Q: Why does Islam call Jews & Christians non-believers [Infidels]?

[pjdude1219]

Your a coward pointing me to a dictionary.

actually I posted it because to answer your quesry all you need is the definition of the word Infidel

It means you have no answer and the Islamic doctrines are based on racism and hatred.

Yeah ytour going to need to explain that logic because it doesn't quite work

Otherwise you would clearly and specifically respond to such an important issue which is vested in your scriptures.

I'm not a muslim. just because I'm not a muslim doesn't mean I have to follow you in blind bigotry against the faith

After all it is the question of the thread.

and one you don't seem to grasp.

 

[IamJoseph]

Because dictionaries are bad?...

Why is anyone a coward for daring to point you to a dictionary so that you can actually look up the real meaning of words instead of what you've pulled out of your twisted little beliefs?



So because he points you to a dictionary that gives you the exact definition, you consider that to be a bad thing?

I know its a NOUN, but it did not say why Jews and Christians are unbeleivers.

Tell me something IamJoseph, what is your answer to the term Gentile or Goy when used in the context such as with "The King's Torah", by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira?

Nothing wrong with that word, it means nothing more than one who is non-Jewish. It does not fulfill away the law of equal rights to both. Its VERY different from infidel, which is a blessing to kill. Your questions parallel your nonsense. People are being killed - some 1000 per week. If it wasn'y funny it would be serious.

 

[IamJoseph]

actually I posted it because to answer your quesry all you need is the definition of the word Infidel Yeah ytour going to need to explain that logic because it doesn't quite work I'm not a muslim. just because I'm not a muslim doesn't mean I have to follow you in blind bigotry against the faith and one you don't seem to grasp.

There has to be specific and logical reasons why someone who is not a muslims can be called an unbeliever. If there are not legitimate reasons than it is just plain garden variety Nazism. Not to be able to even answer this question honestly in a debating forum is rediculous, cowardly and indicates a disturbing guilt factor.

In this sense your attitude is the same as a Muslim on auto-mode against anything said - you are attacking me instead of making any coherent response. Without loosing modesty, I believe I have exposed something significant amidst all the run away deflections.

 

[AlexG]

Since I'm jewish and married a non-jew, both my children went through conversion, one with a conservative rabbi and one with an orthodox rabbi. So I know something about it and don't have to rely on wikipedia, or whatever the source de jour is today.

 

[Zephyr]

This issue has always seemed ridiculous. The Jews have been monotheist the longest time and encountered existential battles to defend it, while Muslims have only recently assumed monotheism. I wonder what criteria applies for this false charge - it surely cannot be based on revelation derived by a person or name. Any clues?

They don't. Jews and Christians are People of the Book. A Muslim who calls a Jew or Christian a Kafir (unbeliever) is ignorant.

Incorrect. A person can convert to Judaism.

Not in any sect recognized by the Israeli government. Sure there are more liberal sects, especially in the west, where you're free to do that, but it would be like converting to Mormonism and then expecting the Catholic Church to accept you as a full-blooded Christian.

CptBork is mistaken on both counts. You can convert to any denomination of Judaism including orthodox, and while there has been debate on the subject, the Israeli government currently recognizes reform conversions as equally valid to orthodox conversions with respect to immigration.

I know it's fun to argue with idiots like IamJoseph, but you shouldn't go around saying that people can't convert to orthodox Judaism when a ten second Google search would have shown you otherwise.

 

[Bells]

I know its a NOUN, but it did not say why Jews and Christians are unbeleivers.

You mean it did not fit into the little box you have in your head about your version of what infidel means?

Nothing wrong with that word, it means nothing more than one who is non-Jewish.

It is deemed quite offensive and is generally avoided by most Jews.

It does not fulfill away the law of equal rights to both.

So Christians have equal rights in Israel? Are you sure about that?

Its VERY different from infidel, which is a blessing to kill.

And the King's Torah is what exactly when it comes to gentiles or goys?

Your questions parallel your nonsense. People are being killed - some 1000 per week.

You mean Muslims and non-Muslims in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and areas of Africa, combined with the Palestinians, for example? Those people? Or did you mean other people?

If it wasn'y funny it would be serious.

You find the deaths of people to be funny?

Or do you just find the deaths of non-Jews, especially Muslims, to be funny?

