Quantum Creationism -- Is It Science Or Is It Religion?

[Baldeee]

Yes, I don't think my statement lends itself to your interpretation. The statement was in reference to the probabilistic self-ordering of chaotic systems (see chaos theory). Entropy is a result, not a cause.

Nor is chaos a cause.
I am merely pointing out that your statement implied chaos to be a cause.

What is it that causes the self-ordering of regular patterns within a chaotic system? Surely not entropy?

That would likely be whatever the underlying laws are.
Entropy, Chaos, are not such, in and of themselves.

On the contrary, it is you who is arguing "entropy", not Quantum Creationism.

I am arguing no such thing.
I am merely pointing out flaws in your arguments.
I have made no argument in favour of any position.

Indeed, and what are the implications of a "permittive condition"?
Are we talking about wave function collapse as a creative quantum event? Is spacetime permittive of electro/magnetic wave functions? I hope so.

???
You are missing the point: there is no such word as permittive.
It seems you mean permissive, or permitted, but it also seems you are too preoccupied to stop and comprehend your linguistic faux-pas.

So I'll leave you be.

 

[DaveC426913]

You are missing the point: there is no such word as permittive.
It seems you mean permissive, or permitted, but it also seems you are too preoccupied to stop and comprehend your linguistic faux-pas.

Instead of 'this thing has these properties', Write4u prefers 'this thing is that'.

Smaller, more compact sound bites play better into his fantasy that - some day - he will be quoted as having "coined the phrase" that finally, succinctly describes the universe.

That is his motivation for spending more time refining his buzz phrases than actually understanding the physics - or even the words.

 

[Write4U]

I am merely pointing out that your statement implied chaos to be a cause.

OK, let me assure you it was not intended as such.

That would likely be whatever the underlying laws are.
Entropy, Chaos, are not such, in and of themselves.

Exactly.

You are missing the point: there is no such word as permittive.
It seems you mean permissive, or permitted, but it also seems you are too preoccupied to stop and comprehend your linguistic faux-pas.

Yes, the word "permittivity" is used in science in describing the properties of "plasma".

AFAIK, plasma was the earliest state of the universe.

The plasma in the earliest universe is called a quark–gluon plasma (QGP). Modern researchers believe it was present in the first 0.000001 second of the Big Bang. So imagine the state of matter in our present-day expanding universe. Jun 16, 2021

We have studied a substance called quark-gluon plasma that was the only matter which existed during the first microsecond of the Big Bang. Our results tell us a unique story of how the plasma evolved in the early stage of the universe.

First the plasma that consisted of quarks and gluons was separated by the hot expansion of the universe. Then the pieces of quark reformed into so-called hadrons. A hadron with three quarks makes a proton, which is part of [the cores of atoms].

These cores are the building blocks that constitute Earth, ourselves and the universe that surrounds us.

https://earthsky.org/space/1st-microsecond-of-the-big-bang/#

Permittivity - Wikipedia
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Permittivity

In electromagnetism, the absolute permittivity, often simply called permittivity and denoted by the Greek letter ε (epsilon), is a measure of the electric ...
Vacuum permittivity
It is a measure of how dense of an electric field is "permitted" to ...
Relative permittivity
Permittivity is a material's property that affects the Coulomb force ...
Polarizability
Polarizability usually refers to the tendency of matter, when ...
Electric displacement field
is the vacuum permittivity (also called permittivity of free space ...

More results from wikipedia.org »

And we are talking about the creation of the universe itself, no?

Can we say that plasma offers a permittive environment?

 

[Write4U]

That is his motivation for spending more time refining his buzz phrases than actually understanding the physics - or even the words.

I would say it is science that uses the english language in a cavalier manner.

