Power, Purity, Meekness and God. The Ugly Reality of Rape Culture.

[milkweed]

Yep. Because HPV and an increased risk of cervical cancer is no different from a bruise on the shin.

LoL Because touching a breast or vaginal area through the clothes is a primary transmission method. Fallacious argument anyone?

― To the other, if it ever comes about that you suddenly find yourself willing to deal with reality, we might remind that not all rape culture is specifically invested in sticking penises in bodily orifices.

...The sociology of rape culture is studied academically by feminists, but there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and as to whether any given societies meet the criteria to be considered a rape culture...

So that allows you to just make it up as you go along I suppose.

 

[Tiassa]

LoL Because touching a breast or vaginal area through the clothes is a primary transmission method. Fallacious argument anyone?

Fallacious confines about the proposition the sentences you quoted address.

Do pay attention; it helps one avoid such mistakes to pay attention.

The sociology of rape culture is studied academically by feminists, but there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and as to whether any given societies meet the criteria to be considered a rape culture...

So that allows you to just make it up as you go along I suppose.

And yet there are common elements to the general assertions. Similarly, by your logic we could argue that the sociology of human culture is studied academically, but there is disagreement over what defines a human culture and so on.

It doesn't mean human cultures don't exist.

Nor does it mean rape culture doesn't exist.

It would be better for everyone, however, if you at least kept up with the thread.

There really isn't anything surprising about your rush to change the subject; such behavior is symptomatic of the dishonesty and dysfunction about rape advocacy.

 

[milkweed]

Fallacious confines about the proposition the sentences you quoted address.

Do pay attention; it helps one avoid such mistakes to pay attention.

Its not my mistake. Its yours by trying to associate a certain aspects of some peoples lifestyle into a defined reason as to why some people behave criminally when it comes to sex. There is no direct relationship as you have tried to define with this 'rape culture' meme you present:

“In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime,”

https://rainn.org/news-room/rainn-u...-force-to-overhaul-colleges-treatment-of-rape

Now I cant think of a more anti-sexual violence org than RAINN, and even they recognize the problem with 'rape culture' as a detraction from solving real issues. Well, they go as far as completely disagree and actually stating Not By Cultural Factors.

And yet there are common elements to the general assertions. Similarly, by your logic we could argue that the sociology of human culture is studied academically, but there is disagreement over what defines a human culture and so on.

It doesn't mean human cultures don't exist.

And now your straw-manning again; no where do I claim human culture doesnt exist. And your claim isnt a general assertion, its completely false. Your posts have been completely disjointed as you struggle to make a connection between fundy xianity and college/sports hazing events and this ownership/rape culture meme, when you know full well very few fundy xians or college hazing or sports hazing involve sexual anything in their 'culture'. The examples you use are the outliers and that proves nothing other than there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

[Tiassa]

Its not my mistake. Its yours by trying to associate a certain aspects of some peoples lifestyle into a defined reason as to why some people behave criminally when it comes to sex.

Again, that is your mistake. Look, it's one thing if you don't bother reading people's posts, but this bullshit where you're trying to write their arguments for them in order to have a straw man to slay is really, really stupid.

There is no direct relationship as you have tried to define with this 'rape culture' meme you present:

“In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime,”

You're mixing issues. RAINN is correct―

Now I cant think of a more anti-sexual violence org than RAINN, and even they recognize the problem with 'rape culture' as a detraction from solving real issues. Well, they go as far as completely disagree and actually stating Not By Cultural Factors.

―and you are wrong.

RAINN follws up↱ the paragraph you cite with the following:

While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in the many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., "masculinity"), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.​

And this would be funny if it wasn't so serious. The question isn't "athletes" or "frat boys" or "masculinity", but the elements of how those things are regarded. Rape culture among athletes does not mean every athlete is a rapist; rather, it has to do with a culture of privilege―the same sort of detachment from basic human responsibility that saw Golden Tate break and enter a donut shop because he had the fucking munchies―and general misogyny. In the end, a rapist is a rapist is a rapist, but anyone actually paying attention to the question of rape and college athletes is also aware that these players receive extraordinary privilege and protection.

The Greek system? It's true that the Greek system is not obliged to be a rape factory, but somehow it manages to accomplish that dubious task. Masculinity? That all depends on how we define the term.

But let us consider the argument you put forth. One factor we might appreciate is that you and I can agree that rape isn't an accident. After all, even the source you provided argues that rape is the fault of "those who choose to commit rape". So all those guys who pretend they didn't know they were raping someone, who tell us that her eyes said yes, and all that? Well, at least we can finally put that one to rest.