Since I'm jewish and married a non-jew, both my children went through conversion, one with a conservative rabbi and one with an orthodox rabbi. So I know something about it and don't have to rely on wikipedia, or whatever the source de jour is today.

Hopefully, for your children's sake, they will not have to move to Israel to marry.

 

[Bells]

They don't. Jews and Christians are People of the Book. A Muslim who calls a Jew or Christian a Kafir (unbeliever) is ignorant.

Ermm.. I always thought Kafir was a term to describe an African, especially by white South Africans?

 

[Zephyr]

Ermm.. I always thought Kafir was a term to describe an African, especially by white South Africans?

You are thinking of kaffir (two fs). The words have different meanings despite their common etymological origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

And the King's Torah is what exactly when it comes to gentiles or goys?

The work of a nutter, comparable to Muslim cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi who supports suicide attacks on pregnant Israeli women because their unborn babies might grow up to join the Israeli army.

 

[IamJoseph]

Since I'm jewish and married a non-jew, both my children went through conversion, one with a conservative rabbi and one with an orthodox rabbi. So I know something about it and don't have to rely on wikipedia, or whatever the source de jour is today.

It is more than insulting and totally insane for a new kid on the block who cannot make humous anymore to call Jews as infidels or make any form of insulting accusation of the Hebrew bible. It is also a crime that Muslims dump mosques on other peoples' sacred sites and have the gall to deny it and also barr non-muslims any reciprocity of building chiurches and temples in non-sacred robbed Islamic regime states. This alone should put PAID to any notion of others insulting Islam. VOT A NOIRVE! :bugeye:

The Wilders Trial and freedom of speech

by Isi Leibler
October 11, 2010

The bizarre trial of Dutch political leader Geert Wilders, for having allegedly insulted Islam and incited hatred against Muslims, may have major long term repercussions on Europe.

Voted politician of the year in Holland in 2007, the highly charismatic Wilders has had a meteoric public career. The Freedom Party which he leads gained 24 seats in the recent elections, making it the third largest parliamentary party. With the new government now dependent on its votes to retain office, he has considerable influence in the formulation of policy.

Wilders represents the antithesis of political correctness. He courageously condemns the prevailing craven appeasement of Europeans to the intransigence and threats of violence emanating from Islamic fundamentalists. He considers the widespread migration of Muslims to European countries as an Islamic fundamentalist Trojan horse, and predicts that if the jihadists are not resisted, "Eurabia will be just a matter of time."

Last week in a speech in Berlin, Wilders stated:

"They [the left] want us to feel so ashamed about our own identity that we refuse to fight for it... The same leftists who turned a blind eye to communism then, turn a blind eye to Islam today... we even hear a repetition of the old moral equivalence mantra. They used to say that Western "imperialism" was as bad as Soviet imperialism. They are now saying that Western "imperialism" is as bad as Islamic imperialism... Are we about to repeat the fatal mistake of the Weimar Republic? Are we succumbing to Islam because our commitment to freedom is already dead? No it will not happen."

Although accused of being a fascist, Wilders adamantly opposed and explicitly condemned right-wing extremists like Le Pen and Heider. "We will never join up with fascists." he repeatedly says.

He is also a passionate admirer and supporter of Israel, where he lived for two years and which he has visited over 40 times, frequently describing the Jewish state as "the West's first line of defense."

The threats and rewards offered by Islamic extremists for his murder are taken seriously, especially after the murder of media personality Theo Van Gogh by a Dutch Moroccan Islamic fanatic. Wilders has been under 24-hour police protection during the past six years.

The trial he faces will be a watershed for European democracy. He is being accused of inciting hatred because of the documentary film (Fitna) he produced which graphically links Islam to the violence prevailing in many Muslim societies. It highlights practices such as the stoning of adulterous women, beheadings, execution of apostates, honor killings, hanging of homosexuals, amputation of limbs for petty crimes, forced child marriages, female circumcision and other odious practices which to this day are prevalent in many Islamic countries.

Wilders went overboard by calling for the banning of the Koran, which he compares to Mein Kampf, citing numerous passages from texts which call for violence and the murder of infidels. Yet, if one examines the sacred texts of other major religions, one will also find violent passages. It all comes down to a question of interpretation, and the problem we face today is that it is Islamic extremists who set the tone for many Muslims. Thus, calling for banning the Koran, the holy book for one and a half billion of Muslims throughout the world, is counter-productive. And aside from being anti-democratic, it further undermines the already pitifully weak position of moderate Muslims.

