Punishing women for false accusation of rape

[wegs]

That's a great point, about the 'imbalance of power.' I work for a firm where I have to meet with clients on occasion. There are men who are clients who treat me with respect, as I treat them...but, there are a few men who feel the need to flirt, compliment, etc. Looking for a reaction of some type, I'm thinking. It puts me in an awkward position because they're clients, but I politely smile and redirect the conversation. The funny thing is though, I wouldn't tolerate it from a male coworker. I've thought about shifting these few flirty clients to one of the guys on my team, but when asked why, will I be judged that I can't ''handle it?'' So, I just don't say anything, at the risk of losing the client, or having to deal with my team's scrutiny.

That imbalance of ''power'' is a real thing, but not all men approach women in that way, thankfully.

So, maybe your post triggers me paddoboy, because I feel for any woman who believes she has to smile along with a customer who is flirting with her.

 

[Seattle]

That's a great point, about the 'imbalance of power.' I work for a firm where I have to meet with clients on occasion. There are men who are clients who treat me with respect, as I treat them...but, there are a few men who feel the need to flirt, compliment, etc. Looking for a reaction of some type, I'm thinking. It puts me in an awkward position because they're clients, but I politely smile and redirect the conversation. The funny thing is though, I wouldn't tolerate it from a male coworker. I've thought about shifting these few flirty clients to one of the guys on my team, but when asked why, will I be judged that I can't ''handle it?'' So, I just don't say anything, at the risk of losing the client, or having to deal with my team's scrutiny.

That imbalance of ''power'' is a real thing, but not all men approach women in that way, thankfully.

So, maybe your post triggers me paddoboy, because I feel for any woman who believes she has to smile along with a customer who is flirting with her.

I think if you asked to shift those clients over to a guy it would signal that you couldn't handle it or had to receive special favors.

If a guy had a female client who always did a little light flirting with him he's not likely to ask to trade that client with a female co-worker. I get that a woman flirting with a male isn't potentially as physically threatening as when it is the other way around but if those guys aren't making you feel physically threatened, I'd just learn to deal with it.

There is a certain "toughness" that is expected in the corporate world if you want to move up as opposed to being an administrative assistance who plans to stay put for her whole career.

Part of moving up is handing problems without going to your boss every time. If you make your bosses job harder, you're not going to move up as soon.

Part of it isn't fair to expect more of a woman than a man would have to deal with in that a man isn't likely to mind a flirting client as much (or at all depending on the situation) but it is legitimate IMO for women to have to "suck it up" and like a seed "grow where you are planted" because guys are expected to do that from an early age.

When women always have complaints or need special consideration they just aren't going to be picked when there are other qualified candidates who can "handle it".

Most guys (me included) in a work situation are going to think long and hard before ever admitting or asking for any kind of special consideration or to demonstrate that they can't handle anything. In my mind, that's the real job (regardless of your field or specific job). "Can you do this job" ... the only answer is "yes, no problem".

 

[wegs]

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t ask for special consideration. As mentioned in my post, I don’t say anything.

But, I don’t agree with some of what you’ve said. You’re under the impression that you need to tolerate inappropriate behavior just to get ahead. You really don’t. That’s not part of anyone’s job description.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

But, I don’t agree with some of what you’ve said. You’re under the impression that you need to tolerate inappropriate behavior just to get ahead. You really don’t. That’s not part of anyone’s job description.

That’s not part of anyone’s job description.

that is a part of my job description.

however, generically i agree with you.
the old adage of "you have to copy the boss & culture to get ahead" has changed

the good bosses are still the good bosses
the culture has changed(in the better work places)

profit drives business evolution
equally cost drives business to evolve.

the whole punishment of the victim theme seems to be consistent as a political vehicle

Anti-Whistle-blower fanatics
Anti Womens Rights fanatics
Anti LGBTQ+ fanatics
Anti pro democracy Fanatics(Fascists Nazis & Communists)
Anti Refugee Fanatics
Anti Immigration Fanatics

bullying enabling ? what is culture ? who sets the standard ?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...rump-renews-attacks-omar-190718012234426.html
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/152...hant-women-make-sexual-harassment-accusations

 

[Seattle]

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t ask for special consideration. As mentioned in my post, I don’t say anything.