Rape culture isn't simply reserved to the rapists. It is a pervasive influence so named because of its results. The rapist is certainly responsible for the rape, but rape culture is why society attacks rape victims. Capracus' attempt to transpose rape and rape culture is inappropriate. Your attempt to evade the question of rape culture with dubious misinterpretation is no better.

Because whether it's an athlete, a frat boy, a sexually-obsessed television family, or even Bill Cosby, the underlying problem is the same; people think they can get away with it, with no small thanks to a broader cultural paradigm that regards women as sex toys and baby manufactories, and there are plenty of people, yourself included, who will back them up.

We've been through this over and over again at Sciforums, and the one constant in the response is that people will say anything to pretend this isn't really happening.

So think about all the things we hear when the question arises. It's not about what she was wearing, or how much she drank, or whether she socialized with a man she just met. In the end, rape is the choice of the rapist. Rape culture is just the mass dysfunction by which people like yourself cheer on the rapists by making excuses for them.

Infinite Prevention Advocacy, the conservative argument against birth control, the desperate quest to find some reason―any reason they can invent―to dispute a woman's right to conduct her own body as she wishes.

Here's a fun one: I've encountered a sentiment in recent months having to do with transgenderism; some people are apparently so disrupted by the thought of a man wearing a skirt they think he should slice his balls off. Seriously, since I started turning up in a peasant skirt, it's not so much that people ask me if I'm preparing for a transition, but their shock and horror at the prospect that I'm not. In truth, I expect this will pass in time, as various factors dismantle traditionalist gendertypes, but in the meantime it's kind of unsettling, because if you decide it's worth the time to dive into that shock and horror and try to find what's causing it, yes, you will eventually run into rape culture. True, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, but neither do I intend to poll every human being on the planet for their opinion of how I look in my pretty, pretty skirt. In the end, the reason that treads into rape culture is the idea that whatever symbolism a skirt has in their head, it is reserved for women, and has to do with sex and sexuality, and the underlying sentiment that a man should be neither "feminine" nor a receiving partner. That is to say, it comes back to the idea that a woman is for fucking. And that is the intersection. Like I said, I expect it will pass, but for now it's kind of unsettling. That we might suggest such a turn should have been expected brings no comfort. Still, though, find some peace with that situation and suddenly it is rather quite amusing to watch people try to figure it out.

Rape culture is pervasive. Those who seek to deny what is observable really do need to explain themselves. But those who would buy into deliberate misrepresentations such as our neighbor Capracus has made and you are perfectly willing to support, don't have any excuse at all.

Sorry, Milkweed, but you and the Turducken alike blew it. You can't keep on the paths you're on and expect to dig yourselves out of these stupid holes.
____________________

Notes:

Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. "Letter to White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault". 28 February 2014. RAINN.org. 7 July 2015. http://bit.ly/1HMpI1V

 

[milkweed]

Look, it's one thing if you don't bother reading people's posts, ....
You're mixing issues. RAINN is correct―
―and you are wrong.

RAINN follws up↱ the paragraph you cite with the following:

While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in the many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., "masculinity"), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.

​

You're insane. Dont you get it? There is No Rape Culture. That is what they are saying... the blathering on about this Non-existent culture is detracting from the issue. Making it Harder to Stop!Why? Because Millions of people have been in frats and did NOT see this happening and are not associated with what you claim exists within their 'culture'. So when you try to label (generalize) them, Capracus, me and anyone else who says "hey, wait a minute", You fuck up the issue. A fanatic even.

And honestly, if my kid was a sexual assault victim I wouldnt want you anywhere near her. She wouldnt need to be re-traumatized by your pointing out all these bizarre signals of a 'rape culture' you see everywhere. You would be a detriment to her mental health. For years. If she didnt have PTSD because of the assault, she would most certainly develop it after hanging out with you.

You are wrong with your association(s) of the issue of sexual violence and various unmixed aspects of human existence.

The question isn't "athletes" or "frat boys" or "masculinity", but the elements of how those things are regarded. Rape culture among athletes does not mean every athlete is a rapist; rather, it has to do with a culture of privilege―the same sort of detachment from basic human responsibility... In the end, a rapist is a rapist is a rapist, but anyone actually paying attention to the question of rape and college athletes is also aware that these players receive extraordinary privilege and protection.

So there ya go again... it isnt about athletes or frat boys or masculinity.... and flip flop now they receive extraordinary privilege. Like the Duggars?? Knowing how to play/buck the system isnt a matter of 'culture' and it resonates from the highest offices, and board rooms all the way down to the streets of compton.

But let us consider the argument you put forth. One factor we might appreciate is that you and I can agree that rape isn't an accident. After all, even the source you provided argues that rape is the fault of "those who choose to commit rape". So all those guys who pretend they didn't know they were raping someone, who tell us that her eyes said yes, and all that? Well, at least we can finally put that one to rest.