However, it is surely Wilders' democratic right to express such views without facing criminal prosecution. Particularly so, when he condemns Islam as an extremist ideology but urges his followers to eschew violence against individual Muslims.

More importantly, his demand that Muslims in our society be integrated and that those imams and their followers who incite to violence be vigorously prosecuted and deported is a crucial prerequisite to any form of accommodation with Islamic migrants.

When his trial resumed last week, Wilders was entirely justified in saying "I am on trial, but on trial with me is the freedom of expression of many Dutch citizens."

In truth, this trial exemplifies cowardly European appeasement and capitulation to Muslims threats of violence and intimidation against any critics.

It should perhaps encourage us to focus on the prevailing death threats and constant intimidation and violence perpetrated by extremist Muslims groups against all critics of Islam. For example Salmon Rushdie in 1989, or the Danish cartoons of the prophet Mohammed, and climaxing with the recent shocking case of American Molly Norris who was forced to go into hiding and adopt a new identity to protect herself against death threats from a fatwa issued after she had drawn a cartoon in a regional newspaper deemed disrespectful of Islam.

The Wilders trial should also be viewed in the context of the campaign by the 57 member Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) to criminalize all criticism of Islam. It blends with President Obama's undertaking to actively combat "negative stereotyping of Islam" and the subsequent US co-sponsorship of a UN resolution originating from the discredited UN Human Rights Council calling on all states to criminalize "negative stereotyping of religions and racial groups." All parties realize that in practice, this will be primarily directed towards muzzling critics of Islamic practices and behavior.

Many of the constituents of the OIC brazenly deny freedom of expression and worship to Christians and Jews and sustain a culture in which the media and religious environment is saturated with hatred of other religions. For such a group to demand criminalization of all forms of criticism of Islam is surely the height of hypocrisy. The continuous claims by Muslims that they are subject to Islamophobia should also be viewed in the context of the truly Nazi like stereotyping of Jews in many Islamic communities.

The Wilders trial is clearly an attempt by the Dutch establishment to muzzle criticism and exposure of extremist Muslims excesses. It was imposed on a reluctant public prosecutor by the former Minister of Justice for clearly political purposes and should now be adjourned or canceled.

But if it proceeds, the outcome of this trial has implications for us all. If a leading Dutch politician can be criminalized for criticizing Islam in a society in which calls for "death to the Jews" are regular occurrences and rarely prosecuted, it will be a message to the West that freedom of expression must be curtailed when it applies to Muslims. It will also set a precedent for exploiting the judiciary to impose political views that could ultimately lead to Stalinist type show trials becoming the order of the day.

It will mean that offensive language can be directed towards everyone except Muslims and this will be used as a vehicle to curtail freedom of expression and ultimately destroy our democratic values. It will also provide jihadists throughout the world with cause for celebrating the erosion of the will of democracies to stand up and resist intimidation and embolden them to intensify their violence.
http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/Leibler/entry/the_wilders_trial_and_freedom

 

[ejderha]

I don't have a faith or belief, but in my country this is the general mode of secular religious Muslims.

The most fundamental sins against the Creator are:
-To claim/accept anything else as omnnipotent as the Creator itself and worship to that.
-Or to claim/accept oneself or as a race, or as a nation special in order to recieve the creator's knowledge and right to worship to him.

The creator sent Moses first, but Jews went in the wrong and pervert ways of claiming that they are the only ones worth to worship to God or that one must be related to them.

So the Creator sent the Messiah Jesus, whose birth is accepted as a miracle also by muslims, to correct the world and tell of Himself again, but this time Christians went the wrong and the pervert way and put the man in the God's place and worshiped a human.

So the Creator sent Muhammed as the last prophet. There won't be another one and while you got the updated news letter, if you are not taking any actions, you are responsible for being an 'infidel'. And you are going to be judged according to the latest religion sent to the world by the Creator. Moses and Jesus are sacred for muslims, because not the prophet nor the messiah failed, it's people that failed.

