exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Who is "us"?
Quantum Mecahnics And Consciousness.
- Thread starter BIGFOOT
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Who is "us"?
No, as usual, you don't understand. This link may help you too: http://quantumtantra.com/bell2.html
Bell's theorem, as the name should indicate to you, is pure math - tells how frequently two sets of independent binary (only 1 or 0) random number strings should be the same at the same time if say a new number is generated by both generators every minute.
Obviously that is 50% as no matter what the number produced by generator "A" the number generated by the other random number generator will be the same, half the time.
If however the generators are not truly independent of each other then then can agree more than 50% of the time. If they are "perfectly locked" together, for example same random number generator program, in two different computers, with both started at the same time with the same "seed number" then they agree - produced the same result (both give 1s or both give 0) in synch with each other. This (and including Bell's theorem) is just math - nothing to do with physics or reality yet.
Where that comes in is with experiments on "entangled quantum items" with two identical items. Typically photons or particles with spin. Very hard to make such entangled systems, but it has been done (probably never by nature, I think, but don't know every thing about nature) but your idea that the whole universe is one big entangled system in God's mind/ creation, is non-sense.
These entangled quantum systems can be become widely spread out in space. 10 Km has been achieved, possibly more as that was more than 30 years ago; and at location (1) a very quick measurement can be made, so quick that the results can not even at the speed of light be sent to location (2) Yet when the same measurement is made at location (2) and also recorded the sequences of the two records, later compared "anti-agree" (spin up when other is spin down etc.) up to 75% of the time, not just 50% of the time as they would if the measured valued were independent of each other.
Not what Einstein expected when he and two others suggested doing this test. Einstein knew that information about the results at location (1) could not get to Location (2) in time to influence the results there. He believed "God did not role dice." like QM was suggesting. He expected the anti-correlation to be 50% showing the QM predictions (and indeed the whole theory) was wrong. Well the results tuned out to show Einstein (and you BTW) was wrong. The results CONFIRMED THE PREDICITON OF QUANTUM THEORY. That does not prove QM is fully correct but some of its predictions have been confirmed by measurements to about 17 decimal places, so it is as close to being correct as it gets. (Measurement of the "fine structure constant" as I recall give the value predicted by QM theory that agree with the measurement that well)
Your idea that Bell's theorem (or inequality as it is often called) disproves QM or blocks more progress in understanding "reality" is simply false.
Crudely put: If your God does exist, he likes to roll dice so that QM appears to be the most precise predictor of reality man has yet discovered!
BTW the entangled pair is 100% anti-correlated. It is just that when a spin up particle or photon polarized at X degrees to the vertical, arrives at our detector it is not aligned exactly with transmillion axis of the detector, which may be vertical, so the detector can mistakenly measure and record it as having some other polarization than it actually has. This can and does, happen at both locations so on average this perfect "anti-correlation" is observed at most*, only 75% of the time.
* If the process used to produce "entangled pairs" was not perfect but let some normal (independent) photons hit the detector, then the results will be between 50% and 75% anti-correlated. "Bell's inequality" basically states that the percentage of the results P with anti-correlations is: 50% < P < 75%. P's actual value will depend on how well the experiment is done.
Drawing above and text below are from the link given at start of this post.
They treat the stings of 0s & 1s as a message in code sent between Bob & Alice and SPOT is a simple detector built with bi-refrigent "Iceland spar" crystal.
A's move causes a mismatch of 1 quarter of the bits in the message. Likewise B's move causes a mismatch of 1 quarter of the total bits. Taking both moves together (and assuming a local reality) the most mismatch that can occur is 2 quarters.
1 + 1 = 2 (or less) is what a local reality predicts.
However quantum theory and quantum fact lead to an entirely different outcome. The combined moves of A and B result in a mismatch of 3 quarters of the total number of bits in the message.
1 + 1 = 3 is what nature actually produces. No local reality can explain these facts. Therefore reality must be non-local. {for entangled QM systems}
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No, as usual, you don't understand. This link may help you too: http://quantumtantra.com/bell2.html
Bell's theorem, as the name should indicate to you, is pure math - tells how frequently two sets of independent binary (only 1 or 0) random number strings should be the same at the same time if say a new number is generated by both generators every minute.
Obviously that is 50% as no matter what the number produced by generator "A" the number generated by the other random number generator will be the same, half the time.
If however the generators are not truly independent of each other then then can agree more than 50% of the time. If they are "perfectly locked" together, for example same random number generator program, in two different computers, with both started at the same time with the same "seed number" then they agree - produced the same result (both give 1s or both give 0) in synch with each other. This (and including Bell's theorem) is just math - nothing to do with physics or reality yet.
Where that comes in is with experiments on "entangled quantum items" with two identical items. Typically photons or particles with spin. Very hard to make such entangled systems, but it has been done (probably never by nature, I think, but don't know every thing about nature) but your idea that the whole universe is one big entangled system in God's mind/ creation, is non-sense.
These entangled quantum systems can be become widely spread out in space. 10 Km has been achieved, possibly more as that was more than 30 years ago; and at location (1) a very quick measurement can be made, so quick that the results can not even at the speed of light be sent to location (2) Yet when the same measurement is made at location (2) and also recorded the sequences of the two records, later compared "anti-agree" (spin up when other is spin down etc.) up to 75% of the time, not just 50% of the time as they would if the measured valued were independent of each other.