The argument was about whether a 'culture' exists. And your little deflection above didnt need to be put to rest. Well... maybe in your mind.

Rape culture isn't simply reserved to the rapists. It is a pervasive influence so named because of its results. The rapist is certainly responsible for the rape, but rape culture is why society attacks rape victims. Capracus' attempt to transpose rape and rape culture is inappropriate. Your attempt to evade the question of rape culture with dubious misinterpretation is no better.

OMG. There Is No Rape Culture!

Because whether it's an athlete, a frat boy, a sexually-obsessed television family, or even Bill Cosby, the underlying problem is the same; people think they can get away with it, with no small thanks to a broader cultural paradigm that regards women as sex toys and baby manufactories, and there are plenty of people, yourself included, who will back them up.

Except your above obsession with maintaining a culture exists prevents you from dealing with the reality:

We found that the estimated rate of sexual assault and rape of female college students, ages 18 to 24, was 6.1 per 1,000 students. This is nothing to be proud of, but it is significantly lower than the rate experienced by women that age who don’t attend college — eight per 1,000. In other words, these women are victims of sexual violence at a rate around 30 percent greater than their more educated counterparts.

Finally, we can look at educational attainment and the risk of sexual violence. Women without a high school diploma are sexually victimized at a rate 53 percent greater than women with a high school diploma or some college, and more than 400 percent greater than those with a bachelor’s degree or more.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/22/o...-rape-and-sexual-assault-in-america.html?_r=0

And along the lines Capracus was arguing:

For the period 2008–12, persons living in poor households at or below the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) (39.8 per 1,000) had more than double the rate of violent victimization as persons in high-income households (16.9 per 1,000)

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf

Cuz we all know how 'privileged' poor people are...

We've been through this over and over again at Sciforums, and the one constant in the response is that people will say anything to pretend this isn't really happening.

See Above.

Here's a fun one: I've encountered a sentiment in recent months having to do with transgenderism; some people are apparently so disrupted by the thought of a man wearing a skirt they think he should slice his balls off.

Good God, Get Over Yourself. This isnt about YOU and a classic example of your disjointed posting.

 

[Tiassa]

You're insane. Dont you get it? There is No Rape Culture. That is what they are saying...

It really is dishonest to go putting words in other people's mouths. You need to stop deliberately misrepresenting sources:

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

(Boldface accent added)​

RAINN does not say there is no such thing as rape culture. Rather, they encourage the administration to not lose sight of the fact that rape is caused by rapists.

Indeed, the RAINN letter↱ goes on to recommend address of rape culture:

Rainn recommends a three-tiered approach when it comes to preventing rape on college campuses. A prevention campaign should include the following elements:​

1. Bystander intervention education: empowering community members to act in response to acts of sexual violence.​

2. Risk-reduction messaging: empowering members of the community to increase their personal safety.​

3. General education to promote understanding of law, particularly as it relates to the ability to consent.​

You may note that we have not used the term "primary prevention", which is widely used in the field. That is because we have a different definition of primary prevention than many. We believe that the most effective―the primary―way to prevent sexual violence is to use the criminal justice system to take more rapists off the streets. Stopping a rapist early in his or her career can prevent countless future rapes. Because increasing reporting and vigorous prosecution are better adressed in the context of response to sexual assault, we discuss this further in the crime section below. This approach should, of course, continue to be coplimented by education and outreach campaigns targeted towards younger, more malleable populations.​

And by the numbers, they are pretty much correct over the short and middle terms. If, however, we accept the proposition that RAINN says, "There is No Rape Culture", they forfeit the long term. They address rape culture in those paragraphs above; the contrast is an ugly question, but by the numbers the first priority is to disrupt known rapists.

But also note what RAINN doesn't address:

We believe that the most effective―the primary―way to prevent sexual violence is to use the criminal justice system to take more rapists off the streets. Stopping a rapist early in his or her career can prevent countless future rapes.​

There is a reason they don't ever mention stopping a rape career before it starts.

It's really, really hard. And that's where rape culture comes in.

When the question is rapes on college campuses, RAINN has it exactly right. Considering the potential role of the federal government, RAINN has it exactly right. The letter is not without its faults; I'm flipping coins at this point because one can argue to the obverse that RAINN left the opening for your idiotic misinterpretation, but the reverse is that they also have the right to expect basic reading comprehension, and you've pretty much blown that.

It's also a perpetual, ubiquitous risk, to be misinterpreted by people with reading skills insufficient for the task. To the other, it's not exactly an example of good writing.

But you probably should have paid more attention to the basic facts of the document, what it was for, and what it actually said.

