Public Hanging in Iran of serial child-killer.

[Baron Max]

Why a public hanging? What is gained by public punishment (if anything), do you think? Who benefits?

It's done in public as an example to those who might consider doing what that guy did ....a show of force, an example of what happens to those who disobey society's laws, a strengthening of social morality.

You might not agree with that, but many, many cultures have such public punishments, including executions. And I hope you're not going to condemn them for it by using western standards of morality. Or is it your thought that all cultures should conform to YOUR ideal of morality? And if they don't, you'd force them to conform? Surely not!

Where is this liberal ideal of accepting all people and all cultures with open arms and good-will? Does that ideal suffer some when those others don't conform?

Baron Max

 

[milkweed]

It was done to satisfy the crowd's bloodlust. Despicable and barbaric.

It wasn't justice, it was revenge.

Yup. Revenge is a normal reaction for a parent (and for others, including those who sentenced him) who have found the bodies of children (theirs, their neighbors, etc). The childrens lives ended in one of the most horrific ways possible. I know for sure, some scumbag child rapist/killer ever gets ahold of my kid, I would put the rope around his neck myself. And feel joy doing it. But for me, its a whole lot easier to feel empathy for those who have lost a part of their family to such a horror, than to think a child rapist/killer deserves anything other than death.

The perp knew he would face death as a possible punishment and chose to rape and kill children anyways. Yet the possibility of his own death did not slow him down. Hmmm.... Maybe there just isnt a point in this particular sexual predator/serial killers continued existance. Yeah, it was justice.

All thats left to say about this particular perps ending is Good Riddence.

 

[Arditezza]

In the United States when they put people to death, the victims families are invited to view the execution. Is that barbaric? And the United States still hangs people. They execute people as well, they gas them (very painful as I understand as you sort of suffocate for 3 to 5 minutes before most of them drown on their own vomit and mucus.) No one in the United States has room to talk about barbaric justice, really. And no matter how hard I try, Xerxes... I cannot fathom mustering any kind of compassion for someone who has brutally murdered someone I love. I'll leave that to the Christians. It's the only thing they seem to do well.

This guy killed 20 children all of them with family. Perhaps there wasn't enough room in the execution area to house all twenty families that wanted some closure to the fact that one of their children who they loved dearly was ripped violently from their lives and suffered greatly before dying alone.

Iran is not a primative country. And in Pakistan a few years ago, Javed Iqbal lured over 100 young boys to his home where he slowly tortured and raped each one until they died, usually by Javed slowly hanging or strangling them on chain in his bedroom, he dismembered each one and then he dissolved them in a vat of acid. Javed's diary held a detailed account of each and every brutal murder, and he did write a confession.

The judge ordered that he and one of his accomplices be taken to the market square, where, in front of the families of their victims, they were to be strangled with the same chain used to kill more than 100 boys. Their bodies would then be dismembered and the remains, dissolved in acid. Unfortunately for the families, both Javed and his accomplice hung themselves with bedsheets in their cells a few nights before their scheduled execution.

 

[Xerxes]

Maybe I would feel differently if I had kids of my own. But you don't need compassion to be disgusted by people who think that a degrading public execution can compensate for their death. How does it make us any different from them?

Your 'eye for an eye' mentality is more characteristic of Christianity than 'compassion' is. They're the ones keeping capital punishment alive, AFAIK.

No one in the United States has room to talk about barbaric justice, really.

What if they're already against the idea of execution?

 

[Arditezza]

Then they should do something about it, rather than posting their outrage on an internet forum that does nothing but feed their own ego.

 

[Xerxes]

I've already told you, theres no capital punishment where I live(Canada). And what I'm expressing is not outrage, but disgust.

The affairs of backwards countries is not of my concern.

 

[Baron Max]

The affairs of backwards countries is not of my concern.

Then why are you expressing "disgust"? Or for that matter, any emotions at all?

Good post, Arditezza, thank you.

Baron Max

 

[Silas]

It's done in public as an example to those who might consider doing what that guy did ....a show of force, an example of what happens to those who disobey society's laws, a strengthening of social morality.

