Proof there is a God

A *construct* always has *properties* which are measurable and translatable into mathematical language.
Translatable by humans, like they translate into any other language.

God has no measurable properties and therefore is not a construct.
You're defining God in a way that doesn't include your religious beliefs. You might as well define God as "Jehovah" and call Hindus, etc. atheists. A more proper definition of God would be the first cause of everything. That's what you seem to be saying mathematics is.

I am saying that regardless of causality the *function* will be mathematical.
So you're saying that mathematics must be there before anything else can be there. How is that different from a god?
 
Does the God <FSM> exist in reality?
The God <FSM> "exists" in the same why that mathematics exists - it's a made-up way of describing reality. The FSM is intended to be tongue-in-cheek and mathematics is the most precise language we have for the description of reality. Otherwise, there is no fundamental difference.
 
So are you saying that one apple and one apple doesn't make two apples unless there is a human to decide it does?
We have defined two apples as "twice as good" as one apple, mostly for purposes of trade.

Or that spirals don't follow the Fibonacci sequence unless there's a human around?
Spirals don't "follow" the Fibonacci sequence. The Fibonacci sequence describes spirals.
 
I'm seeing two things in this argument: first is the language of mathematics, and the second is the structure of mathematics. It would help if we could distinguish between the two, use different words for the two, as I feel there is considerable crossover as to what people are meaning/saying.

Maths as a language is simply that: a language. Its existence is no different from any other language, other than in its widespread use. I find it trivially true to say that this language is used to describe things. But what exactly is it describing?

Maths as structure... this is where I think the argument lies.

Before the "Great Rollback of Nov 2015" someone suggested that it would help if the term "mathematics" is defined in a way that both sides to the debate can agree on it.
Write4U offered an explanation as to what maths was but, if memory serves, it was rather a case of question-begging. But since there is no evidence of the definition remaining, can I suggest that both sides (e.g. Write4U and Sideshowbob) offer their definitions of mathematics?

I would suggest that one is referring to the language, and one to both the language AND structure.
I may be wrong, though.

So can someone please define mathematics?
 
I would suggest that one is referring to the language, and one to both the language AND structure.
I have been referring to the language. I would suggest that the "structure" of mathematics is not fundamentally different from the structure of any other language. I'm open to correction. :)
 
I have been referring to the language.
Aye, that was my interpretation. :)
I would suggest that the "structure" of mathematics is not fundamentally different from the structure of any other language. I'm open to correction. :)
I don't mean structure of the language but the underlying structure that the language is describing. Language describes something... That something is what I mean by the structure. Sorry to not be clear, can't think of a better term although I don't doubt there is a better one! :)
 
I don't mean structure of the language but the underlying structure that the language is describing.
Sure, the structure of reality is the structure of reality. But you said, "first is the language of mathematics, and the second is the structure of mathematics." What does the structure of mathematics have to do with the structure of reality? Why is it different from any other language in that regard.
 
... So can someone please define mathematics?
I did look up any as I did not want to contaminate my ideas with accepted definitions so here is my definition:

Math is facts about the relationships that exist between specific numbers and various generalizations of these facts.

For example, the distance between points (0,3) and (4,0) in the 2D xy plane is 5 and the Pythagorean Theorem is a generalization of this fact. As a second example, an infinite sum of specific numbers either is bounded or not. A generalization of that would be related to the conditions on the numbers, which will cause their sum to be bounded. And of course specific numerical relationships can get to be very complex and proving their generalization true, quite difficult in many cases.

A "Language of Math" is a symbolic representation of the facts of math including how to assert them in "math sentences." An example is: 3 < 7.
One language has become quite general in the modern world, but here is an earlier one:
... < ....... etc. where the < might be words in the local language. (less than, in the case of English)
 
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Mathematics exists just in our minds. Mathematics is only useful for describing or modelling the universe but it is not the real thing.

Yes, it is.

The forces of Physics are represented by vectors for instance. The forces are real. So the mathematics are real. Relationships are real. Equations are real.
 
Yes, it is.

And your proof for this is?

Evolution has primed humans to think mathematically. But mathematics is just a tool that humans invented to describe the universe. Mathematics doesn't exist without humans.
 
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I'm seeing two things in this argument: first is the language of mathematics, and the second is the structure of mathematics. It would help if we could distinguish between the two, use different words for the two, as I feel there is considerable crossover as to what people are meaning/saying.