And then you wouldn't have to make shit up.

Good God, Get Over Yourself. This isnt about YOU and a classic example of your disjointed posting.

Something about basic reading comprehension goes here.

Actually, that might not be fair. It's still a toss: Is he missing the point, or trying to make a show of evading it?
____________________

Notes:

Berkowitz, Scott and Rebecca O'Conner. "Letter to White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault". Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. 28 February 2014. RAINN.org. 7 July 2015. http://bit.ly/1HMpI1V

 

[tali89]

RAINN does not say there is no such thing as rape culture.

So since they did not specifically claim that there is no such thing as rape culture, that is tantamount to them claiming that rape culture exists? That's taking your 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' bawling one step further, I must admit.

Indeed, the RAINN letter↱ goes on to recommend address of rape culture:

Not true. Interestingly, they do recommend that ""Risk-reduction messaging: empowering members of the community to increase their personal safety." Hmmm, haven't certain liberals on this thread contended that telling women to modify their behaviour to avoid rape is tantamount to victim blaming and rape apologism? Are these individuals going to accuse the authors of the RAINN letter as supporting rape culture?

 

[milkweed]

So since they did not specifically claim that there is no such thing as rape culture, that is tantamount to them claiming that rape culture exists? That's taking your 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' bawling one step further, I must admit.

They did claim there is no rape culture. See my post #203. Here is the relevant quote:

...it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime,”

Tiassa then produced the next paragraph to maintain a rape culture exists by ignoring the basic claim, its not about culture, its about individual behavior.

 

[milkweed]

Something about basic reading comprehension goes here.

Actually, that might not be fair. It's still a toss: Is he missing the point, or trying to make a show of evading it?

Its not a comprehension issue. Its a determination on my part that your analogy was irrelevant to the issue. Reactions to your wearing a skirt is not a symptom of the rape culture and just displays how far out on a whim you are willing to go to see what you already believe everywhere.

Reminds me of a particular born-again I once worked with that saw satan everywhere....

But that wouldnt enter your mind now would it... it must be some failing on my part, not yours.

 

[Tiassa]

You're Not Fooling Anyone

​

They did claim there is no rape culture. See my post #203. Here is the relevant quote:

...it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime,”

This really is dishonest. Sleazy. Low. Pathetic. Useless.

Your claim requires ignoring the rest of the paragraph:

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.​

No wonder you deliberately omitted that part from your quote.

You don't blame rape culture for the rapist any more than you blame mommy for the psychopath. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the cultural standards that blame and denigrate victims, dehumanize women, and ultimately encourage in some cases the act itself, but most often the ignorance by which many people commit rape and then pretend they didn't know they were doing anything wrong. And in a country where a jury can still acquit a rapist because of what the woman was wearing, or a prosecutor refuse to charge a confessed rapist because the victim is to blame, there is no question of "systemic barriers to addressing the problem".

Similarly: I'm not impressed with the RAINN letter, because it is, among whatever else it might be, an example of really bad writing. But while their presumption that anyone reading the letter understands their specific dialect exactly as they do is certainly human, neither does it excuse your ignorance, or pretense thereof.
____________________

Notes:

Berkowitz, Scott and Rebecca O'Conner. "Letter to White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault". Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. 28 February 2014. RAINN.org. 7 July 2015. http://bit.ly/1HMpI1V

 

[Bells]

So since they did not specifically claim that there is no such thing as rape culture, that is tantamount to them claiming that rape culture exists? That's taking your 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' bawling one step further, I must admit.

At no time did they or any anti rape and sexual assault organisations claim there is no such thing as rape culture.

In fact, they believe it does exist, but they used the language that they did in that letter to dum it down for people who throw a dummy spit at the mere mention of it or are too stupid to understand what rape and rape culture means.

RAINN President Scott Berkowitz told me that the memo to the White House Task Force to Protect Students From Sexual Assault wasn’t meant as a thorough critique of sexual violence in America. He agreed there are systemic issues: from untested rape kits to justice system treatment of survivors. But he stood by the passage about rape culture, arguing that the term “muddies” the conversation about how to help survivors and risks alienating allies. “Many people interpret it — men in particular — as accusatory,” he said. “We need to encourage their good instincts rather than pointing a finger.”​

That is why they said what they said in that letter. They were trying to protect the delicate sensibilities of people like you, Milkweed and Mr Turducken. They firmly believe rape culture exists, to get people certain people to understand the complexities of rape and rape culture, they need to reinvent the language in the hope you all do start to understand it.

