All over the world, there are stories similar to the fall in the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel, and the flood. I am not surprised at all, but I do not think that this compromises the truth of the Bible. Which I believe is infallible.
Prometheus as The Serpent?
- Thread starter one_raven
- Start date
All over the world, there are stories similar to the fall in the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel, and the flood. I am not surprised at all, but I do not think that this compromises the truth of the Bible. Which I believe is infallible.
I need to check that out.
Thanks
Interesting line of thought...
Here I argue that the Biblical creation story could be an allegory for man grasping self-determination and here I try to explore the apparent awakening of mankind at about 600 BCE.
These are steps toward self-realization and the death of Gods.
I have long wondered about the apparent correlations between the development of a person and the development of mankind - the Tanakh seeming to outline or trace or reflect both.
Born dependent upon those more powerful than you - learn - regognize the limitations of those you depend on and gain strength enough to rebel, while still remaining dependent - test yourself and those who care for you to find and push limits - break away fully - find your own way in the world and learn for yourself through experimentation, success and failure - find self-realization.
The creation story should seem very familiar to every parent.
I said in another discussion here: (typos fixed)
Children get every need met by their parents. Food, shelter, love, language...
If a child has even reasonably apt parents, the child will see those parents as infallible providers and protectors and all-knowing sages.
At some point, a child will discover that those parents are just people.
Exactly when and how that happens will have a profound effect on the person.
Often times that happens at about the same time the child is becoming self-aware and gathering insecurities.
Insecurites, fears, self-awareness and recognition of mortality is a powerful mix and will drive many people to look for that one perfect thing - the rock to depend on in a shaky world.
With proof that mom and dad are just human like you, gods fill that void quite nicely.
Gods, for most people, can't disappoint you.
If you scrutinize them, they may.
If you are introduced to other points of view they may.
If you depend on them to readily they may.
When they do, who you have become up to that point in life will largely dictate what your response will be.
Perhaps to fully self-realize, we must kill our Gods.
I am certain that The Bible takes stories from elsewhere - that does not necessarily imply that it is compromised at all.
A history book put out this year will include last year's history.
The earlier Sumerian deluge and creation myths/stories being echoed in The Bible don't suggest it is not true, it just implies that the Sumerians believed it before Abraham did and suggests where his beliefs came from (as he was Sumerian).
Calling The Bible infallible is rather silly, in my opinon, however, because there have been countless revisions and are currently many, many different versions.
It took hundred of years to even decide which books belong in The Bible and which do not. Not even everyone in First Ecumenical Council agreed - many of them argued that the Tanakh shouldn't even be included.
Which is infallible?
If the word of God and the words of the Prophets were infallible, we can't even be sure what they were because man is NOT infallible nor incorruptible.
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Pandaemoni
Valued Senior Member
I think the easier answer is that the whole story is allegorical (an dthe original authors really did not associate the snake with Satan, with it just being a later allegorical gloss. Again, it is a Jewish book, and they see Satan as a faithful servant. If the whole story is allegory, than adding a new allegory to it by introducing the Christian character of Satan isn't at all invalid.
It's only when you interpret it literally that the snake's "real identity" takes on any importance.
I do like the part about creating enmity between snakes and women, as I can easily imagine the original author struggling to come up with a reason women are so afraid of snakes. It's an interesting aside into the territory of ancient sexism.
Maybe just take the Freudian angle and say that the women was enchanted by the power of the serpent (phallus), so she grasped for it to try and orchestrate her rise to power at the expense of man's fall, but the patriarch God saw through this ruse and punished her by keeping the phallus ever out of her reach (and Lacan would add that the phallus was also kept from man's reach, because he was proven to not be a worthy guardian, but the patriarch allowed him to think he had it (which is why he gave man a penis (they could not conceive before the punishment, remember?)) to keep the sexes at constant odds with each other) and to this day, man is the boss of woman because they both believe he has the power of the phallus, when the real boss is the serpent (man and woman's evil obsession with power).
Yes, I do believe the Bible contains stories previously written down. Although I still do believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Written down by man, but inspired by God. I'm almost sure you think I'm a fool for this. Then again I'm sure a lot of the people on this forum think that I'm an idiot.
The question is which Bible?
Which revision of which version?
What about the Apocrypha?
Who is it that should decide which books belong?
Are you Christian? If so, I assume you must believe that Jesus was the last prophet (unless you are LDS, of course). Am I correct? If that's the case, what mortal man has the insight to decide what should and should not be a part of The Bible? Most (if not all) of what is generally considered "The New Testament" did not even exist until after Jesus' death. Are you saying that God spoke to the apostles? If so, Jesus was not the last prophet, was he?
