Purpose????

[Jenyar]

"Purpose" is, ironically enough, just being who we really are.

Let me explain: you build a toaster. You call it "toaster" with the idea that when you put a slice of bread into the mechanism, it will produce toast.

But instead it produces coal. Not because it can't produce toast, or because producing toast is so much more difficult or further up the evolutionary ladder for toasters, but because it simply takes the process too far. You've built it with all the faculties necessary to sense when to stop, but it doesn't - it thinks "faster, harder, further" is its purpose; so you end up with coal and it ends up with fried circuits.

It's purpose is to function optimally - to produce the best toast you could wish for. The toaster might strive to understand the properties of different kinds of bread, the thermodynamic laws which govern its existence, and reach perfection in all other areas of its existence. But as far as you are concerned, it has failed its purpose. Not because you want to limit it, or deny its freedom, or you have something against bread in particular... just because its purpose includes all those things as long as they come down to producing toast.

 

[e-bow]

"Purpose" is, ironically enough, just being who we really are.

Let me explain: you build a toaster. You call it "toaster" with the idea that when you put a slice of bread into the mechanism, it will produce toast.[/i].

...So one day god was looking at all of the hand-rolled lines of play-do and thought, "Hey, this thing could wiggle all over the earth on its tummy, tempt Eve, shed its skin periodically and get trampled under some other woman's foot. Yeah! That's its purpose!"

And then this afternoon, at an evolution vs. creation debate:

"...No wait! Toasters could not have evolved by adding piece to piece over time....they're IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX!!!!"

And now for something completely different!

*poof*

 

[Raithere]

Let me explain: you build a toaster. You call it "toaster" with the idea that when you put a slice of bread into the mechanism, it will produce toast.

A toaster has no purpose of its own, just ask one. A toaster is merely a tool that is used for the purposes of its creator. It does nothing of its own volition, of its own purpose.

But then let's say we build a super-robotic toaster with legs and arms and a computer 'brain' and we program it to run around looking for pieces of bread and making toast out of them. Still the super-toaster has no purpose of its own; it has no volition, no self-control. It's still nothing but a tool (albeit an automated tool) serving the purpose of its creator.

Finally, we build an intelligent toaster that is capable of making its own choices and we let it go free. We tell it that its purpose is to make toast but strangely this intelligent toaster chooses to move to L.A. and write sitcoms. What is its purpose and should we smash the hell out of it with a baseball bat for not making toast?

~Raithere

 

[mario]

The purpose of a toaster is to burn bread no matter where you set the darkness control. End of story.

Unless it is possessed. Does anybody know of any good excorsists that do toasters?

 

[Jenyar]

A toaster has no purpose of its own, just ask one. A toaster is merely a tool that is used for the purposes of its creator. It does nothing of its own volition, of its own purpose.

It has the purpose you give it. It embodies that purpose, is able to fulfil it, and able to fail it. The purpose of "toasting" does not lie with General Electric, but with their toasters...

But you can take the analogy too far by equating it with humanity without taking its nature (our volition, as you call it) into account. We have the purpose to love - God, and each other - as well as being a "tool" in God's hands to administer love. We can argue ad infinitum about the specific nature, ingredients and functions of love, but free will is definitely part and parcel to it. If you can't love, God can't use you. But you can love and still come to nothing if you dismiss your creator who didnt't just create a "mindless loving machine", but a rational thinking human being.

Our "purpose" is being true to ourselves, but not outside the boundaries of love.

 

[Raithere]

It has the purpose you give it. It embodies that purpose, is able to fulfil it, and able to fail it. The purpose of "toasting" does not lie with General Electric, but with their toasters...

That it was built for a purpose does not mean that is has a purpose of its own. Do you see the difference? This was the point of my intelligent toaster analogy; though we might create something for a purpose, having free-will allows it to select its own purpose.

But you can take the analogy too far by equating it with humanity without taking its nature (our volition, as you call it) into account.

That is precisely what I'm doing.

We have the purpose to love - God, and each other - as well as being a "tool" in God's hands to administer love.

No, that would be God's purpose for us... but it is quite obvious that not everyone in the world conforms to God's supposed purpose.