Also it's said that the reason the first and the last religion resembles much in rules and in being strict, because that's what the Creator intended after what people did to the Messiah. It's true that Muslims believe Jesus died on the cross, but they also believe he hasn't suffer physically as God prevented it before taking him.

That's the general outlook.

 

[IamJoseph]

I don't have a faith or belief, but in my country this is the general mode of secular religious Muslims.

The most fundamental sins against the Creator are:
-To claim/accept anything else as omnnipotent as the Creator itself and worship to that.
-Or to claim/accept oneself or as a race, or as a nation special in order to recieve the creator's knowledge and right to worship to him.

This is not from Islam but Judaism. A lie by omission is - a lie.

The creator sent Moses first,

No. Abraham came first and introduced monotheism; his children upheld that belief; Sarah and Rebecca saw further than their husbands and turned the tide of history ['Whatever Sarah tells you to do - do it'/Genesis]. Then came Joseph [the only prophet able to make prophesies with a nominated date and time], and one who saved Israel and also Egypt for a prophetic purpose. None of the three religions would have survived without those revered figures.

but Jews went in the wrong and pervert ways of claiming that they are the only ones worth to worship to God or that one must be related to them.

Absolute gibberish! The law they were given gave equal rights to all humans, strangers and inhabitants; ensuring that only the soul that sins it shall pay. Islam corrupted the Hebrew bible with its infidel nonesense, claiming the Hebrew is distored, while Christiaity did not alter any part of it. There was no Islam, Arabs or any Arabic writings at this time.

So the Creator sent Muhammed as the last prophet. There won't be another one and while you got the updated news letter, if you are not taking any actions, you are responsible for being an 'infidel'. And you are going to be judged according to the latest religion sent to the world by the Creator. Moses and Jesus are sacred for muslims, because not the prophet nor the messiah failed, it's people that failed.

You cannot say last. Better, most recent. In time there will be many new religions or Islam may be obsolete. I know of no new revelation by Mohammed - can you tell us what this is?

Also it's said that the reason the first and the last religion resembles much in rules and in being strict, because that's what the Creator intended after what people did to the Messiah. It's true that Muslims believe Jesus died on the cross, but they also believe he hasn't suffer physically as God prevented it before taking him.

That's the general outlook.

For the Jews, the Messiah of the times was Moses. Jews revere Moses and 55 prophets continuously and fastediously. Moses remains the most revered human, by period of time, impact and by cencus. More humans revere Moses than Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed. Its not valid to say unless one accepts Mohammed they are non-believers; only the laws, not any names, decide who is an unbeliever.

Islamists insult everyone than commits murder when anything negative is said about them. This says Islam will fall, and as Muslims have desecrated other peoples sacred sites with mosques - this will happen to them. No one is above the law - and the law comes from the Hebrew bible - exclusively.

 

[ejderha]

IamJoseph,

Personally, I can't care less what you, Jews, Christians, Buddhists or Muslims, Pagans... anyone in claim of something holy, do believe in, or think is right or wrong. It's a major waste of time and life to me; it's religion.

What I wrote is a general reflection of a well known traditional look in a specific culture. I claim to have a little insight to it as I was born, raised and living in a somewhat secular Muslim country.

And this "infidel" issue is the fuel of extremists. It's not an issue or even a problem in daily life in multi religious/cultural societies. Muslims are busy living their lives as Jews and Christians do. And life is not easy for any of them.

If you could ever manage to rise above the extremist propaganda and international politics inflicted, it would be easy for you to understand that the world and its inhabitants are much more complicated than what's written in a book or who started what.

 

[Big Chiller]

Because Jews believe that those who are not Jews cannot enter Heaven.

Because Christians believe that those who are not Christian cannot enter heaven.

Because Islamists/Muslims believer that those who are not Islamist/Muslim cannot enter heaven.

I really don't see the mystery here.

Muslims do not believe anyone who isn't Muslim can't enter heaven in fact Muslims aren't allowed to be certain about who is going to receive reward or punishment, thats for God alone to know.

 

[ejderha]

Muslims do not believe anyone who isn't Muslim can't enter heaven in fact Muslims aren't allowed to be certain about who is going to receive reward or punishment, thats for God alone to decide.

Yes. It's interesting you know that. I didn't even try to put that in my post.