But, I don’t agree with some of what you’ve said. You’re under the impression that you need to tolerate inappropriate behavior just to get ahead. You really don’t. That’s not part of anyone’s job description.

You are free to not agree with everything I say of course but I'm just sharing how a guy would probably deal with it. Whether its appropriate or not isn't the real point I was trying to make.

A guy would probably figure out a way to deal with it without involving his boss. If it bothered me that much then I would talk to the female client and I would have to do it in such a way (hopefully) that I didn't lose the client or embarrass them too much.

Just passing it on to someone else doesn't really address the problem and what if you worked in an all female office? There would be no one to pass it on to.

Maybe this is a subject for another thread but in my mind as an employee who wants to get ahead, I don't look at the company as something that I have to fight (us vs them). I don't look at it from a union point of view.

I don't have to do anything morally wrong but small problems should be solved by me if I want greater responsibilities down the line. I can't handle a client isn't something that I would want to go to my boss about even if it was a problem.

I would handle it.

That's not to say that this is the only way to do it (and thus a new thread could be started but I'm not going to start one .

If you think another approach and way of looking at this is better, I'm all ears. I do think it's an interesting subject. If a pipefitter could answer this question I'd ask Paddoboy but I think you have the more relevant experience so I'll ask you.

 

[James R]

paddoboy:

My approach despite what slant you see fit to put on it, with regards to how I address a shop assistant whose name I do not know, will continue, as that is the pedant that I am referring to. The same as if I appraoch a male assistant, I'll say hey excuse me mate.

You're nothing if not consistent, even when it comes to sexism. I didn't really expect that you would take any of this on board.

There is a tendency to appeal to "tradition" when it comes to stuff like this, and the old are more susceptible to that than the young. It's hard to recognise that just because things have always been a certain way, it doesn't mean that's the right thing. It's even harder when it involves coming to a realisation that you, yourself are at fault. It is even harder when that realisation means that you need to make some changes to yourself. We're all inclined to think of ourselves as good people with good intentions. But that's not enough.

It brings me back to this:

And I can assure you, and bet my short n curlies, that the simple things like calling a bloke a mate, or a female shop assistant "love" will continue, even when this old bastard kicks the bucket and my generation has passed on. It really is the height of pedantic stupidity to complain about it..

Dial things back a few decades and you would have heard exactly the same kind of talk from men about other things:

"Mark my words! You can bet your short and curlies, sonny, that the simple things like only men having the vote, or women keeping the house while the men go out to earn a living, will continue long after I kick the bucket and my generation has passed on. It really is the height of pedantic stupidity to complain about it. Obviously, women aren't equipped to have a say in who governs us, and a woman's place is in the kitchen. Everybody knows that."

I don't really care that much James. I live in the real world.

I know you don't care. You've lived in a world in which sexism has been the norm for so long that you've come to think that this is the only way it can be - indeed that this is how it should be. Besides, your in the privileged group that that has always benefited from this arrangement, so why would you be motivated to change anything?

While we're on that subject, I might remind you that I, too, live in the real world. So does the women who showed you how to find your olive oil. You and your attitudes are part of her daily lived experience.

Count it anyway you like, it will continue, not just my generation, but following generations. Reason? Because it is simply over the top pedantic stupidity for anyone to object to such.

Not for anyone. Just for you, as a representative of a certain class of sexist old men.

I worked for QANTAS James for 14 years, and at one time when all this political correctness was the 'in thing" we got instructions from top management that we were to stop calling manhole covers, manhole covers and call them access or person holes. The union laughed off such stupidity and we had the support of first line management. Needless to say the nonsense was withdrawn.

I see. You regard speaking out about sexual harassment as just another case of political correctness gone mad. Which is really just another way of saying you're opposed to treating people decently if it suits you not to.

Wrong again, I rung up the manager because she went out of her way to put me on the right track and deserved a compliment.

How many times have you rung the manager to praise the male employees at the supermarket? You know, because they deserve a compliment. I'm really interested to know.

Don't knnow JAMES...I hope she got a raise?

Like I said, no ability to put yourself in her shoes.

Your hypotheticals are yours to dream up James.

