Proof that the Christian God doesn't exist "Burned" ^_~

[VitalOne]

But in the Bible it also declares that God is through us all ("One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph 4.6)).

Also I don't really see any contradiction. If there is free will, and the future isn't fixed, then with every change God would see the future, based upon the current conditions...

 

[Godless]

People who don't see the contradiction, are blind, they make excuses for the irrational, illogical existence of an entity who it's claimed to posses all these atributes, when logically looking at these atributes, we can determine logically that god is either evil, or non existent.

If god created everything, then he too created evil, if evil exist, then god created it, if evil exists but god can't stop it, then god is not benevolent, if evil can be stoped but god is unwilling to stop it, then god is a sinic, and most certainly not benevolent, if evil exists but god does nothing about it, then god is evil.

If god is omnipotent, but can't stop evil from happening, then god is not omnipotent nor is he benevolent, if god's omnipotence contradicts any of all his atributes then god can't logically be omnipotent. Because omnipotence contradicts omniscient. if god knows the future, but can't do nothing to change it cause the future is already predetermined, then god can't posibly be omnipotent, if god is benevolent but can't stop evil, then god is not omnipotent. if god is omnipresent and evil happens within his presense he's a sinic, cause he either is unwilling to stop it, unable to stop it, or he's getting his jollies off watching a child get raped! Best conclusion by using logic, is that god is non existent, that's why evil shit happens, that's why prayers are a crap shoot, that's why there exists 1000's of sects within the same "religion" and 1000's of religions exists. In all truth god is a manipulating tool of the powers to be over the ignorant masses.

 

[mustafhakofi]

shi7hi7s7hefan: posted this up couple of years ago.

Free will. Christians believe that people who do not accept Jesus as the son of God will go to Hell.?
Hell is a place defined in the New Testament of the bible which did not exist in the Old Testament.?
Christians believe that it is not wrong for their god to send his creations to Hell because their god gave mankind "free will". ?
Free will, according to Christians, is man's innate ability to know right from wrong and make his own choices freely without intervention from their god until they are judged by their god after death.?

Problem 1. Judgment and punishment.
The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.

Problem 2. Ethnic Upbringing.
How can Christians use free will as an excuse for their god sending people to Hell who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ? People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christans. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in. Perhaps not the same sect, but still the same god. 99% of these "Good Christians" would be "Good Muslims" if they had been born in Iran/iraq etc Then they would be going to Hell, too. how fair is that coming from your loving god?.

Problem 3. Knowing right from wrong.
Through basic psychology we know that violence can be increased or lessened by stimulating different areas of the brain. We know that people's moods can be altered by introducing drugs, prescription or otherwise, to the brain. We know that children are extremely effected at a subconscious level by the interactions with their family and community at a very young age. How is it that the soul of a person, which is supposed to be innately aware of good and evil, so easily manipulated with material things such as Prozac?

In short, we know for a fact that each and every adult is a product of the sums of their genetic brain structure, their very early formative years, and random luck such as being born to extremely violent, crime ridden, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to extremely affluent parents who are politically connected with the community.

Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?

The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so.

there you have it.
with thanks to WOF

 

[Prince_James]

A question must be asked:

What would give humanity this freedom of the will?

 

[Magnus]

Its all about being spiritual beings and the free-will of men/woman to make his/or her own choices, and having to be responsible for those choices.

Simply put , if we can't make our own choices how does one become enlighted from the "good choice-bad choice" senerio.

If God didnt let us figure it out we wouldnt get it. We evolve in many ways from our right as co-creators of this world.

A parallel is that we as parent know what will happen if our child touches the stove when lit. Common since tells us that not some divine knowlage.

We can even tell the kids not to, but until they do, and get the heck burned out of those little fingers they just dont get the picture.

I dont have to be run over to know what will happen if I stand on the free-way, there isnt any divine knowlage that I posses that tells me this. God has nothing to do with this either.

In the same way we have free will, and we touch the stove of life. God knows whats going to happen, but he will let us choose what we want just so we learn a lesson.

He probably does shake his head in dismay and say " I told them, but they did it anyway, what a bunch of dumb-ass's".

Then you have the blind leading the blind saying, "SEE, HE'S A MEAN AND VENGFUL GOD FOR DOING THAT TO US, HE BURNED OUR FINGERS BECAUSE WE DIDNT MIND HIM"!

All the while everyone else knows that that had nothing to do with the facts of the matter what so ever.