The word "permittivity" is not an invention of science. It is derived from the word "permit" and if science says that there is no word spelled permittive, it is speaking outside its own area of knowledge.

per·mit1
verb
past tense: permitted; past participle: permitted
/pərˈmit/

1. give authorization or consent to (someone) to do something.
   "the law permits councils to monitor any factory emitting smoke"
   
   Similar:
   allow, let, authorize, sanction, grant, grant someone the right, license, empower, enable,
   Opposite: forbid, prohibit
   • authorize or give permission for (something).
     "the country is not ready to permit any rice imports"
   • (of a thing, circumstance, or condition) provide an opportunity or scope for (something) to take place; make possible.
     "some properties are too small to permit mechanized farming"

https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

And the cynical "diagnosis" and "declaration" about my assumed self-agrandizement is wholly outside the scope of physics, but IS ad hominem.
If you tell me to stay in my lane, you stay in your lane, shall we?

"Permission" is a granted authority.
"Permittive" is a natural condition.
Pasma is a permittive substance. It has "permittivity". Permittivity is a property of Plasma

 

[Baldeee]

Yes, the word "permittivity" is used in science in describing the properties of "plasma".

The word "permittivity" is not an invention of science.

Yes it is.
Very much so.
It was coined by Oliver Heaviside during his work on electromagnetic theory.
He coined quite a few, such as permittance, which we now call capacitance.

It is derived from the word "permit" and if science says that there is no word spelled permittive, it is speaking outside its own area of knowledge.

It's not science that says there's no such word.
If you want to coin the word, that's fine, but it does not yet exist as a recognised word, so you would do well to explain what you mean by such words when you first use them, so that a thread doesn't spend quite so long trying to work out just what it is that you mean.
And before you start trying to quote what "permit" means, and how it gives us the word "permitted", you should probably understand how we generally formed our words from their Latin roots.
Permit comes from Per- meaning "through", and mittere meaning "to send".
The verb in Latin is mito, mittere, misi, missum.
In English we have tended to take the past participle, in this case missum, drop the -um, and then use that as the root of the adjectives and nouns from that verb.
Such as "permission", or "permissive".
"Permittive" is thus not a standard result.
Permittivity, while it alludes to the same root word "permit", is a specifically coined word, with a specific meaning.
"Permittive" was not coined at the same time, and is not (widely? at all?) used.

If you want to coin words that come from this root, or from "permittance", that is your choice, but don't expect others to understand you unless you adequately explain what you mean.

"Permission" is a granted authority.
"Permittive" is a natural condition.
Pasma is a permittive substance. It has "permittivity". Permittivity is a property of Plasma

Permittivity, in the sense you seem to be misusing it, is a property of all matter.
Everything has such "permittivity".
Permittivity is merely the measure of something, not the presence of something.
If the measure is nil then the substance still has a measured permittivity, but of nil.
Maybe what you mean is that plasma has non-zero permittivity?
And maybe what you are trying to mean by "permittive" is "having non-zero permittivity"?

 

[Write4U]

If you want to coin the word, that's fine, but it does not yet exist as a recognised word, so you would do well to explain what you mean by such words when you first use them, so that a thread doesn't spend quite so long trying to work out just what it is that you mean.

I just did and I see nothing wrong with this derivative of an old word. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with understanding the meaning in context of the subject under discussion.

Actually, science hijacked the word and applied it to a very specific "condition" without asking the literary authority, if there is such a thing as electrical permittiveness.

In electromagnetism, the absolute permittivity, often simply called permittivity and denoted by the Greek letter ε ( epsilon ), is a measure of the electric polarizability of a dielectric. Read more......

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Permittivity
Permittivity - Wikipedia

No one has granted science exclusive permission to claim the poorly chosen term "permittive" for a specific purpose to begin with. It actually interferes with the science of linguistics.
If you are confused by this, I can't help you.

 

[exchemist]

OK, let me assure you it was not intended as such.

Exactly.

Yes, the word "permittivity" is used in science in describing the properties of "plasma".

AFAIK, plasma was the earliest state of the universe.

https://earthsky.org/space/1st-microsecond-of-the-big-bang/#

Permittivity - Wikipedia
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Permittivity

More results from wikipedia.org »

And we are talking about the creation of the universe itself, no?

Can we say that plasma offers a permittive environment?

