Pro-lifers, explain your perspective for me please

[visceral_instinct]

An argument I have heard on here quite a few times from the anti-abortionists is that since the woman chose to have sex, she should take responsibility and accept the consequences...and somehow, they equate 'take responsibility' with 'have the baby'.

To me this makes about as much sense as someone saying to me, 'If you mess up a manoeuvre at parkour, you should take responsibility, accept the consequences, and willingly fall on your head. Whirling around 90 degrees and landing less harmfully on your limbs is selfish, irresponsible, and a cop out.'

?

 

[lightgigantic]

The difference is that parkour is a one person game.

 

[siledre]

I definitely think abortion is a decision left to the people that created the life but if you aren't planning to have a baby then fix it so you can't, women and men need to stop being so cavalier about it, that's the simple quick fix, make it so you can't have a baby if you don't want to end up with one.

 

[visceral_instinct]

And?

Why should I choose to go through something when I don't have to - and as Lucysnow pointed out in the other thread, add another life to the world that will probably have a very rough time?

I'm not talking about late term abortions.

Wanna be a human being? Use your neocortex to think and feel, motherfucker.

 

[visceral_instinct]

I definitely think abortion is a decision left to the people that created the life but if you aren't planning to have a baby then fix it so you can't, women and men need to stop being so cavalier about it, that's the simple quick fix, make it so you can't have a baby if you don't want to end up with one.

No arguments there. I'm definitely going to get surgically sterilized.

 

[lightgigantic]

And?

Why should I choose to go through something when I don't have to -

Being in a position of responsibility doesn't necessary entail that one has to do anything

and as Lucysnow pointed out in the other thread, add another life to the world that will probably have a very rough time?

That's also a good argument for suicide but even worse since it makes the assumption that the third party would prefer to be dead

I'm not talking about late term abortions.

Why not?

Wanna be a human being? Use your neocortex to think and feel, motherfucker.

part of that process might include empathizing with the (potential) neocortex of others

 

[kira]

VI, would you ever abort a kitten fetus, if a cat could ask you? If not, why not?

 

[Doreen]

VI, would you ever abort a kitten fetus, if a cat could ask you? If not, why not?

Cats can reabsorb the fetuses. I believe it happens if there is a lot of stress, food shortages, etc.

Are these cat's murderer's?

 

[visceral_instinct]

Being in a position of responsibility doesn't necessary entail that one has to do anything

No but there's the argument that I should, and why?

That's also a good argument for suicide but even worse since it makes the assumption that the third party would prefer to be dead

I appreciate your point of view, and it is a fair point, should we bring someone into the world knowing they will have a shit time of life?

part of that process might include empathizing with the (potential) neocortex of others

I meant that if it isn't conscious, I am not killing a sentient being by having a little saline injection and pumping it out, so where's the wrongdoing?

Why not?

Well, privately I feel that no one should have to carry something in their body against their will even if it is conscious, but I can't see 3rd trimester abortions being made legal, so I will just focus on the early ones here...

 

[lightgigantic]

Cats can reabsorb the fetuses. I believe it happens if there is a lot of stress, food shortages, etc.

Are these cat's murderer's?

Does a cat have what it takes to be assigned any moral category?

 

[Doreen]

Being in a position of responsibility doesn't necessary entail that one has to do anything

Do you think the fetus does not choose where to manifest?

 

[kira]

Cats can reabsorb the fetuses. I believe it happens if there is a lot of stress, food shortages, etc.

Are these cat's murderer's?

Hmmm... that's another topic altogether. But no, they are not murderers when there were food shortages, especially because I don't think that they are equipped with enough ratio in the first place.

 

[lightgigantic]

No but there's the argument that I should, and why?

The discussion about what one should do and why is often distinct from a discussion about what one can get away with.

I appreciate your point of view, and it is a fair point, should we bring someone into the world knowing they will have a shit time of life?

If responsible parenting got as much focus as sex surcharged merchandising there probably wouldn't be a problem

I meant that if it isn't conscious, I am not killing a sentient being by having a little saline injection and pumping it out, so where's the wrongdoing?

redefining life by some arbitrary estimation of consciousness doesn't radically change things (I mean its not like a tissue lump in one's stomach can ever develop into life so its not really suave to place a fetus, embryo or zygote in the same category) ... and even after its born there are numerous little things one can do to terminate it (such as not feeding it)

Well, privately I feel that no one should have to carry something in their body against their will even if it is conscious, but I can't see 3rd trimester abortions being made legal, so I will just focus on the early ones here...

Pregnancy is not a random occurrence. It is a direct consequence of a (more often than not) willed activity

 

[lightgigantic]

Do you think the fetus does not choose where to manifest?

I don't think the fetus is in a position to make choices. In fact I don't think even a new born child is in a position to make choices of any great consequence for quite a few months or even years

 

[visceral_instinct]

The discussion about what one should do and why is often distinct from a discussion about what one can get away with...redefining life by some arbitrary estimation of consciousness doesn't radically change things (I mean its not like a tissue lump in one's stomach can ever develop into life so its not really suave to place a fetus, embryo or zygote in the same category) ... and even after its born there are numerous little things one can do to terminate it (such as not feeding it)

If it's not sentient in any way, as in no feelings, no conscious experience etc,...why do I owe it to this lump of gelatine to let it develop until it IS conscious then give birth to it? Why am I making an immoral choice if I don't?

 

[spidergoat]

They believe in a soul that is thrust into the sperm/egg combination at the moment of fertilization.

 

[lightgigantic]

If it's not sentient in any way, as in no feelings, no conscious experience etc,...why do I owe it to this lump of gelatine to let it develop until it IS conscious then give birth to it? Why am I making an immoral choice if I don't?

If you can find any old lump of gelatin that can potentially give rise to the same phenomena, you would have categorized it accurately

 

[lightgigantic]

They believe in a soul that is thrust into the sperm/egg combination at the moment of fertilization.

as opposed to believing that the phenomena of life is merely a consequence of material complexity derived from base elements?

 

[visceral_instinct]

If you can find any old lump of gelatin that can potentially give rise to the same phenomena, you would have categorized it accurately

Potentially is the main word here. It's not a being, it's something that will potentially become a being. And since it isn't a being, why am I obliged to let it become one, and give birth to it?

 

[visceral_instinct]

as opposed to believing that the phenomena of life is merely a consequence of material complexity derived from base elements?

Life doesn't mean poo A tapeworm is alive. Don't tell me I may not flush it outta my intestines???