Maths as a language is simply that: a language. Its existence is no different from any other language, other than in its widespread use.

I think that mathematics is different from other languages in that ideally it's a purely logical language. Mathematical statements are related to other mathematical statements by the principles of logical implication. I don't think that we can say that about any natural language, such as English, especially in their more poetic and literary applications.

I find it trivially true to say that this language is used to describe things. But what exactly is it describing?

Anything that can be truly said to be isomorphic with logical implication. In the context of this thread, perhaps we could say that mathematics describes the relationships amongst some set of true propositions about physical reality. If it's true that the objects of mathematical statements are propositions (descriptions of scientific observations perhaps), much as seems to be the case with logic, then we would also need a robust theory of truth that connects our propositions about reality with whatever reality they are true of.

Maths as structure... this is where I think the argument lies.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Write4U is making an even stronger assertion, namely that physical reality IS the structure that he calls 'mathematics'. He's identifying physical reality with mathematics, which is a very strong metaphysical assertion reminiscent of Pythagoras' belief that reality is made out of numbers, that numbers are reality's 'arche', its primordial 'stuff'.

So can someone please define mathematics?

That's way above my pay-grade. I don't really know what mathematics or logic are, where they come from or what kind of being they have in the abstract. Nor can I explain what their precise relationship is to physical reality or why mathematics seems to be so effective at describing the behavior of physical reality.

It's clear that mathematics captures or truly represents something about physical reality, what you call its 'structure'. That's why I spoke of 'isomorphism'. What that structure is, how we recognize it and what justifies our intuitions about logical necessity concerning it remain profoundly mysterious to me.

I'm just nervous when it's announced with certainty that physical reality is whatever the structure is that mathematics seemingly represents. That seems like an awfully metaphysical conclusion that appears impossible to justify and doesn't appear to answer very many questions.
 
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If somebody wants to argue that as far as is known by human beings, the physical world seems to behave in accordance with mathematics and logic, I'll agree.
I agree with that also. And as far as we know only human beings (and perhaps a few other species) have the ability to speculate. All other things behave strictly in accordance with mathematical and logical precision.
If somebody wants to argue that the physical world must necessarily behave in accordance with mathematics and logic, everywhere and everywhen, I'll say that's typically assumed by physics and cosmology, but we don't really know that it's universally true.
Can you come up with a physical event or function that is non-mathematical? Aristotle proposed that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects, but was later proven wrong by Galileo, because he did not take account for all the physical forces (mathematics) into account. If somethig does not follow mathematical laws, it can't be done!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuGI6pQFZC0
And if somebody wants to insist that physical reality IS mathematics, solidified in some mysterious way into something more tangible, I'll say that's highly speculative Pythagorean metaphysics that gets out far ahead of what any of us actually know.
Pythagoras was on the right track, the triangle is a natural fundamental universal metaphysical construct, but I would prefer Plato who afterward discovered some fundamental metaphysical mathematical constructs (Platonic solids) which are getting very close attention by recent cutting edge physics. CDT (causal dynamical triangulation) proposes a *background independent* solution to the formation (unfolding) of spacetime itself, using *the apparent fractal nature of spacetime* . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation
In real life, none of us knows what reality ultimately is. All science can do is describe how the portion of it that we can observe seems to behave. Mathematics has proven extraordinarily useful in enabling us to do that. Of course, none of us really knows what mathematics and logic are either, or what kind of being they have.
Yes we do. They have no real existence as *being* because everything in existence is the product of *function*. Do we need to know what *being* a function is? In metaphysics something does not need to exist as a physical being. OTOH, a *function* is an abstract (but provable) idea of *how* things work. There is a difference in a being (what it is) and a function (how it works).

You can say God is the Original Creator, becasue we don't know anything about gods, but you cannot say God is not mathematical, because we do know that *whatever it is* it must function mathematically or it cannot create.
All of these questions are active subjects of discussion by metaphysicians and by philosophers of mathematics, logic and science. There are countless hypotheses but the final answers aren't in yet. My personal suspicion is that these are things that human beings may never know.
And why not?
According to Tegmark it isn't all that complicated. It is the attachment of intelligence and intent to the mathematics that are cofusing the issue. All function must be mathematical, or they don't work at all, God or no God..
This can be demonstrated and is the basis for *falsification* of a hypothesis. If the maths don't work, the hypothesis is *false*.