No. It’s meaningless. There is no such adjective as “permittive”, as has already been explained to you.

 

[exchemist]

I just did and I see nothing wrong with this derivative of an old word. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with understanding the meaning in context of the subject under discussion.

Actually, science hijacked the word and applied it to a very specific "condition" without asking the literary authority, if there is such a thing as electrical permittiveness.

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Permittivity
Permittivity - Wikipedia

No one has granted science exclusive permission to claim the poorly chosen term "permittive" for a specific purpose to begin with. It actually interferes with the science of linguistics.
If you are confused by this, I can't help you.

This is madness. It you that made up this word “permittive”, not science. Nor does the term “permittiveness” exist either. You have made that up too.

If you persist in inventing words, you can hardly be surprised if people tell you what you write is nonsense.

And especially in science, terms have highly specific meanings, so care must be taken to use correct terms, with the precise meaning understood by the science community. Inventing your own, and failing even to define them, instantly renders what you write gibberish, from a scientific point of view.

I think you must be senile.

 

[Write4U]

And if you believe that "permittivity pertains only to electrical properties, here are a few more applications of the term.

Permittivity
The permittivity is defined as the average microscopic polarizability in clusters.
From: Nanochemistry (Second Edition), 2013
more ......
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/permittivity#

"Permittivity" seems to be related to "density" and "resistance" to conduction (flow) of energy in general.

2.4.4 Permittivity
The permittivity describes the ability for fluid flow across the plane of the geosynthetic. It is formally defined as the cross-plane permeability divided by the thickness of the geosynthetic. ASTM D4491 describes a constant-head and a falling-head permeability test that is used to define permittivity under zero-normal-stress confinement.

These tests are conducted like similar tests on soils only with the apparatus sized to accommodate the flows associated with geotextiles. Values of cross-plane permeability for geotextiles range from 0.0008 to 0.23 cm/s with a corresponding range of permittivities ranging from 0.02 to 2.1 s– 1.

Non-woven needle-punched geotextiles experience a slight to moderate decrease in permittivity as the normal stress confinement on the material is increased. Geonets have values of permeability of the order of 1–10 cm/s. Geomembranes have a value of 10– 11 cm/s while geosynthetic clay liners have saturated values ranging from 5.0 × 10– 9 to 1.0 × 10– 10 cm/s.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/permittivity#

 

[Write4U]

if you persist in inventing words, you can hardly be surprised if people tell you what you write is nonsense.

As I said, it is science that invented the word "permittivity". Who gave permission for introducing new terms and words into a tightly controlled language such as English?
Who exactly invents (creates) words? Is there a department of words? Where exactly would that be located?

I always look up the etymology of a derivative word to understand the original "meaning" of the basic word. In this case the word is "permit"
(Origin; from Latin permittere, from per- ‘through’ + mittere ‘send, let go’)

Terminology[edit]

The historical term for the relative permittivity is dielectric constant. It is still commonly used, but has been deprecated by standards organizations,[15][16] because of its ambiguity, as some older reports used it for the absolute permittivity ε.[15][18][19] The permittivity may be quoted either as a static property or as a frequency-dependent variant, in which case it is also known as the dielectric function. It has also been used to refer to only the real component ε′r of the complex-valued relative permittivity.[citation needed]

I used the term in context of the role plasma played in the quantum creation of the universe. Note that plasma apparently allowed for FTL expansion of the early universe, until matter formed and "c" became the upper limit constant.

Quantum-mechanical interpretation[edit]

In terms of quantum mechanics, permittivity is explained by atomic and molecular interactions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity

 

[Write4U]

Yes it is. Very much so.
It was coined by Oliver Heaviside during his work on electromagnetic theory.
He coined quite a few, such as permittance, which we now call capacitance.

Sure, we renamed it because....?
And who gave him permission to invent (coin) a new word that really does not even represent the pertinent function?

The term "permit" has nothing to do with electricity per se. It describes a degree of freedom of motion.