Yes, its a very important thing, freedom of choice!

I meant for this note to sound this simplistic and silly.
This is just my personal opinion and after all thats all any of us have.

magnus

 

[Godless]

Man Magnus do you even have a notion what "omniscient" means?

(Omniscience is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character's including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc.) wiki...

This clearly contradicts free will! if an entity can know of your choice before that choise is ever made, then the "future" is predetermined, throwing "free will" out the window. If said entity possess the power of omniscient it simply states "it" would have known all your choices before you were even born!

 

[g.owen]

He who started this thread indicates: omniscience + freewill = paradox. To me, it is like saying 2 + 2 = 5. I don’t get it. Maybe I missed something. It was mentioned that this is an old thread that has come back. Maybe some of the participates are remembering some data from the previous thread that I am not privy to?

omniscience + freewill = infinity (not paradox)

 

[VitalOne]

People who don't see the contradiction, are blind, they make excuses for the irrational, illogical existence of an entity who it's claimed to posses all these atributes, when logically looking at these atributes, we can determine logically that god is either evil, or non existent.

If god created everything, then he too created evil, if evil exist, then god created it, if evil exists but god can't stop it, then god is not benevolent, if evil can be stoped but god is unwilling to stop it, then god is a sinic, and most certainly not benevolent, if evil exists but god does nothing about it, then god is evil.

In Genesis it says God created good and evil, if God were not benevolent then he would only allow good things to happen to all people, regardless of people's actions, so someone who murders and rapes someone would be rewarded because good things would happen to them

If god is omnipotent, but can't stop evil from happening, then god is not omnipotent nor is he benevolent, if god's omnipotence contradicts any of all his atributes then god can't logically be omnipotent. Because omnipotence contradicts omniscient. if god knows the future, but can't do nothing to change it cause the future is already predetermined, then god can't posibly be omnipotent, if god is benevolent but can't stop evil, then god is not omnipotent. if god is omnipresent and evil happens within his presense he's a sinic, cause he either is unwilling to stop it, unable to stop it, or he's getting his jollies off watching a child get raped!

This problem is solved with karma. All things happen through cause and effect, the cause is your deeds, the effect is what you experience. If God were to allow good things to happen to all people, regardless of their karma he wouldn't be benevolent.

Best conclusion by using logic, is that god is non existent, that's why evil shit happens, that's why prayers are a crap shoot, that's why there exists 1000's of sects within the same "religion" and 1000's of religions exists. In all truth god is a manipulating tool of the powers to be over the ignorant masses.

You could say the same about ANY paradox, just say it doesn't exist. As for prayers, most people don't even pray the way Jesus instructs to get their desire fulfilled, so ofcourse it doesn't work...

 

[SnakeLord]

Its all about being spiritual beings and the free-will of men/woman to make his/or her own choices, and having to be responsible for those choices.

Simply put , if we can't make our own choices how does one become enlighted from the "good choice-bad choice" senerio.

When it comes down to the crunch though, there are no "choices". You did not "choose" to like the music you like, you did not "choose" to like the taste of lamb and dislike the taste of pork - these things are just part of you. The "choices", (or what seems like choices), will be made depending on your experiences in life and your nature. To use someone elses example concerning the colour of cars - I will automatically "choose" the blue car. I don't know why I prefer blue to red, I just do - and thus the "choice" will always be the same.

Sit down and convince your brain right now that leprechauns exist. You wont be able to do it, it's an impossiblity - you have no choice in the matter - (unless you are inclined to believe in leprechauns due to some life experience).

We make no "choices", we merely follow an inevitable path based upon who we are - the sum of our experiences.

A parallel is that we as parent know what will happen if our child touches the stove when lit. Common since tells us that not some divine knowlage.

We can even tell the kids not to, but until they do, and get the heck burned out of those little fingers they just dont get the picture.

Not common sense, "experience". That's why kids do it and "get the heck burned out of their fingers". They lack the experience.

 

[Godless]

In Genesis it says God created good and evil, if God were not benevolent then he would only allow good things to happen to all people, regardless of people's actions, so someone who murders and rapes someone would be rewarded because good things would happen to them

The buybull also states that if this individual that rapes and murders repents and accepts jesus as his savior he will be rewarded to go to heaven! So what gives?

Furthermore omniscient means all knowing, so before the individual who rapes and murders was born, god would have known his evil ways, so if he did nothing to stop it, he actually created the individual to do evil. But again in your buybull if he repents his evil ways and accepts jesus as his savior he will be saved. So the person is allowed to be evil just as long as he/she repents and accepts jesus as their savior and are rewarded anyway!