It would be great if this kind of thing was just a hypothetical, but incidents just like the one you describe, involving men who are just like you, happen all over the place, all the time. Perhaps you should ask your wife about her experiences of unwanted attention from men. Because, I'm confident she'll have had some.

 

[Bells]

The message is just short and sweet Bells. and adequately conveyed in the OP, not withstanding your agenda driven interpretation.
Simple question Bells, and if I get a reasonable answer, I'll drop out of this tiresome merry-go-round and leave you to it. Do you have any sympathy for the two blokes in the cases in the OP?

Where have I ever not expressed sympathy for victims?

In other words, why do you expect or demand that I express sympathy in a particular way with these two men? This is like this expectation in the US that Muslims come out and speak out against terrorism because they are Muslims..

Do you expect me, a woman and a rape victim, to speak out for these two men because of..?

And reasonable answer? Given your performance over the course of this thread, you are incapable of understanding "reasonable" if it came out and smacked you in the face.

See, this is why your motives are so obscene.

Tell you what James, as one of the old men you sarcastically refer to, firstly remember that we are there, you have yet to make it, secondly many of these old men [no not me I just missed out] have fought and some died for your country.

Huh? What does this have to do with false accusation of rape?

The frivilous incidentals that you find disturbing, in actual fact I really don't believe, and see it as just a ploy. And I can assure you, and bet my short n curlies, that the simple things like calling a bloke a mate, or a female shop assistant "love" will continue, even when this old bastard kicks the bucket and my generation has passed on. It really is the height of pedantic stupidity to complain about it..

Why are you bringing up your pubic hair?

And why are you still doubling on on your sexism?

Done some shopping btw this morning and asked the female attendant, "excuse me love, where do you hide the extra virgin olive oil?"
Now James, she was young, pretty and gladly walked me to the appropriate aisle.

Sleazy.. Creepy sleazy.

Sweet Jesus.. What the hell is wrong with you?

I had another female bank teller helping me a few weeks ago, told her she had a beautiful accent love, where do you come from? Belgium was the answer.
I then went home, rung up the manager and remarked about how she had gone above and beyond the call of duty in assisting me and giving me advice.
What I'm trying to say James, is really, cut the crap!

Do you say this to men in the same way as well? Or do you just save that for women?

Bells lied about me being a pervert and she has continued lying on other matters that I have corrected her on. Please check out my replies to her posts.

I have quoted your own words to you.

Most recent horrific example:

Done some shopping btw this morning and asked the female attendant, "excuse me love, where do you hide the extra virgin olive oil?"
Now James, she was young, pretty and gladly walked me to the appropriate aisle.

Let me put it this way..

Wait, just one more, sorry. No I don't have a problem with women Bells, and never have. Even with the time many years ago, when I wore a younger man's clothes, and got slapped on the arse by some Blonde. And the couple of times I was happily seduced by sheilas that I fancied anyway. And have never really had any problem with the woman I have been married to for 42 years, despite her being very religious. Other relationships with women over the years have been non consequential as has been my relationship with many blokes also. But then, I'm a really nice bloke Bells, who actually makes friends very easily, but who despises bullies of all persuasions, both male and female.Thankfully, I don't know you at all, except you seem to fit into that female bullying category, going on your posts of course.

Oookaaay?

What does this have to do with this thread?

Is this meant to be a testament to your virility or something?

You asked me the following question Bells....
"No no, tell us how you really don't have a problem with women, paddoboy"..
I'm simply answering it, and showing in the process, that your heavily biased opinion of me, is nothing more then emotional crap.
And with regards to my virility Bells, actually quite adequate for an old bastard, and no need to take any of the little blue pills as yet. But I do prefer to keep the conversation above the navel Bells.

Please tell me that you aren't now commenting on your sexual prowess?

Did you behave this way in the workplace as well? Or do you save this side of you for the internet?

In short, carrying on like a pervert while complaining and calling women "bitches", feminazi's, etc, is not a good look for you.

I am not lying.

You haven't corrected anything. Instead, you dug a bigger hole for yourself and kept doubling down.

We get it. You're a man. No one cares.

Just stop.

And for Christ's sakes:

Done some shopping btw this morning and asked the female attendant, "excuse me love, where do you hide the extra virgin olive oil?"
Now James, she was young, pretty and gladly walked me to the appropriate aisle.