One argument I would offer against this kind of thing is that in the modern world of telecommunications and technology, there simply is no need for a public exectution pour encourager les autres, or indeed any other reason.

 

[Baron Max]

....the modern world of telecommunications and technology, there simply is no need for a public exectution....

Have you seen some of the hi-tech telecommunications equipment in Iranian villages lately? I think smoke signals and drums are "hi-tech" in some of those regions. No, only a very, very few of the wealthy has such things and they don't need to see it in public.

I would also ask you ...what's the difference in seeing a hanging on tv and seeing one in public? Does that somehow make it less horrific?

As to any other reason? If Iranians want to execute criminals in public, who are we to say it's wrong for them?

Baron Max

 

[James R]

Baron Max:

It's done in public as an example to those who might consider doing what that guy did ....a show of force, an example of what happens to those who disobey society's laws, a strengthening of social morality.

That's probably the justification given. The question is: does it actually have that effect. Does witnessing a public execution actually reduce crime, or make people "more moral"? I doubt it.

You might not agree with that, but many, many cultures have such public punishments, including executions. And I hope you're not going to condemn them for it by using western standards of morality.

I condemn the death sentence, whether it is applied in a Western country, or elsewhere. I do not apologise for not being a moral relativist, either. I do not believe that all systems of morals are equal. In fact, I don't think anybody really believes that.

Or is it your thought that all cultures should conform to YOUR ideal of morality? And if they don't, you'd force them to conform? Surely not!

I'd prefer it if all cultures conformed to my ideals of morality, naturally. The question of my power to make others conform is a separate one. I should also add that I am open to argument. If somebody can convince me that they hold to a superior moral standard, through some kind of logical argument, then I am willing to change my mind. I doubt that many people are similarly flexible.

Where is this liberal ideal of accepting all people and all cultures with open arms and good-will? Does that ideal suffer some when those others don't conform?

When it comes to basic human rights, there are things which ought not to be tolerated. Sadly, the practicalities and realities of our world mean that many such things go ahead regardless.

 

[Baron Max]

Well, James, your honesty and straight-forward commentary is refreshing.

As to whether public execution (or even punishment) is a deterrent to crime, I don't really know ...I've heard "expert" commentary both ways. Personally, I think it might, but then after a while, would it become "normal" and not a derrent? I don't know!

In the latest Nat'l Geo Magazine, there was a picture of a bunch of little kids playing happily in the streets of Colombia while a drug dealer lay dead and bleeding right there on the street. ...the kids were playing without a care in the world as tho' nothing was wrong. What does that tell us??? I ain't so sure.

I do not believe that all systems of morals are equal. In fact, I don't think anybody really believes that.

Oh, heavens, NO! In fact, quite the opposite. Everyone thinks their own morality is THE morality by which all others should live! "I'm right and you're wrong!" is one of man's most repeated thoughts/comments.


"Human rights"? I have a big problem with "human rights", because I'm not a creationist nor a believer in god/gods. And so "human rights" is just a term that humans invent for their own selfishness and egos. I.e., if humans have rights, then all animals have those rights. And if that's so, is it one of the gazelle's "rights" to be eaten by a lion? And what of the lion's "lion rights" versus the "gazelle rights"? Complicated, huh? ....UNLESS you're a creationist.

But you're right ...the world of reality isn't something that we can just turn off because we don't like it. We may not have to accept it and we might try to change it, but we can't turn it off.

Baron Max

 

[§outh§tar]

Why a public hanging? What is gained by public punishment (if anything), do you think? Who benefits?

Those who want to see of course. As far as common sense goes, a killing for the people by the people is in no way immoral. In fact, we may correctly say it is amoral. Since society* makes the rules, society gets to break them. No relativistic principles necessary really.

*By society I mean the ruling class of course and not the sheep in general.

