Proof of the existence of God through logic

[KenshiSoro]

Alot of people find it hard to understand how God could have existed forever. Never ending, Never beginning.

I will explain, are you ready for it?

God created time. God does not exist in Time. God can step into and out of Time. But God does not exist in the dimension of Time. If you remove Time then guess what happens... There is no beginning or end. Remember something: Our brains cannot comprehend anything outside of Time. Time is a creation, and our brains our products of TIME. There is no way for us to think outside of time. This is why we have problems understanding how something can be eternal, "alpha and omega" first and last, never-ending never-beginning. But we can understand this concept: Remove time and there is no TIME. No beginning, no end.

I will also prove why the existence of God is Logically necessary:

How can we live on earth? Random Chance? ok. I would accept that. But how can we have a galaxy. Random Chance? ok. How can we have a universe... big bang? hmm. ok... where did that come from?.... How can we have existence?... hmm.... existence.... where did that come from? Where did our universe come from? If it was a big bang, what could have possibly caused that? Some type of energy, maybe? How did that energy get there? There has to be a beginning point. The only possible way for us to have existence is for existence to be put here by something eternal. You see, that ends the infinite paradox of "where did that come from? then where did that come from? then where did that come from? then where did that come from? If you equate the existence of the universe to a stack of coins, then the question arises: "What is the bottom coin that is holding everything else up?" Thus the bottom coin HAS to be eternal and constant because if it wasnt always there, then the rest of the coins would have never been able to stack on top of the first "Super Coin" that is holding everything else up. Secondly, the rest of the coins are (metaphorically: "us") obviously non-eternal, and have a beginning and an end. This means that the "Super Coin" had to have been able to duplicate itself in some (lesser) way and create an enviroment (a place of existence) for the rest of the coins to stack on top of itself.

anyways, perhaps some of this was unecessary, but it is truth. i hope you guys can use this information to refute athiesm and anti-theism wish is actually reletively easy for the properly informed to do. God Bless and have fun.

I would be interested to hear your retorts. Please, i don't want to hear any personal attacks. Just logical, freindly arguements against the material i have put forth here. thank you.

 

[Nebuchadnezzaar]

there is no way to win an argument against an athiest, nor is there any way to win an argument against a theist.

Both standpoints in a sense represent different versions of people's religions. There is no one religion for everyone, it is different for everybody.

Some people believe in God, some believe in something similar that has nothing to do with the bible, some incorperate science and evolution into their religions, some do not. Other people believe in buddha and some people don't believe in anything. Even more alarming some people are waiting for God to appear and on that day they say they will believe, some say even if a God does show it's face they will still refuse to believe.

It doesn't matter what you believe in, Just that you believe in something and through that belief you develop a set of values or morals by which you live.

The only way to know if there is a God or not, is to talk to other people honestly about your own personal experiences with God, not theories about why It must exist etc. People will only be persuaded by feeling like this is a planet built by a wise and merciful and beautiful God whoes presence can be felt. This is hard but not impossible.

 

[Allahs_Mathematics]

God created time. God does not exist in Time. God can step into and out of Time. But God does not exist in the dimension of Time. If you remove Time then guess what happens... There is no beginning or end. Remember something: Our brains cannot comprehend anything outside of Time. Time is a creation, and our brains our products of TIME. There is no way for us to think outside of time. This is why we have problems understanding how something can be eternal, "alpha and omega" first and last, never-ending never-beginning. But we can understand this concept: Remove time and there is no TIME. No beginning, no end.

I agree , God is not dependant of time since time is His own creation . Now u say our brains cant coprehend eternity because our brains are product of time . I dont agree , and I have whitnissed myself it isnt so . As an uncosncious creature perhaps you indeed are subject to time , consciousness can show the possibility of the porigins of time , whitch lies in the brain itself . Just as God creates time , so do I . The thing is I am not God , so I do not know it . But i can know it , I can become God and exist independant of time , since time is nothing more than my own product so that I can establish relations between the states that I am in (before-during-after) . As long as I depends on these stages , I cannot understand eternity . But many people have created a state of mind that exists independant of time , that looks as time passes by with the speed God wishes the time to have gone by . Perhaps we see this people that they to die , or are subject to time . But we seem to forget that we rason from out own time-bonded perspective ourselves . Combine this knowledge with the purpose of psychology (repression of intelligence in purpose of survival) , and you might see my point why we cant allow our brain to look at a man and see him fly or turning inside out etc etc...all those "scientific" things that are not possible . Who created science , was that not God ?