Never, ever, do creepy shit like this again.

Jesus..

 

[wegs]

You are free to not agree with everything I say of course but I'm just sharing how a guy would probably deal with it. Whether its appropriate or not isn't the real point I was trying to make.

A guy would probably figure out a way to deal with it without involving his boss. If it bothered me that much then I would talk to the female client and I would have to do it in such a way (hopefully) that I didn't lose the client or embarrass them too much.

Just passing it on to someone else doesn't really address the problem and what if you worked in an all female office? There would be no one to pass it on to.

Maybe this is a subject for another thread but in my mind as an employee who wants to get ahead, I don't look at the company as something that I have to fight (us vs them). I don't look at it from a union point of view.

I don't have to do anything morally wrong but small problems should be solved by me if I want greater responsibilities down the line. I can't handle a client isn't something that I would want to go to my boss about even if it was a problem.

I would handle it.

That's not to say that this is the only way to do it (and thus a new thread come be started but I'm not going to start one .

If you think another approach and way of looking at this is better, I'm all ears.

Um, I am handling it. Lol I never went to anyone about it, I’m sharing what thoughts went through my head, but I added...that I didn’t do anything.

I forget that you like lecturing.

That said, physical advances don’t start at one encounter, they start with verbal flirtations etc. If I continue to do nothing and a client escalates the behavior, someone may ask me why I didn’t say anything. These types of situations happen everyday for women. It doesn’t mean we aren’t strong, it means there is a double standard that we are sometimes dealing with.

 

[James R]

Do you say this to men in the same way as well? Or do you just save that for women?

I wonder how many male bank tellers paddo has complimented regarding their beautiful accents. And how many times did he ring the manager later to say what a top bloke that teller with the accent was?

I'm wondering just how much interest paddo habitually shows for the countries of origin of male bank tellers.

 

[James R]

Seattle:

I think if you asked to shift those clients over to a guy it would signal that you couldn't handle it or had to receive special favors.

In other words, you're saying that such a request, coming from a woman, might damage her job prospects in the shorter or longer term. And whose fault is that? Who is receiving these signals that she can't handle it?

As her employer, wouldn't it be better to start from the position that she shouldn't have to handle that kind of crap?

If a guy had a female client who always did a little light flirting with him he's not likely to ask to trade that client with a female co-worker.

You're imagining a situation in which the presumed power is with the guy, by default.

I get that a woman flirting with a male isn't potentially as physically threatening as when it is the other way around but if those guys aren't making you feel physically threatened, I'd just learn to deal with it.

It's that kind of attitude that gives licence to men to continue behaving badly. Women have been just dealing with this kind of thing for far too long already.

There is a certain "toughness" that is expected in the corporate world if you want to move up as opposed to being an administrative assistance who plans to stay put for her whole career.

The male default, again. The glass ceiling. The women need to act like men to "move up".

Thankfully, in some parts of the corporate world, at least, the assumptions are gradually evolving, particularly as women show that they can do the job equally as well as, or better than, the men who have traditionally had a stranglehold on the top jobs, and all without having to pretend they are men.

Part of moving up is handing problems without going to your boss every time. If you make your bosses job harder, you're not going to move up as soon.

That's about the first gender-neutral comment you've made in this post.

Part of it isn't fair to expect more of a woman than a man would have to deal with in that a man isn't likely to mind a flirting client as much (or at all depending on the situation) but it is legitimate IMO for women to have to "suck it up" and like a seed "grow where you are planted" because guys are expected to do that from an early age.

No, they aren't. The guys typically don't have to decide whether to "suck it up" and put up with workplace sexual harassment. It still happens to men on occasion, but far less often than it happens to women. It's not a level playing field when it comes to this.

When women always have complaints or need special consideration they just aren't going to be picked when there are other qualified candidates who can "handle it".

Yes, the men are selected "on merit". Their "merit" is that they don't complain about being harassed as much. The reason they don't complain is that, mostly, it doesn't happen to them. See the picture that is starting to form?

Most guys (me included) in a work situation are going to think long and hard before ever admitting or asking for any kind of special consideration or to demonstrate that they can't handle anything. In my mind, that's the real job (regardless of your field or specific job). "Can you do this job" ... the only answer is "yes, no problem".

