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Political Exploitation of Religion
- Thread starter hypewaders
- Start date
I realize Surrey's a big city for a small-town girl like you- but it's simple. Like anyone else, we took the A-316.
OK well, we swallowed big fat lies by big fat tax-and-spend oligarchs like Henry VIII.
Alright, true confession: We weren't all that smart then, so we just copied the Jews.
Alright, true confession: We weren't all that smart then, so we just copied the Jews.
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Adstar: "I don't know wether your intention was to insult people of faith or not."
Well, it's high time you figured it out then: It was not.
"as i try to figure out if your post was
[a]a question or
[p]a judgement
[c]or what
The honest and true answer is [a]. Has your religion made you paranoid, or is this an unrelated handicap?
Well lets dicsect your supposed questions. Lets break it down and see if we can find a question. You wrote.
OK let's consider the possibility that openly religious, and especially openly fundamentalist leaders all over the world are suckers, because their most tender fundamentalist beliefs are easy to fondle or strike.
Is that a question? No that’s a statement. And it's funny how supposed suckers have so much influence on the course of world affairs.
Hopefully that concept will push a few buttons, and fire a few synapses.
Is that a question?
It is my belief that religion is commonly exploited by small interest groups and individuals, for the purpose of exerting prodigious political and economic power.
Is that a question? Nope it is a statement.
Part of the proof of my belief is how openly religious politicians have an anomalous propensity for policy that directly violates the universal notion of truth and justice imbedded in all religions.
Is that a question? Nope it is a proposition.
Religion may not be the Opiate of the Masses, but in the sense of political figures openly devout and charismatic in their religious beliefs, there's obviously something significant going on.
Why?
Why? Stick a Why? at the end of your lecture and then call it a question? When there is no question in the lecture at all only a combination of opinions and propositions.
Lets get back to your reply.
"Religion that serves the state and the elites of this world are false to the teachings of the Messiah Jesus."
So public religious ministers to our Presidents are/have been heretics in your view?
Wonderful a clear Question at last.
Everyone after the time of Jesus. If they have claimed to be followers of the Messiah Jesus and taken earthy power are false in their claim to being a follower of Jesus.
Do you believe the book of Leviticus contains a description of their just punishment?
No. Leviticus is pre Jesus. Followers of Jesus could only exist after Jesus, no one before Jesus ever claimed to be a follower of Jesus. Therefore no false followers of Jesus could exist in the times that Leviticus was formed.
"i do not believe any follower of Jesus should take any part in politics. "
You mean, let us atheists, Muslims, Buddhists etc. do the driving. OK, Fine. Think of it like an urban taxicab then:
[bad Indian accent] Now keeping quiet back there with religious indignance, or I stop car. Thanks[/bad Indian accent/analogy]
Yes let servants of the prince of this world “satan” rule the world and let them do to us passengers as satan allows. But don't ever expect us to be quiet. We will always be trying to save the drivers from the beast that drives them.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I think it is the same old game. And it's changing but not fading away. There has for a very long time been an viral generational perpetuity of influential people manifestly unbelieving in the religious movements and societies that they are profoundly and often destructively manipulating.
Yes indeed. I have known that for quite some time. And in a little more time they will bring so much calamity to the earth that the people of the world will yearn to be saved, presto open the door may we introduce mr Anti-christ.
Plan the calamity. Manage the calamity. Introduce the solution. Objective achieved.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
How did Christians get around usury?
We don't. Usury is wrong. But the elites of this world enslave the masses with it. So false religion that serves the powers of this world find a way to justify it.
Like banning people from charging interest but allowing them to charging a "Fee" for the use of money. And saying it is not usury because it is not called interest. LOL
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I can't speak for everyone else - just as you shouldn't try and speak for me - but no, actually, I didn't know what you meant.
How could I know how aware you were of what happened or the political process?
Considering that you said exactly what I meant...I'm pretty sure you knew what I meant. Unless, of course, you were simply reading it from a cue card...
Adstar: "they will bring so much calamity to the earth that the people of the world will yearn to be saved, presto open the door may we introduce mr Anti-christ.
Plan the calamity. Manage the calamity. Introduce the solution. Objective achieved."
