lightgigantic:
"So whats the alternative - I mean wouldn't it make sense to put a person who is hell bent on doing the wrong thing in an environment where they suffer greatly for the performance of such deeds (ie th e material world, complete with material heavens and hells), where they can finally work out how to utilise their free will correctly? How else would you establish proper ettiquette in something that has free will? By force?"
The very idea of proper etiquette is a problem that is imaginary. It is like saying: We don't have winter, so let's make a point to have winter jackets anyway, and then I'll go and make winter just because I want to. That is to say, God doesn't have to allow the facillitation of that free-will to begin with, nor does he have to provide that free-will with a material world as it is to demonstrate free will.
"living as primitives? So with our level of advancement, where a women is encouraged to kill her own child in the womb due the economic impossibility of raising it (something a tiger in the jungle doesn't even do) makes us more advanced?"
We have a taste of the savage still within us. But I mostly meant the fruits of civilization. That which makes us better, as opposed to worse than, beasts.
"I could ask more egs to the list but I think you have to qualify the word primitive, more than having a bit of mud on you - even if you want to use that definition NYC wouldn't be advanced because if you spend 4 hours in the outside traffic you will get covered in exhaust fume grime"
When a man does not have a home, does not wash, chooses to live in filth, never combs his hair, never grooms his beard, has no children, has no job, has no woman, has no studies, has no money...what is this but an animal?
"either that or our mundane concepts of majesty and opulence are meagre"
In what way would they be meagre?
"what would he gain by not reciprocating?"
Nothing. Neither would he gain from reciprocation.
"I think you missed the point that if all opulences are granted by god, some are considered inferior and some are considered superior - like for instance even if you win the lotto, life will still be a struggle - in fact life will probably be more of a struggle - did you know that when a person wins the lotto in the states they have to sign a contract that prevents them from suing the lotto company for damages due to winning?"
Yes, I've heard of that. Owing to people stealing from them and the like, or otherwise attempting to ruin their lives. But then again, they have tons of money. It would be difficult for them to say their life is worse off. They can litterally move, buy an island, and live as kings for the rest of their lives.
"Where is it advocated that one should adopt the monastic path? There are heaps of instructions that one should adopt the correct path to ones material nature (ie that one should surrender to god despite whatever station of life one is in)"
Clearly some paths are more devoted, would you not say?
"In other words he would relegate the duty to some inferior personality in that department - Just because god controls everything doesn't mean he is required to make a personal appearance for every incident."
Considering his power is litterally everywhere, it would probably be -easier- for him just to blink - ala "Bewitched" - and have the thing manifest.
"For what ends? To thrill the less intelligent? It certainly wouldn't make people more attracted to the idea of serving god bereft of personal material desire and ambition - on the contrary the chanels for spiritual life with get clogged up with even a higher percentage of miscreants"
Well what is there -but- benefit that can drive someone to spiritual things? Yes, it may not be material, but one is thought to be in a -better- station and in more pleasurable circumstances once one is a servant of God, no?
"Actually god was related to you eating your meal - it just takes dystentry or a famine for you to miss out - in other words even your eating is dependant on causes outside your ability to control."
It may be out of my control, but God cannot said to have controlled it, either. Who knows what he did? In the absence of his presence, I cannot say he did or did not, but I certainly know there is no evidence that he did.
"Yes there are incidents - there are also many numerous more incidents of people relying on mystic yoga (which is not intrinsically theistic) or even sleight of hand (which is even less theistic) to fool people, so such "miracles" are only for inspiring the less intelligent - like for instance from jesus's plethora of miracles we can understand that he was preaching to people who were thick"
Magicians are one step away from a prophet, yes. But so you attest that there are people, whom you've met, that have gotten material things, they could present, that they claim to have gotten from God? Directly from God? IN a manner similar, if not the same, as the dog-doo to British high-performance automobiles example?
"Actually he reveals to us how to enjoy - the problem is that we think we are already qualified in this department and just require some more money, beauty, prestige etc to complete the equation of happiness, which is actually the essence of our predicament in illusion"
So God not only wants us to be joyful, he teaches us to be joyful? And in what way is that? And how is it better?
"Yes, although if a person who has amassed spiritual credits does not lose them at death - for instance if I am a successful artist (material qualification) I lose that when I die, but if I am 1% spiritual, next life I start at 2% - so when a spiritualist tends not to suffer like an ordinary gross materialist - at the very least they are commonly awarded at least the human form of life next"
So you get "good points" even if you don't persist?
Wouldn't then the most rational thing be to get, say, 95 percent of what is necessary, then quit and get to enjoy a life with only 5 percent of normal suffering ad eterniam? You could basically do what one wants, no?