 

[Bells]

While I have always been a stong supporter of the end of the death penalty and also a strong believer in human rights, I strangely find myself standing on the other side in this case. One explanation could be that I think about what this animal has done and at the same time I feel my child kicking inside me and I think to myself, if this were my child, would I still think that he shouldn't be made to suffer? The answer came back as an emphatic no. This man should be made to suffer for his crimes. The victim's families deserve to see this man punished as their children had been at this man's hands. Their children did not deserve to die the way they were made to die, just as they did not deserve to have their children taken from them in that particular way. The families of the victims deserved justice and they deserve to watch as their child's killer suffered as he'd made their children suffer. This is not a case of an eye for an eye. If that was the case, then this man should have been killed in a slow and painful manner, but in a manner that would allow him to be saved each time, until he had been killed and bought back 21 times for each of the children he'd killed. This is simply a case of this man getting what deserved. 100 lashes wasn't enough for what this man did. Not even 1 million lashes will help ease the pain that the families of the victims will suffer every day until they die. This man in a way got off easily if you think about it. Because if he'd been made to suffer the indignity and the pain he'd inflicted on his victims, he'd have probably killed himself before he was taken to that square, whipped and hung publicly.

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Silas

I'm utterly revolted by this thing, not because the perpertrator does not deserve a punishment as severe as the one he received, but because doing it in public in front of what is practically a lynch mob is not only barbaric, it reveals a totally ugly side of humanity better left unexplored.

Interesting, so for you it's ok to kill him for his crimes but just don't let the public see it? Kind of hypocritical don't you think? Let me ask you something, if your child was one of this prick's victims, you wouldn't be part of that lynch mob? Or would you be standing there chanting that he should not be hung or only hung in private to preserve his dignity? Give me a break! The bastard forfeited his dignity when he took away the dignity and lives of those children. If it was one of my kids that this bastard had brutalised, I'd have been standing there with a knife waiting to castrate him as he was flogged.

This wasn't just a public lynching Silas, this allowed the family watch as the individual, who ruined their lives and did things that one cannot even stand to think about to someone they adored, be put down. One cannot even begin to imagine the pain he and his accomplice inflicted on those children. As they say, what goes around comes around. And in this particular case, it kind of has some poetic justice to it.

Xerxes

Its not about pain Xev...its about preserving human dignity.

Well I'm sure the families of the victims were thinking about the lost dignity and lives of their children when they were allowed watch the pain inflicted on the killer. He deserved what he got. The way I see it, his accomplice should have been hog tied alongside him as well. But his punishment for helping was only 15 years in jail. Lets not forget what these people did. They drugged or rendered the CHILDREN unconscious by stoning them before sexually abusing them, shattering their skulls with stones and then either burning the victims or burying them. Now where in the hell were the dignity of those children? Did they not deserve to NOT be tricked, drugged or knocked out, raped repeatedly, killed and then either buried or burnt? Mohammad Bijeh did not just end the lives of those children, he also ruined the lives of those kid's families as well.

James R

Why a public hanging? What is gained by public punishment (if anything), do you think? Who benefits?

The families would definitely benefit. They would probably get some closure at watching and even participating as they watched the killer of their children suffer as he'd made their loved one's suffer. As for the public, for one thing it would help ensure that he is further humiliated. To have women chanting and yelling for a man's death in such a patriarchal society would further belittle the killer. This town probably went to the lynching because their children could have easily been one of the victims. It's a way of sharing the parent's grief and pain and offering support. But I don't think I'd want my children to see it. If it was my child that this man had killed, I'd want every adult alive to watch him suffer as he'd made my child suffer.


Arditezza, very good post and well said.

 

[cole grey]

Honestly, if it were a lynching, and the person was going to get away with his crimes if I didn't add fuel to the fire, and it was my child that was killed and sexually assaulted, I would probably join in. I might not be proud of it later, but it is quite possible.
Since this isn't the case, I think the public participation is detrimental to a "civilized" society. Does this type of event disperse hatred or add to it? Add, I think.
Removing the murderer from existence might be sensible, but "revenge" is a childish concept that cannot be applied to this situation.

 

[mountainhare]

Let me ask you something, if your child was one of this prick's victims, you wouldn't be part of that lynch mob?

I actually thought the exact same thing today, and came to the conclusion that perhaps revenge was justifiable on this occasion.