This problem is solved with karma. All things happen through cause and effect, the cause is your deeds, the effect is what you experience. If God were to allow good things to happen to all people, regardless of their karma he wouldn't be benevolent.

And your evidence for the above is didlysquat! You are here advocating an atribute about an entity many scholars deem "unknowable" yet you claim to know the atributes of said entity, what gives? The cuase of huricanes, volcanoes and sunamis killing millions is not caused by human deeds, but in your pathetic mind, the wrath of god, so what karma do you give an entity who destroys life with impunity? regardless of their faith in such entity?

You could say the same about ANY paradox, just say it doesn't exist. As for prayers, most people don't even pray the way Jesus instructs to get their desire fulfilled, so ofcourse it doesn't work...

so I suppose your the only sh*t head who knows how to pray properly? LOL.. Give me a break!

 

[shif7i7down]

This argument is insufficient for establishing free will. If the future is knowable, then it is set and unalterable. Whether or not God chooses to know is irrelevant.

If you flip a coin and refuse to look at it after it lands it does not change whether or not the coin is heads or tails. The event is complete, the outcome determined.

Similarly if God can know the future, whether or not he actually chooses to “look”, the outcome is determined.

Interestingly, this also highlights the problem that omnipotence and omniscience are incompatible. If God knows the future (or in fact if the future is knowable) he cannot change it, if he can change it then he cannot know it.

~Raithere

simple ideas deserves simiple answers

take ur story and add this in

the coin ='s Sirc
Head's and Tails ='s Red or Blue
God ='s the person holding the coin
God's Knowledge ='s knowing that if the coin is fliped it will have to either heads or tail
God's choice of not wanting to know ='s Choosing not to flip the coin at all



simple? yes
effective? maybe
will you understand? hopefully ^_^

DeeDeeDee ..

 

[Raithere]

Also I don't really see any contradiction. If there is free will, and the future isn't fixed, then with every change God would see the future, based upon the current conditions...

If the future is knowable then it must be static and unchanging. If the future can “change” then it isn’t knowable.

Think of it this way. God knows that I will get up and brush my teeth at 6:30 AM tomorrow morning. But 6:30 AM comes and I, exercising my free will, choose instead to hit the snooze button and sleep until 6:45 AM. This would mean that God was wrong, that he in fact did not know the future.

A parallel is that we as parent know what will happen if our child touches the stove when lit. Common since tells us that not some divine knowlage.

We can even tell the kids not to, but until they do, and get the heck burned out of those little fingers they just dont get the picture.

Knowing what the consequence of an event will be if occurs is not the same as knowing whether or not the event will occur. If God does not know whether or not something will happen then he isn’t omniscient.

But it does raise an interesting problem. As a loving parent would you allow your child to touch the hot stove while you were watching it happen and despite the fact that you were fully capable of preventing it just so that they would learn for themselves that touching a hot stove is bad? If so, would you then beat your child for all eternity for doing what you told them not to?

Nor does the argument that we must learn and decide for ourselves bear scrutiny. God, could simply have created us with a full awareness of the consequences of our actions. A child only touches a hot stove because it does not truly understand the consequences of this action. Try as we might to warn them, we cannot imbue them with our own personal understanding. Certainly if we could, we would. God, however, is not so limited.

In Genesis it says God created good and evil, if God were not benevolent then he would only allow good things to happen to all people, regardless of people's actions, so someone who murders and rapes someone would be rewarded because good things would happen to them

If God were benevolent he would not have created us with the capacity to rape and murder in the first place. I can easily think of several solutions to the problem that would not hinder free will (for instance what if humans felt everything the person they were hurting did). Apparently I am brighter than God though.

simple ideas deserves simiple answers

take ur story and add this in

the coin ='s Sirc
Head's and Tails ='s Red or Blue
God ='s the person holding the coin
God's Knowledge ='s knowing that if the coin is fliped it will have to either heads or tail

No, knowing the possible outcomes is not the same as knowing what will happen. I know the possible outcomes of flipping a coin. I also know the probabilities of one outcome vs another occuring. What I do not know is what the result of a specific flip will be. This is why I’m not omniscient in regards to coin flips.

God's choice of not wanting to know ='s Choosing not to flip the coin at all

This would be analogous to there being no future…

~Raithere