 

[786]

OK, now please tell what is the stuff Jews don't believe that is possessed with Islam?

1. Muhammad being the prophet

As for laws that are post-Jewish..

1. Ban on alcohol
2. Limitation to 4 wives
3. Acceptance of Jesus is mandatory
4. Women have the right to inheritance (doesn't get transfered to husband)
5. The proportions of how inheritance is distributed is different

You said you don't believe there is such a thing as Islamic Law- I know what you're talking about- that is why I've just given you a few which are in the QURAN and should not be disputable 'laws' of Islam- as Quran is the holy scripture of Muslims.

@ Michael- the question was why Islam calls Jews- non-believers. Not Mormonism.. but its true Mormon's would call Muslims non-believers based on similar grounds.. but so what? I do disbelieve in Mormonism- so I have no problem being labeled a disbeliever by them... the Jews shouldn't either.

Peace be unto you

 

[Big Chiller]

I would like to add that in the Jewish book Torah God is seen as anthropomorphic.

 

[jayleew]

What good is religion doing? What bad things is religion causing? What good is god doing? What bad things is god causing?

All this god and religion is worthless rhetoric. I will feed the hungry, comfort the sick, love my neighbor, end all wars, give homes to the homeless, protect the innocent, etc. Hire me for the job, god's on strike. I'll get it done, but it won't be easy and we'll have to work together.

It reminds me of when the public sanitation departments go on strike. The town starts stinking up something fierce. Um...hello, god it's really getting stinky down here...hello...you said you are coming, so i'm waiting on my ass...hello?

If all the religious people instead focused their energies as one united people, instead of being windbags crying about who is right, what a world this would be...one that a god would be proud of, i'm sure of it.

 

[Zees]

Because Jews believe that those who are not Jews cannot enter Heaven.

Because Christians believe that those who are not Christian cannot enter heaven.

Because Islamists/Muslims believer that those who are not Islamist/Muslim cannot enter heaven.

I really don't see the mystery here.

Let the religion speak for itself. Christians and Jews are considered as the people of the book (deviant in following the message of God but believers nonetheless).

“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians [wa’l-saabi’een ], whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”

[ Quran; al-Baqarah 2:62]

 

[Sock puppet path]

More from the quran on jews and christians

2:120: “Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, Islâmic Guidance is the only Guidance. And if you were to follow their desires after what you have received of Knowledge, then you would have against Allâh neither any protector nor helper.”

3:56: “As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."

3:85: “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.”

3:118: “O you who believe! Take not as your helpers or friends those outside your religion since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the verses if you understand.”

3:178: “And let not the disbelievers think that Our postponing of their punishment is good for them. We postpone the punishment only so that they may increase in sinfulness. And for them is a disgracing torment.”

5:14: “And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection, and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do.”

5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the wrong*doers.”

5:73: “Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no god but Allâh. And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.”

8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh Alone...”

9:23: “O you who believe! Take not for supporters your fathers and your brothers if they prefer disbelief to Belief. And whoever of you does so, then he is one of the wrong-doers.”

9:29: “Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not Islam as the religion of truth among the people of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

9:34: “O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the Jewish rabbis and the Christian monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder men from the Way of Allâh. And those who hoard up gold and silver, and spend it not in the Way of Allâh -- announce unto them a painful torment.”

9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

Muhammed was a very confused guy:shrug:

 

[Michael]

@ Michael- the question was why Islam calls Jews- non-believers. Not Mormonism.. but its true Mormon's would call Muslims non-believers based on similar grounds.. but so what? I do disbelieve in Mormonism- so I have no problem being labeled a disbeliever by them... the Jews shouldn't either.

That's because you don't share a violent history with Mormons. If you had, then being labeled a disbeliever (and taxed for your disbelief) would indeed bother you.

Think of it this way. Does it bother you when White people in Australia refer to the Original Australians disparaging as Abo's? Maybe it bothers you, maybe it doesn't? I mean, you're not an Aboriginal.
How about if White American solders in Iraq refer to Arabs as sand-niggers? Would that bother you? Should it? Are you an Iraqi? Are you an American solder?


See, the way I see it, words like Abo, sand-nigger, and infidel are hurtful unnecessary bigotry. The only thing we can really do to change that is through education of the next generation. You're not going to make much headway against someone raised to be a bigot.