Proof that the Christian God doesn't exist "Burned" ^_~

S

shif7i7down

Registered Member
Cris said:
Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris
Click to expand...

I would like to take a moment and offer another point of view that is not presented in his examples.

example 1:
let's say that there's a guy name Sirc.
Sirc is going to purchase a new car and he has to choose between his two favorite colors. is it going to be blue or red?

*In this example"let's assume that there is no free will. Since there's no free will, it doesn't matter which color Sirc chooses. It's already been predetermined by God, so no matter which color Sirc chooses. He was just following a predestined path that God had laid out for him.

Example 2: same thing as example 1

*In this example"let's say that there is free will.
since God allows Sric to have free will. God wont know which color Sric will choose. This doesn't mean that God Doesn't know...it's just that GOD CHOOSES NOT TO KNOW, that's why it's call free will.. "God can't give Sric free will and take it away at the same time.. remember that God does not go against himself, it's like saying you're going to stand and sit at the sametime... it just wont happen". BUT! God does know the out come and/or path of each of Sric's dicision. God knows that if Sric buys the red car and then drive off the lot, he will get into a deadly crash and die just as he exits the LOT.
God also knows that if Sirc buys the blue car, he's going to exit the lot and die in a deadly crash 2 weeks later after leaving the LOT.

Final Thoughts:
you are like an ant that's crawling up a tree. And God see's every tip of every branch.. but He let's you choose which branch you're going to crawl up on.. he knows every possible out come.. knowing that if you take the branch to the left your going to end up "THERE" or if you take the branch on the right, your going to end up "HERE"..

-The Omniscience of GOD. Is Him knowing every possible out come of every possible decision that you might make.

-The Free Will of man kind. Is God choosing not to know which decision/direction you're going to make/take..

And folks that's the magic of free will!

Geez.. I hope I made some sense.. ^_^.. all in good fun right guys..
 
You do realize this implies God's knowledge is imperfect? That he litterally could not answer you what Sirc is going to do next? Accordingly, he is not omniscient, nor is he perfect.
 
"God can't give Sric free will and take it away at the same time.. remember that God does not go against himself, it's like saying you're going to stand and sit at the sametime... it just wont happen".
Click to expand...
You do also realise this implies god's not omnipotent, god can give, and take at will, stand and sit at the same time, else it would not be god, it would not be prefect.
 
Prince_James said:
You do realize this implies God's knowledge is imperfect? That he litterally could not answer you what Sirc is going to do next? Accordingly, he is not omniscient, nor is he perfect.
Click to expand...

Especially if you are talking about the god of the Bible. I don't know why people think that the god of Christianity is supposed to be all-seeing and all-powerful. In the Bible, he clearly isn't.

Didn't Jacob almost beat god in a wrestling match? Wasn't god unaware of what Eve was doing in the garden of Eden? Didn't god fail to foresee that animals would not be a perfect companion for Adam? Wasn't the Deluge an admission of mistake?

The "perfect" god that people learn about in SundaySchool is the god that was invented by the church elders over the years. It was created gradually as a way of competing with other religions (my daddy can beat up your daddy), and to end annoying questioning from the congregation.
 
As the Critic, also played by John Lovitz, said: It STINKS!

Swivel:

Quite true, the Biblical God is surely not God in the Western theological sense.
 
Classical theology, IceAgeCivilizations.

A God fulfilling these attributes:

Omnipotence.
Omniscience.
Omnipresence.
Omnibenevolence (although I think one can get rid of this and be fine).
Eternity.
Infinity.
Immutability.
Perfection.
 
Genesis 1 seems to refute this right off the bat:

God creates the universe in six days and rests on the seventh. If God could create everything in a blink of an eye and did not - then he is imperfect. If he could not - he is not omnipoten.
 
He could have very simply said: Work this way.

He needn't set a "pattern" by following it himself.

Also, for God to lower his perfection for a "pattern" is quite impossible whilst retaining said perfection.
 
Again: Not needed.

God does not eat. Do we need him to set a pattern for eating?

God does not excrete waste. Do we need him to set a pattern for going to the bathroom?

Moreover, it is again impossible for God to retain perfection and yet uphold a pattern which mandates he acts imperfectly. To act imperfectly is to act against himself.
 
I once posted that if "God can do anything and is the creator of everything then God would not want anything" but really if God can do anything and is the creator of everything God would still want things a certain way.
 
audible said:
You do also realise this implies god's not omnipotent, god can give, and take at will, stand and sit at the same time, else it would not be god, it would not be prefect.
Click to expand...

just in case some of you havent read the bible yet.. you realy should.. then maybe you'll make more sence when you're trying to argue your case..

Jesus clearly said that God does not stand devided.. because a house that is devided can not stand.
God can do everything and anything "that he wishes"
what he cant do is "something and Nothing at the same time." it's idiotic to think that if God cant Will and unwill something at the same moment he's not God". kindda like that question "Can God make a rock that is so heavy that even he cant carry it"
*The answer to that is yes, God can make the rock so heavy that he cant carry it.. and so He tries and the rock wont budge.. and then a split second later He WILLS Himself to carry it.. and He lifts it up with only his pinky..
simple enough right..? hehehe

what some of you are suggesting is that God cant be God because he cant be Black and white at the sametime.. in that sense, yes your right... but you have to remember that God deals with WILL!
God WILLS that he doesn't know what Sirc will choose "Willing Himself to not know is different from wanting to know but not knowing at all".This is GODs gift to man kind in the form of "free will"

*GOD CHOOSING TO NOT KNOW = "FREE WILL"


it's truely simple.. the only thing that God cant do is Win and Loose at the same time.. it's like saying that you ran in a race and because you cant come in first and second place at the same time you dont exist. it's stupid and idiotic.. and last but not least, It makes no sense.

DeeDeeDeeh hahahah
 
Last edited:
shif7i7down said:
God WILLS that he doesn't know what Sirc will choose "Willing Himself to not know is different from wanting to know but not knowing at all".This is GODs gift to man kind in the form of "free will"

*GOD CHOOSING TO NOT KNOW = "FREE WILL"
Click to expand...
This argument is insufficient for establishing free will. If the future is knowable, then it is set and unalterable. Whether or not God chooses to know is irrelevant.

If you flip a coin and refuse to look at it after it lands it does not change whether or not the coin is heads or tails. The event is complete, the outcome determined.

Similarly if God can know the future, whether or not he actually chooses to “look”, the outcome is determined.

Interestingly, this also highlights the problem that omnipotence and omniscience are incompatible. If God knows the future (or in fact if the future is knowable) he cannot change it, if he can change it then he cannot know it.

~Raithere
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top