How can we live on earth? Random Chance? ok. I would accept that. But how can we have a galaxy. Random Chance? ok. How can we have a universe... big bang? hmm. ok... where did that come from?.... How can we have existence?... hmm.... existence.... where did that come from? Where did our universe come from? If it was a big bang, what could have possibly caused that? Some type of energy, maybe? How did that energy get there? There has to be a beginning point. The only possible way for us to have existence is for existence to be put here by something eternal. You see, that ends the infinite paradox of "where did that come from? then where did that come from? then where did that come from? then where did that come from? If you equate the existence of the universe to a stack of coins, then the question arises: "What is the bottom coin that is holding everything else up?" Thus the bottom coin HAS to be eternal and constant because if it wasnt always there, then the rest of the coins would have never been able to stack on top of the first "Super Coin" that is holding everything else up. Secondly, the rest of the coins are (metaphorically: "us") obviously non-eternal, and have a beginning and an end. This means that the "Super Coin" had to have been able to duplicate itself in some (lesser) way and create an enviroment (a place of existence) for the rest of the coins to stack on top of itself.

I agree with this unmoved mover theory , to my knowledge as far as I can coprehend , there are 2 possibilities . 1 , It is us who is subject to the galaxy/universe etc , just like we imagine animals who are unconscious to be . Ofcourse something would be in that sense necesarry to make things move , to create the perfect cipher , to close the deal . Calling that God is great , but i dont see why ? As far as I know God is considered to be a superior being , not a superior force (like the sun/wind/gravity etc) . To conclude there is a force that creates logic into all these independant and coincident seeming systems , i agree .

But again something is being forgotten , how the fuck do we know about the universe etc , does not everything come through our own mind ? Are we not the ones creating universe through our brains , perhaps we are the ones creating animals and everything else to make it seem independent , we can never know from outside our brain . That is why i would consider the other possibility of God , a possibility that DOES go with all the religions , scriptures etc...the God in person . To Me I am God , I create my sight , I create everything else I "perceive" , I create emotions I create thoughts , I create physics , logics , mathematics , I create everything .

Its either Nihilism with a touch of Tao , or its just Me .

Thats all I can make of it , for now .

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
I will also prove why the existence of God is Logically necessary: ...

You do absolutely nothing but pay homage to the God-of-the-Gaps. Given an unanswered question, you pretend that the answer "God" has more information content than does "I don't know". Try again ...

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

Absolutely spot on consequentA.
"filling gaps with gods"- I like that and it is exactly whats going on here.
Religious types notice atheists have the answers to alot of things but when they find something there is not an answer for they say "well if you guys are so smart then how come such and such? Aha! God!"
Well what the hell is that?
I am more than comfortable to say "I don't know" or "it is not known" about a hell of a lot of things. I'm not surprised at all that there are things we humans don't know and I wouldn't be surprised if there were things we will never know. Humans are just an animal that very recently developed the means to think about things. Why would we know how the universe started? We are a little dirty organism on one of the universe's rocks.
The fact we don't know something gives no more credibility to the concept of god than it does to the concept of the universe being a single molecule in the fecal matter of a giant donkey.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.

-- Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man (1871)

 

[KenshiSoro]

Re: Re: Proof of the existence of God through logic

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
You do absolutely nothing but pay homage to the God-of-the-Gaps. Given an unanswered question, you pretend that the answer "God" has more information content than does "I don't know". Try again ...

ok, where is your retort? your reply makes no sense. maybe i am too dumb. could you restate your post simply enough to where a kindergartner could understand? where is your use of logic to refute me? all you have done is acknowledged the God-of-the-Gaps so you are no longer an Atheist!

 

[KenshiSoro]

Again, it is incomprehensible that our universe "just appeared" here one day. You see, this is more than just a God-of-the-Gaps. It is only possible that something eternal sparked our beginning. You put more "faith" in your God (science) than i do may have in mine (the creator). But of course, the atheist mind must not be capable of such philosophically and logically deep thinking. This, eternal entity is what we call God. Now that we have established a God we ask, "How can we learn more about him?" Well he has revealed himself to mankind through those who seek him. You see, Atheism, and Anti-theism are logically and philosophically absurd. Atheism is a fairy tale for adults to escape the reality that there is a God, there is a judgement and we will be judged accordingly to our deeds. Lets say that the God-of-the-Gaps is some technology, or even a natural occurance somehow. a never ending paradox. you must understand that nomatter how much science can develope, it doesnt have all the answers. there is no paradox. the only way to solve this answer is with a creator.

now, can i have an actual rebuttle? (you see, you have been successful at criticizing my arguement above, yes. But you have not even come close to debunking it.)