Not true. Interestingly, they do recommend that ""Risk-reduction messaging: empowering members of the community to increase their personal safety." Hmmm, haven't certain liberals on this thread contended that telling women to modify their behaviour to avoid rape is tantamount to victim blaming and rape apologism? Are these individuals going to accuse the authors of the RAINN letter as supporting rape culture?

You can only say it is untrue if you only take that one sentence out of context. The letter addresses the very issues around rape culture and college campus rape. Those systemic issues all fall under "rape culture". At no time do they claim it does not exist. Far from it. They are just using softer language to not offend your delicate and special sensibilities.

As for their risk-reduction message, a lot of people had issues with it, because it is disheartening to see that an organisation that is meant to help victims of sexual assault continue to place the onus on the victim to not be raped. That letter of recommendation was a clear indication that even organisations like RAINN can get things wrong and clearly did. Why are they wrong? Because it does not work and all it does is set up a standard of behaviour and actions that can have very severe repercussions for victims later on down the track. Of course, when real and valid rape prevention tips are released, men and rape apologists become offended. Why is it that when rape prevention switches to the behaviour of potential rapists, do men and rape apologists pitch a fit? Which is where and why the Duggar's bring their daughters up in a rape culture factory, where the girls are taught from a young age that it is their job to not tempt the men around them and the impetus is never on the potential rapists or molesters to not rape. Hence why their response to their son molesting their daughters was to place the onus on the girls to not be molested, instead of on Josh to not molest. People seem to miss this repeatedly.

It is telling, however, that it is that particular sentence that known rape apologists turn to. Funny that, eh tali89? There are guides to help people understand what is rape culture. Very simplistic guides. However what is clear from this thread that not only do certain people question the veracity of what constitutes rape culture, but they are also willing to excuse the sexual molestation of children who are brought up in what is rape culture by its very definition because 'poor molester'.

The irony of people relying on that one sentence in the context of Josh Duggar molesting children is that RAINN has a clear policy when it comes to child molestation and child abuse. And yes, their recommendation is to report it and to keep the victim(s) safe as the main priority. The complete opposite to what Capracus and Milkweed recommended when they both questioned whether it really was that harmful and what was tantamount to what did it matter because the victims didn't even know when it happened and even encouraged non-reporting of child sexual molestation.

 

[tali89]

OK, I get what Tiassa and you are saying. Even though the letter failed to mention rape culture, they made a supposed oblique reference to rape culture to protect the feelings of purported 'rape apologists'. Then Tiassa and yourself claim that the authors of the RAINN paper are misguided, because teaching rape prevention behaviour to women is bad. So even though you think the authors are in error, you agree with their supposedly underlying message that rape culture exists, which was glossed over to stop rape apologists from getting butthurt. Now *that* is liberal mental gymnastics at its finest.

 

[Capracus]

Not true. Interestingly, they do recommend that ""Risk-reduction messaging: empowering members of the community to increase their personal safety." Hmmm, haven't certain liberals on this thread contended that telling women to modify their behaviour to avoid rape is tantamount to victim blaming and rape apologism? Are these individuals going to accuse the authors of the RAINN letter as supporting rape culture?

As a fellow liberal who has made the same argument on countless occasions, I agree with Tiassa that RAINN got it right.

Risk Reduction

As anyone who has worked on rape prevention knows, risk-reduction messaging is a sensitive topic. Even the most well-intentioned risk-reduction message can be misunderstood to suggest that, by not following the tips, a victim is somehow to blame for his or her own attack. Recent survivors of sexual violence are particularly sensitive to these messages, and we owe it to them to use them cautiously.

Still, they are an important part of a rape prevention program. To be very clear, RAINN in no way condones or advocates victim blaming. Sexual assault is a violent crime and those who commit these crimes are solely responsible for their actions. That said, we believe that it is important to educate members of a campus community on actions they can take to increase their personal safety. In fact, we believe it’s irresponsible not to do so.

Over decades, it has been shown that risk-reduction messaging is an important component of crime prevention overall. This approach has significantly contributed to reducing the number of violent and property crimes. It has a similar value in sexual violence prevention.

Many institutions incorporate risk-reduction tips into their awareness messaging and we encourage the federal government to support this type of messaging. Many respondents —survivors, faculty, and others — to our survey on the issue of campus sexual assault (see Appendix) endorsed this view as well. This recommendation is intended to impart tools of empowerment, not victim blaming.

https://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

You don't blame rape culture for the rapist any more than you blame mommy for the psychopath.

Why not blame mommy (or daddy) or a specific cultural environment for the behavior of a violent offender? Isn’t that what you’re proposing in the case of the Duggars?

And, you know, it should be noted specifically that there is a tale about how Jim Bob took his kid down for a stern talkin' to by the police.

Yeah. That was a longtime family friend and former business associate. And the cop is also now serving his second stint―fifty-six years, this time―for child pornography.