"Obviously you are not familiar with metal smelting - it was more than hot lead - it was an alloy that, if to be made today, can only be done in huge industrial plants - none of which exist in any archeological finds - at the least it tends to suggest that the people were not running around with spears chasing rabbits all day"
Do you have the specific findings off hand? I'd like to investigate the metal, the evidence for its existnece, and various other htings.
"So in other words according to the current theories the current theories are correct? "
According to the data present to us at this moment - I.E. the real world of sense and sensation - it is correct. Of course, we could be off, but a revolution of what the senses are telling us it not only unlikely, it is unreasonable to suspect.
Most importantly, this is a billion times more proof than the opposite. That "God mucked around with things".
"Much of the world doesn't mean all of the world - even in winter you can find things to eat - if you know how"
Yet it is possible that all which is left is but poison.
"rock n roll wrestlers and the like aren't futile?"
They make a living, have good lives, are famous...
Hulk Hogan has had stardom for 30 years. He has a great family and his daughter is about to be a popstar. Sounds good to me!
"There is a common saying, the more something is polished on the outside the more it indicates the inside is hollow - while I understand what you are saying, and its not true to say that filth indicates purity, there is a whole concept of cleanliness that is totally absent in the west - even in terms of just passing stool - the western invention of a smearing technique is repilsive, and in fact a grand laugh, to a person who understands thenecessity of taking bath after evacuating.
I imagine there are similar fallacies with your concept of worth"
Indeed, one would probably be better off using a bidet or washing completely after going to the bathroom, but at the very least, one is generally more clean wiping then not. That is to say, whereas I am not suggesting the WEst is emmaculately clean in every single way they live - no one is, really - there is surely something to be said about "saints don't wash" indicating a general lack of worth amongst them.
I mean truly: Who would want to live in -filth-?
"whats the worth of being any more part of it than absolutely required
Such a liberated person is not attracted to material sense pleasure but is always in trance, enjoying the pleasure within. In this way the self-realized person enjoys unlimited happiness, for he concentrates on the Supreme."
And if met with nothing but annihilation after death, would not this be but a waste? A precious opportunity squandered! And even if not, what joy can truly be taken by the spirit? A joy which may be eternal yet not be a joy at all, is not at all worth a thing.
"So whats the alternative - I mean wouldn't it make sense to put a person who is hell bent on doing the wrong thing in an environment where they suffer greatly for the performance of such deeds (ie th e material world, complete with material heavens and hells), where they can finally work out how to utilise their free will correctly? How else would you establish proper ettiquette in something that has free will? By force?"
The very idea of proper etiquette is a problem that is imaginary. It is like saying: We don't have winter, so let's make a point to have winter jackets anyway, and then I'll go and make winter just because I want to. That is to say, God doesn't have to allow the facillitation of that free-will to begin with, nor does he have to provide that free-will with a material world as it is to demonstrate free will.
"living as primitives? So with our level of advancement, where a women is encouraged to kill her own child in the womb due the economic impossibility of raising it (something a tiger in the jungle doesn't even do) makes us more advanced?"
We have a taste of the savage still within us. But I mostly meant the fruits of civilization. That which makes us better, as opposed to worse than, beasts.
"I could ask more egs to the list but I think you have to qualify the word primitive, more than having a bit of mud on you - even if you want to use that definition NYC wouldn't be advanced because if you spend 4 hours in the outside traffic you will get covered in exhaust fume grime"
When a man does not have a home, does not wash, chooses to live in filth, never combs his hair, never grooms his beard, has no children, has no job, has no woman, has no studies, has no money...what is this but an animal?
"either that or our mundane concepts of majesty and opulence are meagre"
In what way would they be meagre?
"what would he gain by not reciprocating?"
Nothing. Neither would he gain from reciprocation.
"I think you missed the point that if all opulences are granted by god, some are considered inferior and some are considered superior - like for instance even if you win the lotto, life will still be a struggle - in fact life will probably be more of a struggle - did you know that when a person wins the lotto in the states they have to sign a contract that prevents them from suing the lotto company for damages due to winning?"
Yes, I've heard of that. Owing to people stealing from them and the like, or otherwise attempting to ruin their lives. But then again, they have tons of money. It would be difficult for them to say their life is worse off. They can litterally move, buy an island, and live as kings for the rest of their lives.
"Where is it advocated that one should adopt the monastic path? There are heaps of instructions that one should adopt the correct path to ones material nature (ie that one should surrender to god despite whatever station of life one is in)"
Clearly some paths are more devoted, would you not say?