Like The Shock Doctrine. It seems that way. It also seems that there may be a pattern of manipulating leaders with spiritual weakness: GW Bush is not a man of deep convictions, certainly not Christian ones. But he does claim to be convinced that the world must be destroyed to "save" it, and the culmination of history will be the most Total of all Total War.
Which is a little disconcerting in a world leader. But smart he isn't. Since the manipulators we suspect behind the curtain are so amorphous, could it be possible that they are not a person? Please bear in mind that I am not thinking metaphysically here.
What if a particular rot attracts a particular bacteria? Things may be under transformation through spiritual entropy, within belief systems that avoid the confronting of corruption in their highest political points of influence. You say that your belief system promotes leaving this planet and all non-believers to Satan, for a presumably better world. I think that's rotten, and maybe we'd be better off if people like that would just get going without the Armageddon fuss. If you think this place sucks and have somewhere better to be, don't hang around here messing things up for everyone and everything that does not buy into your particular beliefs. I detest throw-away societies and the wretched swath that self-interest has hacked through history. I detest obsessive, self-absorbed exceptionalist collective self-interest, so try not to take that personally.
"Why? Stick a Why? at the end of your lecture and then call it a question?"
Because I'm interested in what you think, if it's not too much to ask. And because "why?" is the Eternal question.
Plan the calamity. Manage the calamity. Introduce the solution. Objective achieved."
Like The Shock Doctrine. It seems that way. It also seems that there may be a pattern of manipulating leaders with spiritual weakness: GW Bush is not a man of deep convictions, certainly not Christian ones. But he does claim to be convinced that the world must be destroyed to "save" it, and the culmination of history will be the most Total of all Total War.
Which is a little disconcerting in a world leader. But smart he isn't. Since the manipulators we suspect behind the curtain are so amorphous, could it be possible that they are not a person? Please bear in mind that I am not thinking metaphysically here.
What if a particular rot attracts a particular bacteria? Things may be under transformation through spiritual entropy, within belief systems that avoid the confronting of corruption in their highest political points of influence. You say that your belief system promotes leaving this planet and all non-believers to Satan, for a presumably better world. I think that's rotten, and maybe we'd be better off if people like that would just get going without the Armageddon fuss. If you think this place sucks and have somewhere better to be, don't hang around here messing things up for everyone and everything that does not buy into your particular beliefs. I detest throw-away societies and the wretched swath that self-interest has hacked through history. I detest obsessive, self-absorbed exceptionalist collective self-interest, so try not to take that personally.
"Why? Stick a Why? at the end of your lecture and then call it a question?"
Because I'm interested in what you think, if it's not too much to ask. And because "why?" is the Eternal question.
Adstar: "they will bring so much calamity to the earth that the people of the world will yearn to be saved, presto open the door may we introduce mr Anti-christ.
Plan the calamity. Manage the calamity. Introduce the solution. Objective achieved."
Like The Shock Doctrine. It seems that way. It also seems that there may be a pattern of manipulating leaders with spiritual weakness: GW Bush is not a man of deep convictions, certainly not Christian ones. But he does claim to be convinced that the world must be destroyed to "save" it, and the culmination of history will be the most Total of all Total War.
Your link did not give much detail about the theory of the shock doctrine it was only a advertising site trying to sell the book. i dare say that some theory that you have to order and buy comes from people who are into capitalism themselves and therefore their theories must be taken with a grain of salt, The book might have some true revelations but i doubt it has a true picture of the situation.
GW Bush is a tool who makes the right sounds to win over a religious populace who desperately want to have a religious leader leading a nation based on religion. All GW Bush;s handlers have to do is make him drop the right words here and there and winning over the religious is easy. Easy because it is easy to deceive a people when you tell them what they want to hear.
Which is a little disconcerting in a world leader. But smart he isn't. Since the manipulators we suspect behind the curtain are so amorphous, could it be possible that they are not a person? Please bear in mind that I am not thinking metaphysically here.
Well is satan a person? No.
There is a pyramid of deception in this world. It’s not just one big conspiracy but like a pyramid built by multiple layers of stone there a multiple conspiracies one working over the other all the way down, to achieve the ends required by the capstone that rests on top. Those under the capstone have a deception to give to those on the third top layer but they themselves are victims of the decieving capstone whom hates and uses them for his ends. Each layer going down the strata are both victims of a deception of those above and also run their own deception upon the layer below. This goes on until you reach the base that is running their own deception upon the ground the pyramid sits on (the masses of the world).