Do you realize that "The Bible" is not only not a book (it's a collection of writings, letters and accounts) but it is not even agreed which of these writings, letters and accounts belong as part of this collection?
Even within the Catholic Church - who decided upon the first Bible - it was not agreed which of these writings should be included in the collection.
I don't think you are an idiot for believing that The Bible is the word of God, but I think you are foolish if you believe that without even knowing what The Bibe is and the history of it. Without investigating the failings of man, to take his words as gospel is painfully foolish.
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zetetic0void
Registered Member
Something I think about in relation to the story of the Garden of Eden is that 'woman' was shown as the one who was more directly (ie, initially) involved with the Fruit of Knowledge (I still think it is knowledge and not just of good and evil ... but that's another debate).
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Women's role in language/ writing?
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It is said that within early human groups, females worked in groups and gathered plants, herbs and other needed things (probably insects too). In that environment, they communicated with each other as they worked whereas males were off trying to hunt for animals and no doubt not vocalizing as much with each other as this would cause animals to detect them.
Anyway, the idea that women had more to do with originating language or refining language is something I have read about.
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Egyptian Seshat as Eve?
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One of the oldest Egyptian goddesses was Seshat. She was the goddess of knowledge wisdom, and writing and was a record keeper and scribe and was said to have invented writing.
Perhaps this is based on the hidden realization that women had more of a hand in refining communication and possibly more to do with writing very early on in humanity.
So is the fact (within the confines of that story which in my opinion is symbolic and not historical) that Eve is the first one involved in humans' reception of knowledge (the fruit) a signal of the actual historical role from tens of thousands of years past? *
h t t p : // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seshat
My post is a bit off topic as it appears to have nothing to do with Prometheus.
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* (personally, I have some feelings that humanity and complex civilization may go back a lot further than what is generally believed. Some main points are the seemingly rain-water induced weathering on the sides of the Sphinx in Egypt meaning that was actually before 10500 BC. In my opinion, there appears to be signs from many cultures of an intense flood - although I do not know yet whether those were unrelated local situations or referring to a massive world-wide occurrence - and possibly sign of a cometary impact that destroyed previous advanced civilization [I also have a hunch that the general historical feeling of seeing comets as bad omens may stem to an almost forgotten cultural remembrance of a catastrophe, but that's just a guess]. Whether any symbols of women as being involved with writing and recording knowledge stem from the newer situation after such catastrophe or far before in the very distant past before the rise of previous advanced civilizations which also had that in their myths , I do not know.)
---------------------------------
Women's role in language/ writing?
---------------------------------
It is said that within early human groups, females worked in groups and gathered plants, herbs and other needed things (probably insects too). In that environment, they communicated with each other as they worked whereas males were off trying to hunt for animals and no doubt not vocalizing as much with each other as this would cause animals to detect them.
Anyway, the idea that women had more to do with originating language or refining language is something I have read about.
------------------------
Egyptian Seshat as Eve?
------------------------
One of the oldest Egyptian goddesses was Seshat. She was the goddess of knowledge wisdom, and writing and was a record keeper and scribe and was said to have invented writing.
Perhaps this is based on the hidden realization that women had more of a hand in refining communication and possibly more to do with writing very early on in humanity.
So is the fact (within the confines of that story which in my opinion is symbolic and not historical) that Eve is the first one involved in humans' reception of knowledge (the fruit) a signal of the actual historical role from tens of thousands of years past? *
h t t p : // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seshat
My post is a bit off topic as it appears to have nothing to do with Prometheus.
---------------
* (personally, I have some feelings that humanity and complex civilization may go back a lot further than what is generally believed. Some main points are the seemingly rain-water induced weathering on the sides of the Sphinx in Egypt meaning that was actually before 10500 BC. In my opinion, there appears to be signs from many cultures of an intense flood - although I do not know yet whether those were unrelated local situations or referring to a massive world-wide occurrence - and possibly sign of a cometary impact that destroyed previous advanced civilization [I also have a hunch that the general historical feeling of seeing comets as bad omens may stem to an almost forgotten cultural remembrance of a catastrophe, but that's just a guess]. Whether any symbols of women as being involved with writing and recording knowledge stem from the newer situation after such catastrophe or far before in the very distant past before the rise of previous advanced civilizations which also had that in their myths , I do not know.)
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This is about the creation stories.
What makes you think that?