Again, a male stereotype comes into play: the stereotype of the independent male who is good as suppressing his emotions and plowing on in spite of adversity. These men don't visit the doctor when they are ill. Some of them eventually burn out due to accumulated stress and lack of a work-life balance. Nobody rocks the boat, so the boat stays the same.

 

[Bells]

I wonder how many male bank tellers paddo has complimented regarding their beautiful accents. And how many times did he ring the manager later to say what a top bloke that teller with the accent was?

I'm wondering just how much interest paddo habitually shows for the countries of origin of male bank tellers.

Or asking how many young men working in supermarkets about where their "extra virgin olive oil was hidden" while noting how young and pretty they were..

 

[Seattle]

Seattle:


In other words, you're saying that such a request, coming from a woman, might damage her job prospects in the shorter or longer term. And whose fault is that? Who is receiving these signals that she can't handle it?

As her employer, wouldn't it be better to start from the position that she shouldn't have to handle that kind of crap?


You're imagining a situation in which the presumed power is with the guy, by default.


It's that kind of attitude that gives licence to men to continue behaving badly. Women have been just dealing with this kind of thing for far too long already.


The male default, again. The glass ceiling. The women need to act like men to "move up".

Thankfully, in some parts of the corporate world, at least, the assumptions are gradually evolving, particularly as women show that they can do the job equally as well as, or better than, the men who have traditionally had a stranglehold on the top jobs, and all without having to pretend they are men.


That's about the first gender-neutral comment you've made in this post.


No, they aren't. The guys typically don't have to decide whether to "suck it up" and put up with workplace sexual harassment. It still happens to men on occasion, but far less often than it happens to women. It's not a level playing field when it comes to this.


Yes, the men are selected "on merit". Their "merit" is that they don't complain about being harassed as much. The reason they don't complain is that, mostly, it doesn't happen to them. See the picture that is starting to form?


Again, a male stereotype comes into play: the stereotype of the independent male who is good as suppressing his emotions and plowing on in spite of adversity. These men don't visit the doctor when they are ill. Some of them eventually burn out due to accumulated stress and lack of a work-life balance. Nobody rocks the boat, so the boat stays the same.

I agree that your last comments are often the way it is. Your others are a little off-base IMO. I'm not assuming anything. The "boss" in question could be a female. I'm saying that in that environment everyone who gets ahead sucks it up.

Now I'm not talking about the kinds of incidents that the me too movement was founded on. Sure, you should go to your boss in those cases and things should be different on up the line.

A client smiling at you and telling you that you are particularly attractive today is the kind of thing I'm talking about and I think (I could be wrong) that's what Wegs was talking about.

It's a little uncomfortable. I think you can probably address this with your client or come up with some solution other than asking your boss to transfer this client to someone else. The actual facts would be a judgement call of course.

My point would be the same if we were talking about some uncomfortable small problem even if it wasn't gender related at all.

Your coworkers have to work this Saturday because a big client is coming to the office on Monday. Your son/daughter has a sports event that you ideally would like to attend. Everyone in the office has kids with sporting events. The dads, on this occasion make the sacrifice and work on Saturday. A female coworker (mom) asks to not come in this Saturday.

If that happens over and over, she isn't going to get promoted as quickly. That's all. And that was the topic and whether there is another way of looking at this other than the one I presented.

 

[James R]

Seattle:

I agree with you that there are situations that are less serious and situations that are more serious, and an appropriate reaction to one situation may not be the appropriate reaction in a different situation.

Regarding corporate culture more generally, it's not something I have a lot of direct experience in, so I'm not going to make lots of experience-based pronouncements about it. What I would say, however, is that a lot of corporate environments are still structured around the notion that Dad works while Mum stays at home and looks after the kids, when the reality these days is more often that Dad and Mum both work and share the responsibilities regarding the kids, to a greater or lesser extent. Having said that, it is still tends to be women who end up with the greater load of "home duties", and a lot of those women end up sacrificing "getting ahead" in the corporate world in order to be there for their families.