What part of this isn't a rape factory?

Out of ten boys in the Duggar family, one has a history of sexual abuse. Wouldn’t you expect a rape factory to have better than a 10% success rate?

But that doesn't mean we should ignore the cultural standards that blame and denigrate victims, dehumanize women, and ultimately encourage in some cases the act itself, but most often the ignorance by which many people commit rape and then pretend they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

What does any criticism of a victim’s actions have to do with the unlawful actions of an assailant? Criminals feel entitled to take all kinds things, including the physical welfare of others; this isn’t just limited to sexual violence.

And in a country where a jury can still acquit a rapist because of what the woman was wearing, or a prosecutor refuse to charge a confessed rapist because the victim is to blame, there is no question of "systemic barriers to addressing the problem".

By law, when the evidence shows that a woman was forced to unwillingly engage in sexual intercourse, a jury or prosecutor would have no justifiable option in regards to the nature of the charge or its associated trial verdict. That’s not to say that such evidence always get’s adequately gathered or presented, but this is the case for all criminal prosecutions, so sexual assault isn’t a special circumstance in regards to the attitudes of jurors and officers of the court.

 

[milkweed]

This really is dishonest. Sleazy. Low. Pathetic. Useless.

Your claim requires ignoring the rest of the paragraph:

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.​

No wonder you deliberately omitted that part from your quote.

What systemic barriers? The right to face your accusor? Innocent until proven guilty? Right to have an attorney present?

"Joshua Strange, 23, of Spartanburg, S.C., said he was stunned that Auburn University expelled him in 2012 for sexual misconduct even though an Alabama grand jury found insufficient evidence to prosecute him for a sex crime. The internal disciplinary proceeding began, he said, after an ex-girlfriend falsely accused him of sex assault."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...bb3c6a-1d72-11e4-ae54-0cfe1f974f8a_story.html

Sleezy? Pathetic? Dishonest? Yeah, how dare I question whether or not advocates go too far.

Similarly: I'm not impressed with the RAINN letter, because it is, among whatever else it might be, an example of really bad writing. But while their presumption that anyone reading the letter understands their specific dialect exactly as they do is certainly human, neither does it excuse your ignorance, or pretense thereof.

Its not ignorance. I disagree with the definitions. I disagree with the 'rape culture' meme. And I disagree with applying it to normal [which I do not think is the same as average] human behavior. Especially with sex issues; something that is self reported and not always reliable. This is what allows me to accept [in part] homosexuality as normal, when statistically its not average human behavior.

I have no quarrel with jailing rapists. I do have a quarrel with advocates moving the goalposts for an agenda as was the purpose of this thread.

 

[Bells]

OK, I get what Tiassa and you are saying. Even though the letter failed to mention rape culture, they made a supposed oblique reference to rape culture to protect the feelings of purported 'rape apologists'. Then Tiassa and yourself claim that the authors of the RAINN paper are misguided, because teaching rape prevention behaviour to women is bad. So even though you think the authors are in error, you agree with their supposedly underlying message that rape culture exists, which was glossed over to stop rape apologists from getting butthurt. Now *that* is liberal mental gymnastics at its finest.

Of course rape culture exists. We live it on a daily basis.

The recommendations in that letter discuss rape culture without actually using the term to describe it.

One of my pet peeves with rape prevention arguments is that they are worded in such a way as to make women appear too stupid to know these things anyway. We don't need to be reminded of the dangers out there. We aren't children. Most importantly, we cannot control how other people act towards us. Going about my daily life and getting raped in my own home by someone I know.. And being told I could have prevented it by:

1) Hiring bodyguards
2) Getting vicious guard dogs to patrol my property
3) Slept with my phone in my hand
4) Had a better alarm system

and so on and so forth, is unrealistic and then these very same people get angry and offended when I ask if I am supposed to treat all men as potential rapists?

Which is exactly what rape prevention entails. It demands that all men be viewed as potential rapists all the time and therefore take all necessary preventative measures to protect myself from all men who could be my potential rapist. This is not a good way to live. The irony of rape prevention, of course, is that its advocates demand that it is up to women to not be raped instead of demanding men do not rape. True and real rape prevention should be aimed at the potential rapist instead of forcing potential victims to adhere to certain sets of rules and behaviours which may or may not prevent themselves from being raped, worse still, women have to do this while not viewing men as being potential rapists. It is a no-win situation for women.