But you can love and still come to nothing if you dismiss your creator who didnt't just create a "mindless loving machine", but a rational thinking human being.

What do you mean by 'come to nothing'?

~Raithere

 

[Jenyar]

What do you mean by 'come to nothing'?

Not reaching the potential that comes with God's purpose, which is to live eternally in His presence. A purpose must have a fulfilment, and the fulfilment of God's purpose with us came through the example of Christ. To make God's purpose our purpose is to realize our potential - and to accept his gift of life.

However, as you say:

That it was built for a purpose does not mean that is has a purpose of its own. Do you see the difference? This was the point of my intelligent toaster analogy; though we might create something for a purpose, having free-will allows it to select its own purpose.

We can choose a different purpose for ourselves, obviously. But without knowing God's purpose for you (or knowing that He has a purpose for you), you have no "other" purpose except the ones you manage to give yourself. Nothing wrong with that of course, except we don't have an example of it - we don't have a model. That's blind purpose; a life in search of meaning. Eventually most people can come to no other conclusion than that we don't have a purpose.

Because how can you find out what you're supposed to be doing, if it only depends on what you decide you should be doing?

There's a purpose to "purpose" - it infuses meaning. Someone who has a purpose will feel his life has meaning. But if you don't accept the meaning God gave you, such meaning depends entirely on your own efforts. If you don't feel your life has meaning, it won't - which again is the natural conclusion many people come to.

 

[rainbow__princess_4]

*drunkenly* you orlsss suck! youse do! gooo ta hell wit chaaaaa! *passes out*

 

[Raithere]

Not reaching the potential that comes with God's purpose, which is to live eternally in His presence. A purpose must have a fulfilment, and the fulfilment of God's purpose with us came through the example of Christ.

I'm unconcerned with God's purpose. Unless he deigns to come down personally and discuss it with me I really don't care. Frankly, I take umbrage with his presumption.

To make God's purpose our purpose is to realize our potential - and to accept his gift of life.

If it's truly a gift, isn't it mine to do with as I please? Why then the conditions?

Nothing wrong with that of course, except we don't have an example of it - we don't have a model. That's blind purpose; a life in search of meaning.

I disagree. It is the rational ones who discover purpose through their own volition whose eyes are open. Whether they accept the directives of God as proclaimed by religion or not is incidental. It is the unthinking, those who blindly accept the purpose that authority hands them who are blind. Herein lays the chief evil of institutionalized religion; that one would give away their own purpose and discretion to that of another. It is, of course, not religion but politics.

Eventually most people can come to no other conclusion than that we don't have a purpose.

I would hardly say 'most'. People that can find no purpose typically kill themselves in one way or another. Most people find many different purposes in life, including theists, few of whom live solely for their God alone.

Because how can you find out what you're supposed to be doing, if it only depends on what you decide you should be doing?

When did 'supposed to' enter into it? Where does the imperative come from? My answer is that you're not 'supposed to' do anything in particular. That's the whole challenge of life; to define who you are and what, if any, your purpose is.

There's a purpose to "purpose" - it infuses meaning. Someone who has a purpose will feel his life has meaning. But if you don't accept the meaning God gave you, such meaning depends entirely on your own efforts. If you don't feel your life has meaning, it won't - which again is the natural conclusion many people come to.

Purpose is meaning and I would rather find my own than spend my life serving another's. It is the latter that seems empty and hollow to me; unable to find or create meaning in ones own life and thus seeking it elsewhere. Instead I would make use of the faculties that I have and develop my own purpose in accordance with my values and the world around me. This is to me what it means to be alive, conscious, and possess free will.

~Raithere

 

[Jenyar]

You're being unnecessarily simplistic about this. Finding your purpose in God doesn't exclude any purpose you can find on your own - it includes it, and infuses it with meaning and direction (a "supposed to") there would not otherwise be. Finding purpose without finding God is quite possible, but should logically leave you with an empty feeling of deluding yourself because you already believe deep down it's just a functional illusion designed to compensate for not knowing how or why you're here. It's your god.

I can respect your decision not to subject your will to a God you don't understand. Of course your life is a gift you can apply as you choose. However, your request that He comes down personally has already been granted - and it seems to have made no difference to you. You still prefer to create your own.