 

[KenshiSoro]

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
The fact we don't know something gives no more credibility to the concept of god than it does to the concept of the universe being a single molecule in the fecal matter of a giant donkey. [/B]

interesting, but there is more evidence than this, you see i am merely scratching the surface with showing us what we DONT know. you see, i am establishing what we DONT know and you agree with me that we DONT know so now you are forced to become agnostic. Ahh, yes.

I shall now Refute Athiesm.

Here is an age old arguement. Have you ever been to brazil? I will assume no. Is it possible that God lives in brazil? For anybody reading this. If you have never been to brazil, even if you dont believe in God you have to say YES. So now everybody reading this is an agnostic. you see, in the sphere of your own personal experience you have not found God. Allow me to equate this example to your sphere of experience:

i will use a box instead of wasting my time mapping out a sphere.

----------------- .............................B
l----------------l
l-------0-------l
l----------------l
l----------------l ...........A
-----------------

This box is the matrix of your own personal experience. The 0 represents you. Is it possible that God exists at site "B"? is it possible that God exists at site "A"?

Welcome to agnosticism.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Re: Re: Re: Proof of the existence of God through logic

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
all you have done is acknowledged the God-of-the-Gaps so you are no longer an Atheist!

Rubbish. What I said was: "You do absolutely nothing but pay homage to the God-of-the-Gaps." You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

 

[pragmathen]

Wow, you got me ...

In one fell swoop, Atheism is swept under the carpet! Amazing skills to be sure.

Have you ever been to brazil?

You're right, <b>KenshiSoro</b>. It's very likely, almost certain that God resides in Brazil. How could he not?

Moreover, how can we be sure that one of us is not God? One of us posters <i>could</i>, in fact, be God. Imagine that. Think of the ramifications of that statement. C'mon fess up. Fill in the gaps, so to speak &lt;elbows KenshiSoro in the ribs in a friendly way&gt; about what's going on here, and why you're so obsessed with talking only through President Bush.

Well, whoever here claims to be God, one thing's for sure: you're probably living in Brazil.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
Again, it is incomprehensible that our universe "just appeared" here one day.

No, it is currently incomprehensible to you. It is clearly "comprehended" by such things a M-Theory.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by KenshiSoro

I shall now Refute Athiesm. ... Is it possible that God exists at site "B"? is it possible that God exists at site "A"?

Welcome to agnosticism.

No. That's equivalent to refuting grapefruit by proclaiming the viability of summer squash. You're really not very good at this stuff.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Re: Wow, you got me ...

Originally posted by pragmathen
It's very likely, almost certain that God resides in Brazil. How could he not?

Damn! No wonder I'm an atheist! I've never been to Brazil.

 

[KenshiSoro]

Quoting: "Allahs_Mathmatics"
But again something is being forgotten , how the fuck do we know about the universe etc , does not everything come through our own mind ? Are we not the ones creating universe through our brains , perhaps we are the ones creating animals and everything else to make it seem independent , we can never know from outside our brain . That is why i would consider the other possibility of God , a possibility that DOES go with all the religions , scriptures etc...the God in person . To Me I am God , I create my sight , I create everything else I "perceive" , I create emotions I create thoughts , I create physics , logics , mathematics , I create everything .

Its either Nihilism with a touch of Tao , or its just Me .

Thats all I can make of it , for now .

So, where is the nearest scientology service? Oh i forgot, they "are'nt a religion". lol sorry if i sound shrewed. Let me reintegrate. I have heard your opinion before, but you see, you are subjective to your enviroment, you are mortal, your will is rarely accomplished in its entirety. This cannot describe God characteristics in you. I understand your point, but remember, you dont create what you see, you see what is created. You dont (in a sense) create your emotions (not of your own cognative will) but you see your emotions are subjective to your enviroment. If you disagree, then what would happen if your most beloved died today? you would be distraught. You create your own logic. But you dont create what is generally accepted as logic. You create physics (to a degree) but you are subjective to the laws of REAL physics. You see we are subjective to everthing. we are mortal. In a sense you are God of your destiny, but then again, fortune favors the few.

