Present copywrite laws are insane and stifle innovation ... Discuss

I just think we have to balance whats best for the artist/creator and for society and innovation as a whole. As an artist, im not going to sit on my laurels because I had 1 success that people are willing to pay for till the end of time. I create because I'm driven to create, payment is a bonus (a necessary one but not the reason I do what I do). I truely don't want to own my ideas forever because, as i said previously, future discoverys are based on the present and past ones, infinite ownership would only hinder the creators of the future. No one wins. There are all kinds of ways to provide for ones family without passing down a copywrite forever.

ill go to my first point starting this thread. 14 years (the original copywrite length) is a long time, make some cash and then your idea/creation/invention joins Shakespear and Beethoven in the public domain. That is a good balance to me.
 
Elbaz , you said - "If an executive wants to make a buck off of it, they don't do it by controlling my thoughts. They do it by offering something special in the form of a medium"

This is a good pt. I use p2p often, infact I recently downloaded "Nemesis" (please no star trek jokes) and two weeks later I bought the DVD because I love the extra content. I must have 200 dvd's by now, i ownly owned 2 vhs tapes on the otherhand because they could offer nothing more. I love the comentaries, "the making of", storyboards, etc. Also the version i got off p2p was at such low resolution I could barely distinguish what was going on half the time. Lord of the Rings is another example, I liked the movie a lot but the dvd was a masterpiece. They got paid in the long run despite the fact i saw them first on-line because they added value to thier product.

sorry im getting a little off the thread topic but the point you made is something ive been thinking alot about lately.
 
Copyrights are designed to help both the creator and society. The creator gets exclusive use for a given period of time plus renewal/s. That benefits him.

The protection runs out after the renewal/s expire, letting others use/make the product without restriction. That benefits society.

I hope those who don't think copyrights should be as long as they are will give up their salary after the same amount of time and work for free. For the betterment of society, of course.
 
Originally posted by hipopalorum
I hope those who don't think copyrights should be as long as they are will give up their salary after the same amount of time and work for free. For the betterment of society, of course.
Of course I am. Having 1 good idea does not give me the right to sit on my ass for the rest of my life. 14-20 years is PLENTY of time to make money off of innovations (medicine being a possible exception).
 
Persol-

If you have an idea that you think would help society you are free to let others use it free of charge. Don't you think others have a right to decide how to use their own idea?
 
No, this is not a natural right. Once you share an idea, you are effectively giving it too them. Your only 'right' is to decide if you want to let others in on the idea.

Copyright/patent law extends you rights to control your idea after you release it. However, there is no reason for the terms to be as long as they are. The laws are there to benefit society, and currently do not do that. Nobody should have the right to take an idea, and basically shelve it because they happened to be the first to think of it. Ideas are not like standard property.

If you have house, and I want one, I can always build my own. If you have an idea, and I want to use it, I can not just create my own... because the use of my idea would be close enough to yours that the orginal 'creator' still has all the power under current law.
 
What are the differences between "rights" and "natural rights"?

What if the wheel was not invented yet and I invented it but hid it and only my family and I used it. No one else even knew about it. Then somehow, maybe thru a break-in, others found out about it. Now that the secret is out, should I be forced to give it up to the rest of the world?
 
After someone else discovers the wheel, you should have no right to regulate their use of it. You should however have a right to keep the wheel you made.
The method they used to obtain the knowledge is a different point, and we have laws that deal with that.
 
Originally posted by hipopalorum
I hope those who don't think copyrights should be as long as they are will give up their salary after the same amount of time and work for free. For the betterment of society, of course.

ahh a sense of perspective.
i gotta confess this thread irritates me. anytime i hear talk of taking what is mine i wanna put up the barricades, boobytrap the yard and stand guard with my shotgun. come get some, fuckers!
 
Originally posted by Persol
The point is that giving the author more then 20 years to make money off the song is just silly. It doesn't benefit society

And why should it benefit society? What obligation does an artist have to the idea of society?

From thought to brush on canvas to finished work of art, at what point does anyone else in all the world have any claim to a peice of art, other than the artist who made it? Copyright terms should be indefinate, and should be treated as a part of the estate after death.

Nobody has any more right to something which someone else has created in whole, other than the rights that the creator is willing to allow them. It's amazing how many people turn into communists when it comes to the issues of art or technology.

If you think that when an artist composes a song, that that work belongs to everyone for whatever flawed reason, and you are against people making money off of what they have created, if you are anti-copyright, you are anti-property, and anti-artist or anti-scientist.