Is there any evidence pointing to that, or is it just a hunch/desire for it to be true?
zetetic0void
Registered Member
What I meant was that in the story it is Eve who is first is intruduced to the Fruit of Knowledge (of 'good and evil' ... or of 'both good and evil' and inclusive of all things from their extremes and all shades between ... so basically of just 'knowledge' ... depending on how you think that should be interpreted).
So perhaps what I said wasn't clear because what you quoted was just relating how the story of Eden says Eve was the first who encountered the Fruit.
So if the Fruit is knowledge (which I see Prometheus's fire as being a symbol of), then having her encounter it first could symbolize the general idea (or a vague cultural rememberance) of women being more connected with originating language and writing.
Hmmm...
I'm not so sure about that.
It seems to me that eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would be them determining for themselves what is right and wrong - determining their own morality.
God's response to them seems to be to be one of, "OK, you don't need me anymore to tell you what to do? You can decide for yourself? Go out in the world and make it on your own then."
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=65570
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M*W: Allegory? Yes. It is even allegory of allegory of allegory, and the allegories become confused to say the least, because they represent many different characters of myth.
The ancients associated serpents with women (goddessi), because of the serpent's alleged healing powers from the shedding of it's skin bringing a "new birth." And women, of course, are associated with birth.
It is my belief that the idea of the "original" serpent, you know, the one in the "Garden," etc., etc., (which I believe represents the zodiac), was taken from the Constellation Serpens.
According to Ian Ridpath: "In mythology, Ophiuchus was identified as the healer Asclepius, son of Apollo, although why he appears to be wrestling with a serpent in the sky is not fully explained. His connection with snakes is attributed to the story that he once killed a snake that was miraculously restored to life by a herb placed on it by another snake. Asclepius subsequently used the same technique to revive dead people. Snakes are the symbol of rebirth because they shed their skins every year."
"The Serpent Holder is actually two constellations: 1) the Serpent-Holder itself surrounded on both sides by 2) the Serpent (whose head is to the left of the Serpent Holder and is called Serpens Caput, and whose tail is to the right of the Serpent Holder, Serpens Cauda). Originally, however, the two constellations were conceived of as a single unit."
Allen says: “Of the four stellar Snakes this preeminently is the Serpent, its stars originally being combined with those of Ophiuchus, ... but it now is catalogued separately, and occasionally divided into Caput and Cauda on either side of the Serpent-holder.”
"The Serpent-Holder constellation is one of the largest, if not the most vast one, in the night sky. Perhaps it was one of the most important. If one finds it in the sky, the Serpent-Holder looks overwhelming. A further key to its importance may be its position in the night sky, for it looks as though it could be part of the zodiac."
"As stated elsewhere, the zodiac has been considered important, because the sun and planets (seem to) travel through the constellations of the zodiac, and knowledge of when certain constellations would appear on the horizon at specific times of the year provided a "calendar" by which agricultural peoples could determine planting, harvesting, etc.."
"In addition, and related to this fact, watching the sky was, in an earlier form, an important religion among certain peoples in prehistory, concerned with the zodiacal constellations, as well as the sun, planets, and moon which (from earth seem to) travel through them. Present-day astrology is a remnant of just such religions."
Rey states: "An odd thing about the Serpent-Holder is that it reaches into the zodiac, yet is not by tradition counted among the zodiacal figures, possibly because there would then be 13 constellations instead of 12." This information is extremely interesting, especially because if one looks at the ecliptic, the imaginary line through which the zodiac figures go, one finds that Aries the Ram (which is part of the zodiac) does not have even one star reaching across that line, whereas the Serpent-Holder's leg very definitely does."
"Might the Serpent-Holder not have been a 'member' of the zodiac at one time? And why would 13 constellations have been so bad? (Twelve constellations, or twelve zodiac signs, represent the twelve-month calendar, but the twelve-month calendar is not set in stone.) There are other things to consider as well about this whole problem. At one time Libra, the Scales, and Scorpio, the Scorpion, were part of one constellation, so if the Serpent Holder was in the zodiac at that time, there could still have been twelve constellations comprising the zodiac."
Barbara Walker, in her encyclopedia says: "'Eve' in Hebrew was "YHWH, yod-he-vau-he, ... from the Hebrew root HWH, meaning both 'life' and 'woman'--in Latin letters, E-V-E. With the addition of a Y (yod), it amounted to the Goddess's invocation of her own name as the Word of creation, a common idea in Egypt and other ancient lands" (288). She would thus be saying, "I, Eve," YHWH."
According to Walker, the Hebrew YHWH means 'Eve,' 'life,' and 'woman.'
According to Howey the Arabic means 'life' and 'serpent,' and in the name 'Aesculapius' are contained the concepts 'Serpent' and 'Teacher.'
