Very cool Tiassa
Primates and the Very Ancient Roots of Religion
- Thread starter Tiassa
- Start date
Someone please explain to me what types of experiments have been done which establish the "fact" that great apes have the capacity for abstract thought and imagination.
Apparently displaying emotion, as far as I am concerned, is not enough.
Apparently displaying emotion, as far as I am concerned, is not enough.
How's that for an indefinite answer?
I think I'd have to read the book at least before I could say whether or not she made the case. Some of it seems convincing, but I am one who is predisposed to holding chimps, bonobos, chimpanzees, and such, as deserving better respect than we tend to give them.
Part of what I didn't transcribe is King's discussion of meaning-making; the whole program segment is about twelve minutes, so I urge people to listen to the discussion; it is, quite obviously, better than my transcription. So I suppose we're all left to make what we will of the idea of primates making meaning.
Of imagination, I don't think King made the case per se, but the case is possibly made in her book; I'm among those who think the case is pretty much already made. I'll pull the fatherhood bit, though, and say that because I have a daughter, I actually hope the anthropologists are overstating the case. While it is said that working with bonobos is approximately like working with a bunch of two year-old human children, discussions of primate imagination and creativity are becoming heartbreaking. King is reassuring inasmuch as she suggests certain forms of communication that we consider very human, e.g., looking into one another's eyes. But to consider what certain manifestations of creativity suggest in humans just hurts because I, for one, would not know how to reconcile the underlying lack. This is, of course, a distortion of parenthood, but the idea of a chimpanzee carefully and precisely pulling around an imaginary toy, or substituting a squirrel for a child that will never come, is a wrenching consideration.
And while some primates suggest emotional connections to one another, the question of the world at large is not one I can answer. Abstract thought, to judge by King's consideration, is more Goodall's realm; again, I cannot answer the question.
I am, however, convinced that part of what King is looking for is a path that avoids anthropomorphism; one important question, though, is whether that is possible. King's book is not listed in my local library catalog; it will be a couple weeks, probably, before I can get my hands on a copy.
(In that aspect, she was successful; I really want to read the book now.)
One Raven said:
I think I'd have to read the book at least before I could say whether or not she made the case. Some of it seems convincing, but I am one who is predisposed to holding chimps, bonobos, chimpanzees, and such, as deserving better respect than we tend to give them.
Part of what I didn't transcribe is King's discussion of meaning-making; the whole program segment is about twelve minutes, so I urge people to listen to the discussion; it is, quite obviously, better than my transcription. So I suppose we're all left to make what we will of the idea of primates making meaning.
Of imagination, I don't think King made the case per se, but the case is possibly made in her book; I'm among those who think the case is pretty much already made. I'll pull the fatherhood bit, though, and say that because I have a daughter, I actually hope the anthropologists are overstating the case. While it is said that working with bonobos is approximately like working with a bunch of two year-old human children, discussions of primate imagination and creativity are becoming heartbreaking. King is reassuring inasmuch as she suggests certain forms of communication that we consider very human, e.g., looking into one another's eyes. But to consider what certain manifestations of creativity suggest in humans just hurts because I, for one, would not know how to reconcile the underlying lack. This is, of course, a distortion of parenthood, but the idea of a chimpanzee carefully and precisely pulling around an imaginary toy, or substituting a squirrel for a child that will never come, is a wrenching consideration.
And while some primates suggest emotional connections to one another, the question of the world at large is not one I can answer. Abstract thought, to judge by King's consideration, is more Goodall's realm; again, I cannot answer the question.
I am, however, convinced that part of what King is looking for is a path that avoids anthropomorphism; one important question, though, is whether that is possible. King's book is not listed in my local library catalog; it will be a couple weeks, probably, before I can get my hands on a copy.
(In that aspect, she was successful; I really want to read the book now.)
Stretched
Thank ye. I thought about reserving it for my blog, but ... well, it's one of those complicated head games, you know? Posting here, I have all the prompting I need; posting on a blog, I've been feeling the need to establish a context and justification for the issue at hand. That's left me feeling clumsy, and is a bit of a buzzkill. And some of it, I suppose, is flat laziness; once I realized I had more than a "Hey, listen to this" piece, I didn't feel like going back and pulling the tags. So as I consider it, the opener will probably hit the blog in a much-revised form after I get hold of King's book and figure out a little more about her thesis and approach. In the meantime, I must confess my basic assertions about religion and God are destabilized by such considerations.
Thank ye. I thought about reserving it for my blog, but ... well, it's one of those complicated head games, you know? Posting here, I have all the prompting I need; posting on a blog, I've been feeling the need to establish a context and justification for the issue at hand. That's left me feeling clumsy, and is a bit of a buzzkill. And some of it, I suppose, is flat laziness; once I realized I had more than a "Hey, listen to this" piece, I didn't feel like going back and pulling the tags. So as I consider it, the opener will probably hit the blog in a much-revised form after I get hold of King's book and figure out a little more about her thesis and approach. In the meantime, I must confess my basic assertions about religion and God are destabilized by such considerations.