance and it happens to rain, I might believe that my dance caused it to rain. How could a dance cause rain? Well, maybe there's some kind of human-like being who likes my dancing and sends rain in return. It's not such a big jump - especially if rain usually follows my rain dances. And that is not unlikely if I live, for example, in a rainforest.

This remarkable desire to have life's questions answered by something greater permeates throughout culture, race and time. Indeed I'd say the starting point, once this thought process does start, is in fact to believe in a god, no?

The idea of a "god" requires a certain level of sophistication. But I agree with you that there is a tendency to believe in the supernatural, for the reasons I gave above.

 

[James R]

Present:

they werent for me. learning about "love your neighbor as yourself", the ten commandments, parables of jesus.

I went to Sunday School to learn all that when I was young. I think all those stories struck me mostly as good stories, with a good moral message. But they still sounded a bit like fairy tales to me.

atheism is where we started but now that we have religion why is it wrong that if they so desire they choose that over atheism.

I didn't say it was wrong to choose religion over atheism. I can certainly understand why people do that. But that wasn't really what we were talking about.

is atheism not a loose form of religion?

Some people distinguish "strong atheism" from "weak atheism". Strong atheists believe there is no god. However, such a belief can never be fully proved, so such a belief must rely on a kind of faith. Thus, strong atheism could be called a kind of religion, though a rather strange one, since it requires no particular observances or code of ethics from its adherents.

Weak atheists, on the other hand, simply say that there is no good reason to beleive in a god or gods, because there's no good evidence that gods exist. Good evidence could change their minds. Weak atheism isn't any more of a religion than is science, in my opinion.

that may not be what is right for him, he might not find the same joy in reason and his own intelegence as i do. and for that reason i wont force atheism upon him.

I don't think atheism should be "forced" on anybody. Or any other religious belief. I think children should be free to form their own views. But that doesn't mean going to the extreme of presenting 100 different religions to a child and asking him or her to choose one, either.

 

[spidergoat]

If I did have children, I would teach them morals with Aesop's Fables.

 

[Mythbuster]

If I did have children, I would teach them morals with Aesop's Fables.

Buddhism is nice, I like Buddhism, mainly because it's more philosophy than religion though. You aren't oppressed and there is no "hell" or shuch to oppress you with and no need to believe in a god

 

[Hapsburg]

Use the Brother's Grim fairy tales is ya wanna teach kids morals through fairy tales. And Aesop's fables. They make good moral stories without the religion thing.

 

[Mythbuster]

Disney cartoons teach morality and many friendly TV shows for the kids. Let them be happy with the magic of animation... adults love them too. I still do

Disney as an creativity and imagination inspiration. Cinderella, Pocahontas, The Little Mermaid...

 

[Cris]

FallingSkyward,

No, atheism is not the natural starting point. The young child is devoid of original thought about the subject.

Atheism is typified by the absence of theistic belief. So the natural starting point from birth is atheism.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I would just like to know how you plan to raise your children.

Same as anyone else... just with an emphasis on not substituting truth or the unknown with fantasy.

ive always thought that a christian upbringing was always better this is for a couple of reasons.

1. if your child goes to a christian school and goes to church in their early years, they are taught values and about morality both ideas are highly beneficial to them and society in general.

The same or better results can be accomplished without religion.

2. if your child doesnt grow up to be as intellegent as you then they could continue to follow christianity and their beleifs would give their life meaning. also, much of lifes trauma is easier if there is a god who you can blame, or even pray to.

wadaya think?

I don't think that intelligence is something you grow into... regardless, the question seems to be asking 'why not use fantasy to promote emotional health in stupid children?'. My answer is that truth can be used to promote emotional health just as effectively.

 

[FallingSkyward]

FallingSkyward,

Atheism is typified by the absence of theistic belief. So the natural starting point from birth is atheism.

Absence, or conscious absence? That is an important distinction.

 

[Cris]

Falling,

Absence, or conscious absence?

It doesn't matter. Thiesm is a belief that gods exist. Until taught that or until they develop the idea themselves then everyone is atheist, i.e. without theistic belief.