Further, under 'Serpent' Walker states: "Gnostic accounts of the Eden myth used the Aramaic pun identifying Eve, the Teacher, and the Serpent: Hawah, Mother of All Living; hawa, to instruct; and hewya, Serpent. Eve's name in Arabic still combines the idea of 'life' hayyat with the name of the serpent (Hayyat)."
M*W wonders if the symbolism of the missing 13th constellation could have been the one signifying that one which was 'cast out of the Garden' (zodiac)? Could the various allegories of the constellations have been viewed in new ways by later cultures, therefore, causing all the confusion we have about it today? Who was right? Well, let's say they all were. The vision is really in the eye of the beholder, and they all gave us great myths. What we need to remember is that's what they are... myths. We need to enjoy them for what they were and still are (ancient entertainment), and not try to validate them as religious fact.
References:
Allen, Richard Hinckley: Star Names and Their Meanings. "Many theories have been propounded for the birthplace and time of formation of this; but there now seems to be general agreement of opinion that..." (more) (I'll provide a proper citation for this later.~M*W).
Howey, M. Oldfield: The Horse in Magic and Myth: A rich compilation of legend and lore from classical mythology, the Bible... ISBN13: 9780486421179 (Sorry, but I couldn't find biblio details).
H. A. Rey. Find the Constellations. Houghton Mifflin, 1954. Several revised editions, most recent edition in 1988.
Ian Ridpath and Wil Tirion (2007). Stars and Planets Guide, Collins, London. ISBN 978-0007251209. Princeton University Press, Princeton. ISBN 978-0691135564.
Walker, Barbara: The Woman’s Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1983.
*************Maybe just take the Freudian angle and say that the women was enchanted by the power of the serpent (phallus), so she grasped for it to try and orchestrate her rise to power at the expense of man's fall, but the patriarch God saw through this ruse and punished her by keeping the phallus ever out of her reach (and Lacan would add that the phallus was also kept from man's reach, because he was proven to not be a worthy guardian, but the patriarch allowed him to think he had it (which is why he gave man a penis (they could not conceive before the punishment, remember?)) to keep the sexes at constant odds with each other) and to this day, man is the boss of woman because they both believe he has the power of the phallus, when the real boss is the serpent (man and woman's evil obsession with power).
M*W: Ah, the old penis envy theme. Good try, but I think it was the other way around. Man is borne of woman and forever tries to get back in there (one way or the other).
"The liver is the only internal human organ capable of natural regeneration of lost tissue; as little as 25% of a liver can regenerate into a whole liver. A human liver is known to grow back in no less than 8 years, due to hyptochronatin cells in the remaining liver" from Wiki
This is a medical fact; you can see connection to resurrection! The question is did the ancient Greeks know about this biological process?
zetetic0void
Registered Member
"This is a medical fact; you can see connection to resurrection! The question is did the ancient Greeks know about this biological process?"
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I had read that some ancient peoples (Greeks, Romans, maybe older than the Greeks too) knew about this and possibly due to the fact that soldiers got serious injuries involving such things. Observation that the liver regrew might have stemmed from that.
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It is interesting that Prometheus is having his liver eaten by an eagle and the story of Christ had the spear stuck in what appears to be that region (at least on images I've seen). I wonder if there are older stories from older mythology that has similar connection. It could be a general idea that becomes imbedded in various forms of a similar symbolic story over time.
I've seen alchemical diagrams of the body assigning symbolic characteristics to parts of the body. Perhaps there are some clues to be found in such symbolic avenues.
The feeling of heat (from what I feel) appears to be centred around the solar plexus region and from diagrams I've seen the liver covers this region whereas the heart is further above. Perhaps peoples associated the liver with that heat and energy.
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I had read that some ancient peoples (Greeks, Romans, maybe older than the Greeks too) knew about this and possibly due to the fact that soldiers got serious injuries involving such things. Observation that the liver regrew might have stemmed from that.
-----------------
It is interesting that Prometheus is having his liver eaten by an eagle and the story of Christ had the spear stuck in what appears to be that region (at least on images I've seen). I wonder if there are older stories from older mythology that has similar connection. It could be a general idea that becomes imbedded in various forms of a similar symbolic story over time.
I've seen alchemical diagrams of the body assigning symbolic characteristics to parts of the body. Perhaps there are some clues to be found in such symbolic avenues.
The feeling of heat (from what I feel) appears to be centred around the solar plexus region and from diagrams I've seen the liver covers this region whereas the heart is further above. Perhaps peoples associated the liver with that heat and energy.