"In other words he would relegate the duty to some inferior personality in that department - Just because god controls everything doesn't mean he is required to make a personal appearance for every incident."
Considering his power is litterally everywhere, it would probably be -easier- for him just to blink - ala "Bewitched" - and have the thing manifest.
"For what ends? To thrill the less intelligent? It certainly wouldn't make people more attracted to the idea of serving god bereft of personal material desire and ambition - on the contrary the chanels for spiritual life with get clogged up with even a higher percentage of miscreants"
Well what is there -but- benefit that can drive someone to spiritual things? Yes, it may not be material, but one is thought to be in a -better- station and in more pleasurable circumstances once one is a servant of God, no?
"Actually god was related to you eating your meal - it just takes dystentry or a famine for you to miss out - in other words even your eating is dependant on causes outside your ability to control."
It may be out of my control, but God cannot said to have controlled it, either. Who knows what he did? In the absence of his presence, I cannot say he did or did not, but I certainly know there is no evidence that he did.
"Yes there are incidents - there are also many numerous more incidents of people relying on mystic yoga (which is not intrinsically theistic) or even sleight of hand (which is even less theistic) to fool people, so such "miracles" are only for inspiring the less intelligent - like for instance from jesus's plethora of miracles we can understand that he was preaching to people who were thick"
Magicians are one step away from a prophet, yes. But so you attest that there are people, whom you've met, that have gotten material things, they could present, that they claim to have gotten from God? Directly from God? IN a manner similar, if not the same, as the dog-doo to British high-performance automobiles example?
"Actually he reveals to us how to enjoy - the problem is that we think we are already qualified in this department and just require some more money, beauty, prestige etc to complete the equation of happiness, which is actually the essence of our predicament in illusion"
So God not only wants us to be joyful, he teaches us to be joyful? And in what way is that? And how is it better?
"Yes, although if a person who has amassed spiritual credits does not lose them at death - for instance if I am a successful artist (material qualification) I lose that when I die, but if I am 1% spiritual, next life I start at 2% - so when a spiritualist tends not to suffer like an ordinary gross materialist - at the very least they are commonly awarded at least the human form of life next"
So you get "good points" even if you don't persist?
Wouldn't then the most rational thing be to get, say, 95 percent of what is necessary, then quit and get to enjoy a life with only 5 percent of normal suffering ad eterniam? You could basically do what one wants, no?
"Obviously you are not familiar with metal smelting - it was more than hot lead - it was an alloy that, if to be made today, can only be done in huge industrial plants - none of which exist in any archeological finds - at the least it tends to suggest that the people were not running around with spears chasing rabbits all day"
Do you have the specific findings off hand? I'd like to investigate the metal, the evidence for its existnece, and various other htings.
"So in other words according to the current theories the current theories are correct? "
According to the data present to us at this moment - I.E. the real world of sense and sensation - it is correct. Of course, we could be off, but a revolution of what the senses are telling us it not only unlikely, it is unreasonable to suspect.
Most importantly, this is a billion times more proof than the opposite. That "God mucked around with things".
"Much of the world doesn't mean all of the world - even in winter you can find things to eat - if you know how"
Yet it is possible that all which is left is but poison.
"rock n roll wrestlers and the like aren't futile?"
They make a living, have good lives, are famous...
Hulk Hogan has had stardom for 30 years. He has a great family and his daughter is about to be a popstar. Sounds good to me!
"There is a common saying, the more something is polished on the outside the more it indicates the inside is hollow - while I understand what you are saying, and its not true to say that filth indicates purity, there is a whole concept of cleanliness that is totally absent in the west - even in terms of just passing stool - the western invention of a smearing technique is repilsive, and in fact a grand laugh, to a person who understands thenecessity of taking bath after evacuating.
I imagine there are similar fallacies with your concept of worth"
Indeed, one would probably be better off using a bidet or washing completely after going to the bathroom, but at the very least, one is generally more clean wiping then not. That is to say, whereas I am not suggesting the WEst is emmaculately clean in every single way they live - no one is, really - there is surely something to be said about "saints don't wash" indicating a general lack of worth amongst them.
I mean truly: Who would want to live in -filth-?
"whats the worth of being any more part of it than absolutely required
Such a liberated person is not attracted to material sense pleasure but is always in trance, enjoying the pleasure within. In this way the self-realized person enjoys unlimited happiness, for he concentrates on the Supreme."
And if met with nothing but annihilation after death, would not this be but a waste? A precious opportunity squandered! And even if not, what joy can truly be taken by the spirit? A joy which may be eternal yet not be a joy at all, is not at all worth a thing.