 

[Baldeee]

I just did and I see nothing wrong with this derivative of an old word. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with understanding the meaning in context of the subject under discussion.

The "problem" is that it is a word you have made up that had no prior definition.
It was unclear if you meant permissive, or permitted, or some other known and understood word.
That you want it to be taken as the adjective of the noun permittivity was not known, and, frankly, you've made rather a pig's dinner of trying to explain as much.

Actually, science hijacked the word and applied it to a very specific "condition" without asking the literary authority, if there is such a thing as electrical permittiveness.

???
Science didn't hijack anything.
The word permittivity did not exist prior to its creation / coinage by Heaviside.
You can not hijack that which does not yet exist.
There is also no "literary authority", other than the population who use the language.
For a word to be coined it needs to be adopted.
Permittivity is such a word, with the definition given to it at the time.
Your permittive, and permittiveness are not.
At least yet.
That's not to say they won't be, if you keep pushing the word to all and sundry until it gets picked up and used.
But for now, your permittive is everyone else's "having non-zero permittivity" (or some such).

No one has granted science exclusive permission to claim the poorly chosen term "permittive" for a specific purpose to begin with. It actually interferes with the science of linguistics.
If you are confused by this, I can't help you.

It unfortunately seems that you are the one confused.
"Permittive" is not a word claimed by science.
Prior to you using it it was not recognised as a word in use at all, by anyone.
It is only claimed by you for the meaning you have opted to give it.

"Permittivity", however, has been created by science for a particular purpose, as explained.

Does it interfere with the "since of linguistics"?
No.
It is an interesting sideshow that someone took the root word ("to permit") and came up with a new word for his purposes that alludes to the meaning of the root word.
But it does not interfere with linguistics.

Sure, we renamed it because....?

I don't know.
Maybe it was because the word capacitance already existed and served the same purpose as Heaviside's permittance?

And who gave him permission to invent (coin) a new word that really does not even represent the pertinent function?

Anyone can come up with a new word.
But one needs to clearly define it beforehand if it is to be understood by anyone coming across it.
It then needs to be widely adopted.
Good luck with this last part.

As for representing the pertinent measure/property (not function), permittivity can be understood as a measure of the opposition of the material to an electric field, so could be seen as how much the material permits the electric field to behave, that sort of thing.

The term "permit" has nothing to do with electricity per se. It describes a degree of freedom of motion.

So what?
"Capacity" has nothing to do with electricity per se.
"Resist" has nothing to do with electricity per se.
"Impede", similarly, has nothing to do with electricity per se.
Need I go on?
This does lend itself to why Heaviside opted for permittivity rather than the more normal permissivity, and that I do not know.
Maybe permissive had other connotations in use that were less welcome.

 

[exchemist]

As I said, it is science that invented the word "permittivity". Who gave permission for introducing new terms and words into a tightly controlled language such as English?
Who exactly invents (creates) words? Is there a department of words? Where exactly would that be located?

I always look up the etymology of a derivative word to understand the original "meaning" of the basic word. In this case the word is "permit"
(Origin; from Latin permittere, from per- ‘through’ + mittere ‘send, let go’)

Terminology[edit]
I used the term in context of the role plasma played in the quantum creation of the universe. Note that plasma apparently allowed for FTL expansion of the early universe, until matter formed and "c" became the upper limit constant.

Quantum-mechanical interpretation[edit]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity

I am well aware of what permittivity is, thanks, and I am well aware, too, of the QM basis of the polarisability of dielectric materials and the effect that has the permittivity of a dielectric. All this is just the usual cloud of shit you spray around from the internet, whenever someone points out you are talking rubbish.

To repeat: there is no adjective “permittive” in science. This is for the simple reason that everything, even a vacuum, has a non-zero permittivity. So to describe something as “permittive” would be a useless qualification, as it would apply to anything.

Your incorrigible habit of using scientific terms nonsensically is bad enough (function, potential, etc.), but you have now taken a further step towards the funny farm, or nursing home, by actually inventing words, failing to define them - and then inviting us to consider that you are offering a new insight into nature! This is simultaneously delusional and annoying.