If you tell an artist that what he creates does not belong to him, then guess what artists aren't going to share their work with other people. They'll make less of it, because there's less insentive, and they'll have to waste more time with day jobs, but when they do create something of beauty, well, guess what, they just aren't going to share it with you pricks who want to say that somehow it belongs to you, too.

Copyrights protect artists rights to their own work, that protection is something which should never expire.
 
Originally posted by tablariddim
As I understand it, copyright lasts for 50 years after the CR holder's death.

This depends on your nation of origin. There are no real international copyright laws. A few treaties between a few nations, as I understand, but no universal copyright law.
 
Originally posted by Persol
Having 1 good idea does not give me the right to sit on my ass for the rest of my life.

If enough people are still willing to pay for your work, then yes, actually it does give you the right to sit on your ass and collect money from it for the rest of your life. Don't Ignore Objective reality.

If you want to make your work open to the public, and don't have aspirations of making it your livelihood, or even just a way to get a little money on the side, then you have that right, but don't try to force everyone to give up the rights to what they have produced.
 
Pareto efficiency and copyrights.

The problem with copyrights is that they prevent copyrighted material from being priced at marginal cost, so called Pareto efficiency. One of my pet issues. I quote the description of the problem and solution from my book,

Exact Morality for Today :

"Another problem that our economy has concerns items practically all of whose cost of production lies in the first item. Nowadays, there are an increasingly large number of items (as measured by their value) in this category. It may, for instance, cost Microsoft many millions of dollars to produce a new computer program. But clearly, once the program has been made, it is trivial for Microsoft (or anybody else) to produce a great many copies of the program, all of which are of the same high quality as the first unit of software. The same applies to copies of movies—it is very expensive to make a movie, not very expensive to make a copy of one, say by VCR. Similarly, it costs society no more for an individual to be able to receive a pay-cable channel than to not be able to receive it (provided the cable is already hooked-up). Even with items that do have a substantial cost of production, as with automobiles, medicine, electronic and computer equipment, and books, still a great deal of the cost goes in the development of the item, and as a result the first item produced is going to be much more costly to produce than the later items. Now, idealistically, an item should in some sense be produced precisely when people are willing to pay for it more than what it costs society to produce another of the item. Accordingly, the price of the item should be what it costs society to produce another of the item (the marginal cost of the item, to use economic lingo). But there is no way in a standard capitalist economy that items which have enormous initial cost but little or no marginal cost are going to be able to be priced at marginal cost for the simple reason that any company that developed and produced such items would lose a great deal of money if it sold them at the very low marginal cost of producing the item. Accordingly, the government gives copyrights, patents, etc,. to restrict competition so that it can be profitable for a company to produce such items. This is such a fact of life that people lose sight of how much better it would be if everything could be priced at marginal cost. For instance, anyone who has a computer could have essentially free access to any software in existence, and anyone with a cable could see all popular movies for practically nothing, and could buy copies for practically nothing of all the others. And all the complicated electronic equipment that helps make modern life interesting, although it would not be free, yet surely its price would be negligible in comparison to what one currently encounters.

The simplest approach allowing the pricing of items with low marginal cost at that cost is to involve the government more in the production of such items. If the government produced such items, they could very easily sell them at marginal cost without going broke, merely because they have the power to levy taxes. This, of course, is socialism, which unfortunately in this country people tend to be prejudiced against because for so many years our chief competitor (the USSR) was socialist, and the powers in this country that make money by overpricing have naturally done all they can to nurture an anti-Communist hysteria that identifies socialism with evil. The Soviet government indeed was less than desirable; however, I would argue that such undesirability stems not from its having been socialist, but rather from its having been undemocratic and totalitarian. What a great many people in this country don’t seem to get is that although the government here may have its problems (as in the tendency of big money to control elections), the government is still elected by the people. Corporations, on the other hand, are controlled by a handful of rich people. Accordingly, it stands to reason that in this country, policies that give power to the government as opposed to corporations are likely to increase the freedom of society and its accountability to the wishes of the people as opposed to the wishes of a privileged few.