Yes, I know the dangers that lurk outside. But what rape prevention consistently fails to address is that the biggest danger lurks within, with the men and women the victims know and trust. The only way rape prevention can work in such a case is for women to literally view all men as being potential rapists. And this isn't even touching on the fact that pushing rape prevention and placing the onus on women to not be raped also sets a standard whereby when a woman is raped, instead of looking at the actions of the rapist, the focus is turned to the woman and her behaviour and her background. That is rape culture. When a woman reports a rape and the first thing she is asked is 'what were you wearing?'.. That is rape culture.

 

[Bells]

Why not blame mommy (or daddy) or a specific cultural environment for the behavior of a violent offender? Isn’t that what you’re proposing in the case of the Duggars?

The parents are fully to blame for the way in which they have brought their daughters up to believe they are property to be owned and control by the men in their lives. Not to mention teaching them that their bodies are purely for sex and making bodies at the whim of their husbands and that they have no right to say no at any time. That it is the men in their lives who dominate and have a say in what they do and how they do it. The boys were brought up to believe that if they molest or commit sexual assault, it is the woman's fault and that women and girls have to comply with their wishes.

Worse yet, these girls were taught this after they were sexually molested by their brother and their brother played a role in who they married.

To explain the concept of sexual purity, Jim Bob Duggar told his girls a story about a bike. He asks them to imagine their parents got them a shiny new bicycle for Christmas, but someone comes and rides it first, leaving it all banged up.

"I'm sure you would still be grateful for the bike, and you would have fun riding it," Michelle recounts Jim Bob saying, "but it won't be in the condition your parents had hoped and dreamed it would be when you received it. You would miss out on a lot of the enjoyment they meant for you to have."

It's not the most subtle of metaphors: Let a boy ride you, and your husband will still have fun riding you himself, but he'll miss out on a lot of the enjoyment he was meant to have from riding a virgin.

But in case that's not clear enough, Michelle also offers this:

"Another story Jim Bob shares starts with a disgusting image: 'What if we were at a meeting with about 100 other people and the speaker asked that a large cup be passed around and that everyone spit in the cup? What if you happened to be all the way in the back — the last person on the last row — and when the cup finally came to you, the speaker asked you to drink out of the cup? What would you do?'"

Engage in any kind of sexual activity before marriage and you're as desirable as a banged-up bike or a cup of spit: That's what the Duggar parents taught girls who had been sexually assaulted by their older brother.

Purity culture is insulting and degrading even when it's not directed at victims of sexual violence. It tells women and girls that they aren't valuable because of who they are as human beings — for their intelligence, their kindness, their hard work — but because of what they can offer a future husband. And even then, the supposed value they're bringing is ignorance — about their own bodies, about sexual pleasure, about what they might like in bed and out of it, about what they want in a partner, about their own rights and desires in a relationship. The whole thing is structured to keep women clueless and subservient, to maintain male power, and to assuage seemingly delicate male egos unable to cope with a partner who may know what she likes and, presumably, find him lacking.

Survivors of sexual violence have their rights to their own body momentarily taken away by someone else. Sexual violations are particularly egregious because they're located on a part of the body that should feel good; they take an act that at its best is one of the most transcendent, enjoyable things human beings are capable of experiencing, and turn it into an act of violence, compulsion and control. Restoring a sense of ownership, control, and pleasure over the most intimate parts of oneself is crucial to healing.

The Duggar sexual philosophy denied their daughters that right. That's an incredible act of cruelty.

The Duggar sexual philosophy is that girls' bodies never belong to the girls themselves. They're under the authority of their father or another male figure, and then they belong to their husbands. There is no individual right of female sexual pleasure. There is no value placed on female bodily autonomy or ownership or control. Instead, the message is that girls' bodies are never their own, that the girls themselves are simply vessels for male pleasure, male desires, and male authority, and the girls' job is to preserve their bodies to hand over to the appropriate man.

It's the same mentality — male authority over and right to female bodies — that begets sexual assault in the first place.​

And this is what you defended and mocked anyone who expressed disgust at it.

Out of ten boys in the Duggar family, one has a history of sexual abuse. Wouldn’t you expect a rape factory to have better than a 10% success rate?

Why?

These girls have no control or autonomy over their own bodies. At all. They were taught by their mother that they have no rights over their own bodies and their husbands can use it at his leisure and that their purpose in life is to provide their body to their husband for sex and having children. They are not allowed to say no. They have no right to say no. And even if they do say no, their husband can still override them. She may not want to have sex, but she has no choice but to have sex.

This, by any definition, is rape.

We do not know about any of the other boys in that family. What we do know is that they were brought up to believe that the woman is not allowed to say no. So you tell me, did the parents bring up rapists in that rape factory if the women are never allowed to refuse sex? The only way you could say that they aren't rapists is if you believe women should not have autonomy over their own bodies. Those children were brought up to not believe in rape, simply because she cannot ever say no. If he wants it, he takes it whether she wants it or not.