In any case, no one knows what God is or what angels and demons are either, but I bet that God is a Word assigned to describe a universal metaphysical mathematical condition and what we call Angels and Demons are the *functions* of these mathematics in human behaviors.

There is need for any of that, especially if we believe these *spiritual beings* are intentional causalities. If we stick with the maths, we'll get there eventually. But God and all that other mystical stuff (miracles, etc) are by definition unknowable and belief in such things are useless in the physical world. Religions may have other, psychological implications, but have nothing to with *how things work in physical reality*.

There can never be Proof of God(s), it is a meaningless term to identify natural phenomena and offer emotional comfort. But even in that respect it has proven to fail on may occasions, and we say "God works in mysterious ways" as if that explains anything. In fact, in many cases it leads to chaos (conflict) instead of peace and tranquility, which in mathematics that would be called a "stable condition".

IMO, it is just another expression of the abstract concept that *everything moves in the direction of greatest satisfaction", which is mathematical function.
 
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I think that mathematics is different from other languages in that ideally it's a purely logical language. Mathematical statements are related to other mathematical statements by the principles of logical implication. I don't think that we can say that about any natural language, such as English, especially in their more poetic and literary applications.
Yes, Yes, and Yes!
Anything that can be truly said to be isomorphic with logical implication. In the context of this thread, perhaps we could say that mathematics describes the relationships amongst some set of true propositions about physical reality. If it's true that the objects of mathematical statements are propositions (descriptions of scientific observations perhaps), much as seems to be the case with logic, then we would also need a robust theory of truth that connects our propositions about reality with whatever reality they are true of.
IMO, mathematics will leads us to that ultimate revelation.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Write4U is making an even stronger assertion, namely that physical reality IS the structure that he calls 'mathematics'. He's identifying physical reality with mathematics, which is a very strong metaphysical assertion reminiscent of Pythagoras' belief that reality is made out of numbers, that numbers are reality's 'arche', its primordial 'stuff'.
Yes, and Plato took that one step further. However, instead of numbers, which are *language*. I would prefer to use the term *values*, which are abstractions (such as used in algebra).
That's way above my pay-grade. I don't really know what mathematics or logic are, where they come from or what kind of being they have in the abstract. Nor can I explain what their precise relationship is to physical reality or why mathematics seems to be so effective at describing the behavior of physical reality.
I also recognize my limitations in this area, but as an ex-accountant and having witnessed the precision of the mathematical functions in that specific area, intuitively I agree with Tegmark's argument.
It's clear that mathematics captures or truly represents something about physical reality, what you call its 'structure'. That's why I spoke of 'isomorphism'. What that structure is, how we recognize it and what justifies our intuitions about logical necessity concerning it remain profoundly mysterious to me.
I really like the logic in your thought process.
IMO, structure needs not be physical. As David Bohm (with impeccable credentials in physics) proposed in his book *Wholeness and the Implicate Order* and which you seem to agree with, there is an hierarchiccal mathematical order to everything.
I'm just nervous when it's announced with certainty that physical reality is whatever the structure is that mathematics seemingly represents. That seems like an awfully metaphysical conclusion that appears impossible to justify and doesn't appear to answer very many questions.
I can understand your hesitation and as layman myself I would be hopelessly lost in the maths themselves, however, intuitively I see a beautiful simple elegance to the concept and so far it has answered almost all questions of how reality is expressed, at least to us humans.

Perhaps the *incontrovertible proof* lies in a simple equation, such as (cause and effect = mathematical function). But I would not presume to offer this as a TOE.[/quote]
 
Mathematics exists just in our minds. Mathematics is only useful for describing or modelling the universe but it is not the real thing.
Because mathematics are not a *thing*. Mathematics is the formal abstract representations (conceptual language) of *functions*
 
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But mathematics is just a language that humans evolved to describe the universe. It doesn't exist without humans.
Someone already answered that. Humans need not be present for the universe to function mathematically.
 
Someone already answered that. Humans need not be present for the universe to function mathematically.

Mathematics is an abstraction, much as language is. But that doesn't mean it isn't objectively real. Mathematics permeates reality from the quark to the Big Bang. Reality IS mathematical, down to its very bones. And it would be whether we were here to witness it or not.
 
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