I think that corporations - workplaces in general, when it comes to it - still have a long way to go to really start to cater for equality between men and women. The entire way "work" is structured in our societies still retains notions and ideals and policies that date back to an era where women were effectively excluded from those kinds of roles. Change is happening, but it is slow and incremental.

I should also add that the downsides are not all for the women. The expectation that Dads will come in on Saturday to prepare for the big client coming on Monday may be par for the course, but I don't think it is an expectation that is conducive to creating a really healthy society.

 

[exchemist]

Yea, I hear you...but we're speaking about workplace ''etiquette,'' and the professional way to address one's coworkers is by their first name. If a stranger calls you a cute nickname, so be it. If you don't mind it. But, we are speaking more about the workplace, and the discussion sort of veered off into strangers calling us nicknames.

That said, being middle eastern, I do like 'habibi.' (just not at work!!)

Oh absolutely. I was just interested by your anecdote. For someone at work, who knows you perfectly well by name and you see regularly, could obviously be taken as showing a lack of professional respect.

By the way, for a woman it should be "habibti", shouldn't it? (It's been 35 years).

 

[paddoboy]

If a pipefitter could answer this question I'd ask Paddoboy but I think you have the more relevant experience so I'll ask you.

Perhaps you are simply ignorant of what a pipe Fitter is. I was a Fitter/Machinist/Welder. And having ever served in two companies, ICIANZ for 27 years and QANTAS FOR 14 years, along with sensible hard work, investments enabled me to retire 5 years before the official retirement age of 65. Oh, and I also get no pension as my assets are above a certain level where the pension cuts out. Done pretty well actually...two story house, my Mancave in the back with mezzanine level which I built myself when I retired, and two 65inch TV's one in my man cave. Comfortable without complaint and on the shores of Maroubra Beach. You should visit sometime..fridge always full of Fosters.

I wonder how many male bank tellers paddo has complimented regarding their beautiful accents. And how many times did he ring the manager later to say what a top bloke that teller with the accent was?

I'm wondering just how much interest paddo habitually shows for the countries of origin of male bank tellers.

If it was a Male bankteller that went beyond the call of duty to help me, I would have done the same. In fact I have with a GIO car insurance salesperson and invaluable advice a few years ago.
I also pride myself on recognising accents, and have asked many taxi drivers [as well as the female bankteller] where they came from. I'm pretty good at it.
Does that explain it all James?
I will bow out now as I see why this has created the furore it has, and I'm truly sorry to anyone that has personally experienced any form of sexual assault.

 

[James R]

Does that explain it all James?

I think it's pretty clear where you stand when it comes to sexism. It's been an education.

I will bow out now as I see why this has created the furore it has...

You've really given us nothing that shows that you really do understand what all the fuss is about. So, based on that, I'm not convinced.

I'm truly sorry to anyone that has personally experienced any form of sexual assault.

That's good to hear, but that wasn't what this thread was about.

 

[paddoboy]

I think it's pretty clear where you stand when it comes to sexism. It's been an education.

Which shows again you are totally wrong. But I can live with your misinterpretation/s.

 

[wegs]

Oh absolutely. I was just interested by your anecdote. For someone at work, who knows you perfectly well by name and you see regularly, could obviously be taken as showing a lack of professional respect.

By the way, for a woman it should be "habibti", shouldn't it? (It's been 35 years).

''Habibi'' is fine to be used to describe men and women, but habibti can be used too, when describing or talking to a woman. (Of course, only if it's welcomed. It's usually used as a term of endearment between gf/bf/spouse, and friends.)

Wrong usage would be walking up to a customer service person and saying ''Hey habibi, can you tell me where you hide the extra virgin olive oil?"

 

[exchemist]

''Habibi'' is fine to be used to describe men and women, but habibti can be used too, when describing or talking to a woman. (Of course, only if it's welcomed. It's usually used as a term of endearment between gf/bf/spouse, and friends.)

Wrong usage would be walking up to a customer service person and saying ''Hey habibi, can you tell me where you hide the extra virgin olive oil?"

...just for example.......

 

[billvon]

If it was a Male bankteller that went beyond the call of duty to help me, I would have done the same.

You would tell a female bank teller she has a beautiful accent. You would tell a male bank teller he was doing a great job.

There's a difference there, if you look hard enough.