 

[Write4U]

Science didn't hijack anything.
The word permittivity did not exist prior to its creation / coinage by Heaviside.

Ok, science invented the word, no? And it is derived from a comm0n word. But
it can be used only in context of a scientific description.

Just like the words derived from "transmit" like "transmissive", "transmittive",
Oddly there is no word like "transmittivity", but there is "transmissivity". Go figure.

But I am still waiting for a response to the content of my post, other than a debate over a word that is perfectly suitable for ordinary use.

 

[Write4U]

So to describe something as “permittive” would be a useless qualification, as it would apply to anything.

It was meant as such!!!!!
What if I had used "permissive"? Would that have made a difference or would you have said that it was out of context?

 

[Baldeee]

Ok, science invented the word, no? And it is derived from a comm0n word. But
it can be used only in context of a scientific description.

It currently only has the meaning for which it was coined, so I'd be hard pressed to think of when one might use it outside of a scientific context.

Just like the words derived from "transmit" like "transmissive", "transmittive",

"Transmittive" is not a word in the dictionary.

Oddly there is no word like "transmittivity", but there is "transmissivity". Go figure.

That's not odd at all, but a result of the way we form our words from the Latin roots, as has been explained to you.
To noone else is it a surprise that "transmittivity" is not a word, as "permittivity" is only a word because someone coined it for a specific use.
Noone has done that with "transmittivity".
I have explained previously how words in English have tended to be formed from their Latin roots, and the past participle of mitto is missum.
This explains why in English we go from words like emit to the adjective emissive and the noun emission, rather than emittive, or emittion.
The double-t spelling is abnormal, and unless a word has been coined that uses the double-t, as in the case of "permittivity", then it is unlikely to be a recognised word.
So it is not odd.
Go figure.

But I am still waiting for a response to the content of my post, other than a debate over a word that is perfectly suitable for ordinary use.

Maybe you want to revisit what you wrote and this time explain it in actual language that people understand, rather than trying to coin new words that, as you can see, simply serves to confuse.

 

[exchemist]

It was meant as such!!!!!
What if I had used "permissive"? Would that have made a difference or would you have said that it was out of context?

It was meant to be a useless qualification? Really? So there was no point in you writing it, then.

If you had said permissive, that would also have been largely meaningless. While “permissive” does have a meaning, it is not a scientific term, but just means tolerant, without restriction, rules or constraint. So a “permissive condition” would just mean a condition without rules or restrictions in some way.

To give that any scientific meaning, one would need to explain, somewhere in the context in which the term was used, what restrictions or constraints are absent. For instance, absence of, say, gravity, or the strong nuclear interaction, perhaps an absence of all the laws of nature, or something.

 

[Write4U]

It currently only has the meaning for which it was coined, so I'd be hard pressed to think of when one might use it outside of a scientific context.

Exactly. A hijack of a common term derivative for a specific scientific condition.

"Transmittive" is not a word in the dictionary.

It is in the German dictionary.

Für die transmittive Optik werden hauptsächlich Zinkselenid-Komponenten eingesetzt.

Translation

Zinc selenide components are primarily used for transmissive optics.

Maybe you want to revisit what you wrote and this time explain it in actual language that people understand, rather than trying to coin new words that, as you can see, simply serves to confuse.

I get it, but IMO the word "permissive" implies a grant rather than a "condition". I don't need to rewrite anything except the word "permittive", if that pleases you.

IOW there is no correct interpretation of the term "permittive condition".
If space-time is (mathematically) "restrictive" then there should be the term (mathematically) "permittive" as the antonym.

 

[exchemist]

Exactly. A hijack of a common term derivative for a specific scientific condition.

How can defining a new term, using a word that did not previously exist, be hijacking?

 

[Write4U]

So a “permissive condition” would just mean a condition without rules or restrictions in some way.

Exactly; before the BB existed a timeless, dimensionless, permittive condition. Hence the ability for expansion @ FTL