Another approach that would give similar results, and which might be more palatable to business interests (and hence more of a possibility), is to subsidize businesses. Government could simply give subsidies to those corporations who price their production at below marginal cost. The difficulty as is of this method is that it gives businesses very strong incentives to engage in a good deal of nefarious activity in the attempt to influence politicians. And the bribery, intimidation, and misinformation that corporations will engage in to get funds will likely be very difficult to stop inasmuch as corporations are not accountable to the voter, but only to the courts, who of course require a much higher standard of proof before meting out punishment. There is, however, a way of ensuring that subsidies reflect the wishes of the people as a whole which would make direct government subsidy of business very workable. The key, I think, is to let people vote directly on how much money should go to which corporations. In the computer age, such complex voting is now very workable. Now, without care in designing the voting system, there would be the problem that people would vote in their self-interest; for instance, they would set up dummy corporations of which they alone are the owners and would naturally vote that these self-owned corporations should receive all the subsidy. This difficulty could quite easily be resolved, however, by the trick of punishing monetarily those voters whose subsidy distribution is weird. At first sight, this approach seems obnoxious in that it would seem to punish weirdness (which tends to be better than conformity). Actually, though, although voting weird would punish oneself, yet it would also reward those who vote similarly, which an unselfish person would naturally be glad of. A selfish person, on the other hand, would try his utmost to be as conformist as possible in voting (since doing so is to his monetary advantage). Accordingly, selfish people would have practically no say in how government subsidies are distributed, while the unselfish would have very much say—certainly a very desirable property! Another difficulty that might at first sight arise is that the large number of corporations would make voting on subsidies impractical. Clearly, however, what would happen is that several (a few hundred?) organizations would make lists that reflect their opinions of how subsidies should be given, and people would choose their favorite list (perhaps making a few modifications). At any rate, the system is in one sense more reasonable than that of voting for people: by averages being taken, every person’s wish is taken into account. This is impossible in ordinary elections; it is not possible for (say) one-third of one candidate to be elected, one-fourth of another, and five-twelfths of a third. Unlike a sum of cash, an elected official can’t be chopped in pieces without reducing his effectiveness. As long as purse strings are controlled directly by the people, I don’t think direct government subsidy of business differs much from socialism in its worthiness. Probably even in socialism there should be some method of voting by the people on how industries should be subsidized (which would of course encourage industries to set their prices reasonably). Perhaps the most reasonable approach is to let people vote on how much money should go to businesses and the activities of government simultaneously; i.e., let the people decide the extent to which they want socialism or direct subsidy of business. Indeed, likely a mixed approach is best.* I shouldn’t be surprised if the founding fathers actually created the legislative branch because of a sense they had that the people should have a more direct control over spending than a purely executive system would give. A voting system actually giving direct control is what the founding fathers would probably have most wanted had it been technically possible then, so I just really don’t feel I am being un-American proposing principles some might reject as socialist."

Footnote *: For the interested, what I suggest is that when an industry is a good bit more efficient as a monopoly, the government should own the monopoly. It is silly, for instance, for there to be more than one railroad between two towns when traffic doesn’t support it, and it is silly to have several electric, data, telephone, or cable TV lines coming into a typical house; thus, railroads and utilities should probably be monopolies. And monopolies should typically be government controlled. Thus, for instance, if your utility company or local railroad becomes incompetently controlled, the people have more than weak government regulation (generally necessary in monopoly situations to preclude underproduction for the sake of driving prices up) to rectify the situation. The government unlike a board of directors can be booted out by ordinary people in elections. E.g., it was pointless that people had to put up with Penn Central and its predecessors mismanaging railroads for decades before Penn Central went bankrupt. Once the government stepped in, making Penn Central Conrail, it quickly became efficient and started being quite useful again (as well as making money). Likewise, PG&E has been obnoxious long before Erin Brockovich, and it would have been better if they had gone bankrupt long ago, and I’m sure that if their idiotic faith in their own lies as to the benefits of decreased regulation of electricity production finally leads them to become bankrupt, that will be the best thing that could happen. (My paternal grandparents were involved in the politics of electricity manufacture and distribution in California way back in the thirties, and the campaign PG&E waged against them was apparently so obnoxious that my grandmother even in her last years viewed PG&E as evil and felt obliged to remind people of it frequently as though that is one of the great lessons to be learned in life.) On the other hand, if spreading production in an industry among several manufacturers doesn’t lead to much inefficiency, it seems to me that having most production spread out among various private firms is preferable to having everything controlled by the government. After all, the president only gets elected every four years and is frequently not exactly the wisest American nor the most solicitous to ferret out the mistakes his agencies make. Moreover, there is (as is desirable, actually) a certain amount of inertia that keeps civil servants from being replaced very frequently. Government agencies are like corporations in that they can be good or bad and are not easy to change. Thus, when competition is harmless, production among many mostly privately operated firms is generally desirable as leading naturally via competition to increased efficiency even when the government is not very good or effectively self-regulating. For instance, it would be silly for clothing manufacture or hair cutting to be nationalized.

Since writing my book, it has occurred to me that an alternative to punishing monetarilly those whose subsidy votes are nonstandard is making their vote count less.
 