Not what Einstein expected when he and two others suggested doing this test. Einstein knew that information about the results at location (1) could not get to Location (2) in time to influence the results there. He believed "God did not role dice." like QM was suggesting. He expected the anti-correlation to be 50% showing the QM predictions (and indeed the whole theory) was wrong. Well the results tuned out to show Einstein (and you BTW) was wrong. The results CONFIRMED THE PREDICITON OF QUANTUM THEORY. That does not prove QM is fully correct but some of its predictions have been confirmed by measurements to about 17 decimal places, so it is as close to being correct as it gets. (Measurement of the "fine structure constant" as I recall give the value predicted by QM theory that agree with the measurement that well)
Your idea that Bell's theorem (or inequality as it is often called) disproves QM or blocks more progress in understanding "reality" is simply false.
Crudely put: If your God does exist, he likes to roll dice so that QM appears to be the most precise predictor of reality man has yet discovered!
BTW the entangled pair is 100% anti-correlated. It is just that when a spin up particle or photon polarized at X degrees to the vertical, arrives at our detector it is not aligned exactly with transmillion axis of the detector, which may be vertical, so the detector can mistakenly measure and record it as having some other polarization than it actually has. This can and does, happen at both locations so on average this perfect "anti-correlation" is observed at most*, only 75% of the time.
* If the process used to produce "entangled pairs" was not perfect but let some normal (independent) photons hit the detector, then the results will be between 50% and 75% anti-correlated. "Bell's inequality" basically states that the percentage of the results P with anti-correlations is: 50% < P < 75%. P's actual value will depend on how well the experiment is done.
Drawing above and text below are from the link given at start of this post.
They treat the stings of 0s & 1s as a message in code sent between Bob & Alice and SPOT is a simple detector built with bi-refrigent "Iceland spar" crystal.
A's move causes a mismatch of 1 quarter of the bits in the message. Likewise B's move causes a mismatch of 1 quarter of the total bits. Taking both moves together (and assuming a local reality) the most mismatch that can occur is 2 quarters.
1 + 1 = 2 (or less) is what a local reality predicts.
However quantum theory and quantum fact lead to an entirely different outcome. The combined moves of A and B result in a mismatch of 3 quarters of the total number of bits in the message.
1 + 1 = 3 is what nature actually produces. No local reality can explain these facts. Therefore reality must be non-local. {for entangled QM systems}
First off, I have not disputed QM findings. Rather, I am drawing conclusions from what you scientists have found. Bells Theorem states that if the predictions of the quantum theory are true, i.e that matter particles exists as a set of probabilities, then, its improbable to expect the universe to be influence by laws of local causes. And therefore no “hidden variables” will ever give rise to the same results as quantum theory. Is that what experiment after experiment have found? In every experiment, (Like the famous Allain Aspect ) Bell inequalities are violated by quantum physics experiments , proving the EPR experiment was false. Now, having showed that reality is influenced by non-local laws, other scientists have pushed the logic further. But there is yet to be consensus. Now, I am not a physicist, and my interest inn QM is merely for fun and curiosity.
I have been persuaded by David Bohm's argument, in regard to the inference of the non-locality of Quantum Systems. He gives analogy of an aquarium. David Bohm argued that what happened during the EPR experiment is not that , subatomic particle were moving and having a mystical communication. He suggested that the idea of communication was an illusion. That its not as if one were applying an experiment in two particles. Rather most likely, it was the same particle! He gave the following illustration. Imagine an aquarium with a fish. Imagine, also that you are not able to see this aquarium directly, but that your knowledge of it and what is in it, come from two television monitor in a room. These two monitors receive signals from two television cameras, one in front of the aquarium, and the other at its side. As you look at these two television monitor connected to different cameras, you might assume that the fish on each screen is a different entity. But as you closely observe them, you notice that there is some strange relationship between them, in that when ever one turns right, the other one makes a contra turn. When one is staring straight ahead, the other is staring at the side. At some time, you might even think that the two fish are communicating with each other. But this is not the case. Its just one fish, whose perception of it is distorted by the mechanism of observation. Bohm says that this is what happened in regard to measurement of subatomic particles by Allan Aspect team.
Now, supposing David is right, and that the two particles are actually one? The implication is actually staggering. In fact, he takes his argument further, and suggests that the Universe maybe structured like one gigantic virtual phantasm, or hologram, with every part of the hologram having information about the whole hologram. So,my argument is that as long as QM is confirmed as correct, does not that put an end to the classical approach of science?
As for your statement that "If your God does exist, he likes to roll dice so that QM appears to be the most precise predictor of reality man has yet discovered!" God, did not create the Universe a long time ago, and then left its as it is. God is always creating! And the so-called "uncertainty principle" in QM, is only uncertain-to man. To God, its the Certain Principle of the Word of God. I am further persuaded by Wave Mechanics” theory of Dr. Milo Wolff that mater exisst as Spherical Wave in Motion. Being the Word of God. “Yes, as the rain and the snow comes down from the heavens and do not return without watering the earth, making it yield and give growth to provide seed for the sower, and bread for the eating, so, the word that goes out of my mouth, does not return to me empty without carrying out my will, and succeeding in what I sent it to do. Isaiah 55:10-11