If we created our own reality logic would tell us that we would have alot more freakish anomolies in our world. With as many psychopathic denizens of earth it can be safe to say that there should be a more twisted and altered reality. In fact, the laws of our physics shouldnt even be constant, because our human minds are never constant. Want to disprove me? Try to focus on one thought for more than 5 minutes before you attempt.

There goes new age scientology....down the toilet.

 

[KenshiSoro]

consequentatheist said:

No. That's equivalent to refuting grapefruit by proclaiming the viability of summer squash. You're really not very good at this stuff.

that doesnt make sense but ok.

BUT......know what? i cant help but to laugh cause your posts are actually funny. lol. could you take the brazil thing a bit more seriously? lol.

Make fun all you want though. its true. You CANNOT be athiest.
you see? you see? IT CANNOT BE REFUTED. HAHAHA.

:m: is thiswhat your smoking?

 

[KenshiSoro]

i gotta say though, you guys are tougher than your regular athiests. STOP GIVING ME PROBLEMS ARRGH.


well, at least consequentathies is.... Bah

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
I shall now Refute Athiesm. ... Is it possible that God exists at site "B"? is it possible that God exists at site "A"? Welcome to agnosticism.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
No. That's equivalent to refuting grapefruit by proclaiming the viability of summer squash. You're really not very good at this stuff.

Originally posted by KenshiSoro
that doesnt make sense but ok.

Were you not claiming to "Refute Atheism" by asserting the viability of agnosticism?

 

[SnakeLord]

Make fun all you want though. its true. You CANNOT be athiest.
you see? you see? IT CANNOT BE REFUTED. HAHAHA

Make fun all you want though. It's true. You CANNOT be religious. You see? You see? IT CANNOT BE PROVEN. HAHAHA

This leaves the conclusion: Religious people are twerps, athiests are twerps, agnostics are on the ball.

As i've always said: "it's a might be, might not be" scenario.

 

[Alpha]

ok, where is your retort? your reply makes no sense. maybe i am too dumb. could you restate your post simply enough to where a kindergartner could understand? where is your use of logic to refute me? all you have done is acknowledged the God-of-the-Gaps so you are no longer an Atheist!

You missed his point. He's saying that these unknown things you're explaining with the theory of god can be explained without god, and there's no reason to believe god is the correct solution because there's no evidence.

Again, it is incomprehensible that our universe "just appeared" here one day.

Why's that? Things appear out of nothing all the time. There's a theory that the universe was created from nothing, borrowing energy from nothing just like what happens in the vacuum of space to create particle pairs.

It is only possible that something eternal sparked our beginning.

Why's that? "Eternal" means existing through all time, I assume you meant outside of time. Still, why?

You put more "faith" in your God (science) than i do may have in mine (the creator).

This is laughable. Science does not rely on faith, religion does.

But of course, the atheist mind must not be capable of such philosophically and logically deep thinking.

This actually got me laughing.

This, eternal entity is what we call God. Now that we have established a God we ask, "How can we learn more about him?"

We have not established a god yet.

Well he has revealed himself to mankind through those who seek him.

I don't think so. Many people see what they want to see, and sometimes no amount of convincing will change their mind.

You see, Atheism, and Anti-theism are logically and philosophically absurd.

I disagree.

Atheism is a fairy tale for adults to escape the reality that there is a God, there is a judgement and we will be judged accordingly to our deeds.

I, and many others probably judge themselves more harshly than god would.

Lets say that the God-of-the-Gaps is some technology, or even a natural occurance somehow.

Now this statement is absurd. I contend that it is the religious mind who must not be capable of logically deep thinking (at least in this case).

you must understand that nomatter how much science can develope, it doesnt have all the answers. there is no paradox. the only way to solve this answer is with a creator.

Says who? Science can never give us all the answers? I agree one cannot gain omniscience through science, but one could potentially gain a complete understanding of the universe and how it works though, because the universe is logically coherent and self consistent. There's no reason it can't be understood.

now, can i have an actual rebuttle?

Can we?

I shall now Refute Athiesm.

Fat chance.

Here is an age old arguement. Have you ever been to brazil? I will assume no. Is it possible that God lives in brazil? For anybody reading this. If you have never been to brazil, even if you dont believe in God you have to say YES.

Even if I don't believe in god? I think not. I've never been to Brazil, but even so I still know there are no square circles there because the concept is impossible. If it can be shown god does not exist, then obviously he's not in Brazil, whether I've been there or not.
This is, once again, the logical fallacy of thinking you cannot prove a universal negative.