Mystech

Quote - "And why should it benefit society? What obligation does an artist have to the idea of society?"

I agree, technically, one could argue that the artist/creator, or any of us for that matter, don't owe anything to society.

My entire argument for this thread hangs on the premise that we do owe society something simply because without contribution from its members (us) it cannot function. i want the next generation to be better off than us, and the generation after that to do better than them, etc. But, if you truly believe we owe nothing to society then my argument doesn't work so it really depends on your perspective.


As i said before, a limited copy write would allow that for a time (14-20 yrs.), then it enters the public domain and enriches all. Everyone wins, its not like I'm talking about people working for free here! The larger the knowledge base a society can access, the better off it will be.

just a thought.
 
i]Originally posted by Mystech [/i]
And why should it benefit society? What obligation does an artist have to the idea of society?
I can just as easily ask what obligation society has to the artist.

From thought to brush on canvas to finished work of art, at what point does anyone else in all the world have any claim to a peice of art, other than the artist who made it?

As soon as it is in the public. We aren't taking your original, only duplicating it. That said, an amount of time should be allowed for you to make money of duplicating your work.

Copyright terms should be indefinate, and should be treated as a part of the estate after death.

Thoughts are not property. Why should they be treated as such?

It's amazing how many people turn into communists when it comes to the issues of art or technology.

I disagree. I think it is more uncapatalistic and communism to control ideas. It inhibits free markets from forming.

they just aren't going to share it with you pricks who want to say that somehow it belongs to you, too

The painting doesn't. The idea does. It should be fully within my right to photograph a painting in my house which I bought.... after all, when I bought it, it belongs to me too. What I then do with my property is, as you say, my business. The end effect is that as soon as it is sold to the public, the IDEA is public property.

Copyrights protect artists rights to their own work, that protection is something which should never expire.

Why should we protect your ideas from being used by other people? Don't I own something when I buy a copy? Can't I then do what I want with it?
 
Originally posted by Mystech
If enough people are still willing to pay for your work, then yes, actually it does give you the right to sit on your ass and collect money from it for the rest of your life.
They are only willing to pay for your work because you have a monopoly.

but don't try to force everyone to give up the rights to what they have produced.

You can keep what you produce, but people don't produce ideas... they have them.
 
Link?

thanks for contributing but couln't ya just have made a link?

It would have been inconvenient for people to have had to search for that particular material amid the rest of my book.
 
Royalty aspects

This is a great topic and is quite relevant in respect to current debates and hearings within the government. I was happy to see a thread about it.

I read a majority of the posts.....but didn't closely examine each one so forgive me if I duplicate info. from a previous post.


The key point I want to present is that just because you own the copyrights to something does not mean you will recieve royalty payments. I know this is obvious......but the only way to recieve royalty payments is to first and foremost have your material published. Royalty payment figures are derived from the direct publication of the artists work and what medium the public consumes it. I'll use Music as my example.

When an artist solely owns copyright and publishing rights to their work, their royalties are based off of several different facets of public consumption. Album sales, radio airplay, performance, commercial use, sheetmusic reproduction, and the list goes on.....

These are all key elements in how royalties figures are calculated and are closely monitored by ASCAP, SESAC, and BMI. These are companies that have field agents that monitor and record the data that formulate your royalty payments and the auctual profits are sent to the publishing company who then distributes the royalty checks based on your contracted percentages. (ASCAP, SESAC, AND BMI provide the data that make up "The Billboard Charts).

This is why it is very profitable to be a songwriter who has formed thier own publishing company....because you recieve the majority of the royalties. However, you have to think about if you have the means and funds to distribute your material in way that it can be profitable.( An artist can create their own publishing company in their living room with a couple hundred dollars).

Also, Publishing rights are one of the key points that record labels try to obtain from an artist when signing deveopmental contracts.

But the main point I wanted to express is that just because you own copyright doesn't mean it is profitable material until it is published.

So, by saying that 14-20 years is a good term for copyright ownership you are omitting the fact that some material might take years to to have published or even to have fully completed within that time frame. For example......Arcitectual documents and Novel revisions. Basically, any idea that takes a long time to fully develop could possibly spill into Public Domain before it has ever been finished........thus completely ruining ones personal artistic vision. 14-20 years is way to brief of timeframe.

The current copyright period is= Life+75 years for freelance artists and Life+95 years for artist that are considered "Work for Hire"......Disney falls into this catergory.

I hope some of this post is useful to further the discussion. I'll try to elaborate in a better fashion......for future posts....Sorry about that.
 
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