You are right. The criminal got off easy.

 

[cole grey]

How can the ending of some lunatic's fucked up life be considered revenge for killing your innocent little child? It just doesn't make sense.
"I got you back for what you did" just isn't possible here. Why pretend?

 

[mountainhare]

How can the ending of some lunatic's fucked up life be considered revenge for killing your innocent little child?

He deserved to die... end of story. Bells made that quite clear to me in her previous post.

Perhaps when people realize that their actions have consequences, they will think twice before raping/molesting/murderering.

 

[Baron Max]

...and it was my child that was killed and sexually assaulted, I would probably join in.
Since this isn't the case, I think the public participation is detrimental to a "civilized" society.

So what you're saying is that you a hypocrite, right?

It's what you'd do if it had been YOUR child, but for anyone else in society to do it is wrong. That is so .....so, ....?

Perhaps that's whats so wrong with society these days ...we can't accept our own human emotions and characteristics. We try to pretend that society shouldn't be like they really are ...and worse, we then make laws and rules which promote that very idea of pretending that we shouldn't be human. Perhaps it's time that we accept the way we are and then mold society to fit those characteristics.

Baron Max

 

[cole grey]

What I'm saying is that the legal system sometimes takes care of criminal's punishment, when that is done properly, there is no need for wild west crowd participation, and revenge is not possible in this case.
When I spoke of participating in a lynching, that was in the scenario where the legal system was failing, and it would be due to a necessity for protecting others from the mass murderer.
Whatever. My only point was that revenge is not possible. It's not like the guy stole your camel or something, and can work off the debt.

 

[Bells]

Honestly, if it were a lynching, and the person was going to get away with his crimes if I didn't add fuel to the fire, and it was my child that was killed and sexually assaulted, I would probably join in. I might not be proud of it later, but it is quite possible.

So you'd join in if it were your child that had been killed and that would be justifiable for you, but it's not ok for the parents or families of other children to want some form of retribution? The hypocrisy and double standard here astounds me.

Since this isn't the case, I think the public participation is detrimental to a "civilized" society. Does this type of event disperse hatred or add to it? Add, I think.

Interesting. You are aware Cole Grey that the public do participate in trials and even putting people to death in the US, the supposed bastion of human rights and fairness and equality for all (excuse the sarcasm there). In Western countries, the so called 'civilised' societies, there is public participation in the form of juries. So do you think that juries are detrimental in our so called 'civilised society'? Of course this type of event adds to the hatred. Why should it not? Did this killer deserve a group hug instead? Should he be loved for his crimes and forgiven with a mere life in prison, where he's fed, clothed and sheltered for his crimes? Lets not forget what this individual has done here. He has kidnapped, raped and killed approximately 21 children. There could be more that they just have not found yet. One parent in one of the reports only had a few bones from the remains of his burnt son to bury. And you think hate should not be added or heaped upon this individual or other people like him? Are you serious?

Removing the murderer from existence might be sensible, but "revenge" is a childish concept that cannot be applied to this situation.

But this wasn't revenge. This was a justifiable form of punishment for the crimes this man has committed against not only those boys, but society in general. Imagine when the mother of one of the victims was allowed to place the noose around his neck. If I was her, I'd make sure he would know that this was for my child and all the other children he'd defiled and killed. For her and the other parents it might have been revenge. For the public at large it was a chance to punish the bastard as he deserved to be punished.

What I'm saying is that the legal system sometimes takes care of criminal's punishment, when that is done properly, there is no need for wild west crowd participation, and revenge is not possible in this case.

Ah yes, the key word... "sometimes". What if this guy had gotten 21 years in jail. One year for each victim. That would be unforgivable. The man got what he deserved. He did the crime he deserves the punishment that goes along with it. The point cole, is that a criminal's punishment is not always done properly. For this man's crime, the only proper punishment was the one that he got. It not only gave him some idea of some of the pain he'd put his victims through before they died, it also afforded him a view of the humiliation and the degradation his victims suffered under his hands with the knowledge that death would follow.