Even when these girls were molested, the focus was on them to not be molested, instead of being on Josh to not molest. Preventative measures were put in place and the onus was on the girls to not be molested or tempt their brother. This is what these girls had been taught to begin with.

By law, when the evidence shows that a woman was forced to unwillingly engage in sexual intercourse, a jury or prosecutor would have no justifiable option in regards to the nature of the charge or its associated trial verdict. That’s not to say that such evidence always get’s adequately gathered or presented, but this is the case for all criminal prosecutions, so sexual assault isn’t a special circumstance in regards to the attitudes of jurors and officers of the court.

All great on paper. But it isn't reflected in reality.

The majority of sexual assault are not reported to the police (an average of 68% of assaults in the last five years were not reported).1 Those rapists, of course, will never spend a day in prison. But even when the crime is reported, it is unlike to lead to an arrest and prosecution. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 2% of rapists will ever serve a day in prison.​

If you are going to argue that sexual assault is not special in that it isn't special enough to warrant actual prosecution, then you might have a point.

 

[Capracus]

The parents are fully to blame for the way in which they have brought their daughters up to believe they are property to be owned and control by the men in their lives. Not to mention teaching them that their bodies are purely for sex and making bodies at the whim of their husbands and that they have no right to say no at any time. That it is the men in their lives who dominate and have a say in what they do and how they do it. The boys were brought up to believe that if they molest or commit sexual assault, it is the woman's fault and that women and girls have to comply with their wishes.

These girls have no control or autonomy over their own bodies. At all. They were taught by their mother that they have no rights over their own bodies and their husbands can use it at his leisure and that their purpose in life is to provide their body to their husband for sex and having children. They are not allowed to say no. They have no right to say no. And even if they do say no, their husband can still override them. She may not want to have sex, but she has no choice but to have sex.

This, by any definition, is rape.

We do not know about any of the other boys in that family. What we do know is that they were brought up to believe that the woman is not allowed to say no. So you tell me, did the parents bring up rapists in that rape factory if the women are never allowed to refuse sex? The only way you could say that they aren't rapists is if you believe women should not have autonomy over their own bodies. Those children were brought up to not believe in rape, simply because she cannot ever say no. If he wants it, he takes it whether she wants it or not.

Even when these girls were molested, the focus was on them to not be molested, instead of being on Josh to not molest. Preventative measures were put in place and the onus was on the girls to not be molested or tempt their brother. This is what these girls had been taught to begin with.

Your divination of the Duggar's motivations and family life is as flawed as the Duggar’s divination of cosmology. You’re pathetic.

All great on paper. But it isn't reflected in reality.

The majority of sexual assault are not reported to the police (an average of 68% of assaults in the last five years were not reported).1 Those rapists, of course, will never spend a day in prison. But even when the crime is reported, it is unlike to lead to an arrest and prosecution. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 2% of rapists will ever serve a day in prison.​

If you are going to argue that sexual assault is not special in that it isn't special enough to warrant actual prosecution, then you might have a point.

You can’t prosecute crimes that aren’t reported, were you not taught this in law school?

 

[Daecon]

That doesn't mean they're not crimes.

 

[Bells]

Your divination of the Duggar's motivations and family life is as flawed as the Duggar’s divination of cosmology. You’re pathetic.

You do realise this is by their own admittance and the mother and their daughters have discussed this in the past? No?

You can’t prosecute crimes that aren’t reported, were you not taught this in law school?

Are you suggesting unreported rapes and sexual assaults are not crimes because they are not reported?

They are still crimes. It is illegal to rape, sexually assault or sexually molest adults and children. Let me guess, you are from the 'legitimate rape' school?

 

[Tiassa]

What systemic barriers?

You know, we've tried discussing those issues at Sciforums before↗, and it turns out the response is Infinite Prevention Advocacy, on the best of days. When rape culture is on the table, its advocates tend to come unhinged.

Sleezy? Pathetic? Dishonest? Yeah, how dare I question whether or not advocates go too far.

Well, yes, I think it is pathetic, sleazy, and dishonest to try to make the argument that RAINN said "There is No Rape Culture"↑. See, the thing is that your reading of that letter is so terrible that it really is inherently insulting to you that anyone should consider you so stupid and illiterate. To the other, deliberate, calculated misrepresentation doesn't speak any better of you.

But it is also of interest to me that this time, in the case of the Duggar family, the issue is so plain that some rape advocates are actually standing up and defending child molestation. Aside from the blatant desperation, though, there really isn't anything unusual going on. After all, #WhatAboutTheMen?

Interestingly, Mr. Strange filed suit against Auburn University 14 February 2012, and the case was dismissed on 15 February 2012.