Now sometimes random brilliant individuals and some imaginative conspiracy buffs will by investigation and heightened perceptivity or by imaginative answers reveal the lower level deceptions that are in operation. But lucky for the ones running the deceptions the revelations are so shocking that the masses just do not want to deal with or believe that the world is run by such an abominable bunch of evil mass murders. Most people just drop the information and go on with their lives hoping that they will be able to get through their lives in peace and not fall prey to one of the diabolical schemes of the elites.
So the greatest defence of the evil ones is not their great ability to deceive or keep secret their plans, but it is the masses great desire not to see them. Just as it is easy for the handlers of GW Bush to deceive the religious masses because they want to believe it, so too is it easy for the deceivers to hide their evil from the masses. Because they don't want to see it.
What if a particular rot attracts a particular bacteria? Things may be under transformation through spiritual entropy, within belief systems that avoid the confronting of corruption in their highest political points of influence.
The powers that be have always done their best to suppress any belief system that has avoided corruption. Corruption is necessary to bend and control a belief system to make it a valuable tool of the elites in herding the masses.
You say that your belief system promotes leaving this planet and all non-believers to Satan, for a presumably better world. I think that's rotten,
You have the wrong perception of my belief system.
I have no intention of going anywhere. i belief is that God will eventually come here to earth and we will be with Him on earth. Therefore satans control of the nations of the earth will be brought to an end. This world will be renewed. We will not be going to another world and leaving this one for satan and those who have joy in unrighteousness. So it is not followers of Jesus who will be permanently removed from this world, but satan and his elites and all those in the world who have had joy in unrighteousness.
and maybe we'd be better off if people like that would just get going without the Armageddon fuss.
Armageddon will happen. But no Christian will lift up a weapon and so much as scratch a little toe of a solider in the army of the Beast. No, The returning Messiah Jesus will eliminate the army of the Beast. 200 million troops will die on that day.
.If you think this place sucks and have somewhere better to be, don't hang around here messing things up for everyone and everything that does not buy into your particular beliefs
I have no intention of messing anything up. I have no control of world affairs, I am not part of any elite, I refuse to take part in any physical violence, The teachings of My Messiah call on my to be an extremist pacifist.
And your words seem to be contradictory first you say:
You say that your belief system promotes leaving this planet and all non-believers to Satan, for a presumably better world. I think that's rotten,
And then you say:
we'd be better off if people like that would just get going
First you say that the desire to leave is rotten and then you express the desire that people like me get going????
Make up your mind.
I detest throw-away societies and the wretched swath that self-interest has hacked through history. I detest obsessive, self-absorbed exceptionalist collective self-interest, so try not to take that personally.
I don't. I know your not talking about me when you say that. If you think that is me then i still don't take exception because i understand your working from a limited understanding of me twisted by your perception of those who claim to be faith brothers of mine.
"Why? Stick a Why? at the end of your lecture and then call it a question?"
Because I'm interested in what you think, if it's not too much to ask. And because "why?" is the Eternal question.
Well i guess i have given you some thoughts to chew on. But if your intention was to get into the mind of one of the religious elites that are tools of the deceiver than your wasting your time because i am not one of them. I am in a state of spiritual war against the beliefs that have them in bondage.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
That's impressive that you don't believe in the rapture- I have greater respect for those of us who don't go for the disposable-planet idea. I also wish more USAmerican evangelicals shared your pacifistic and let-Jesus-sort-'em-out-and-kill-em theology (I like the leave-it-to-Jesus approach to conducting mass political killings). It would make for a safer world, especially if those who believe as you do would also confront the people exploiting Christianity in politics. How specifically are you fighting your "spiritual war against the beliefs that have [tools of the Deceiver] in bondage"?
Redefined as excessive simple interest first, then sort of let slide into excessive compound interest.SAM said:How did Christians get around usury?
In fairness, this was accompanied by a revamping of what exactly money was, so that some of the community destruction that formerly attended compound interest and its temptations was avoided. Most of the time.
We now have fundie Evangelical Biblical Literalist bank owners,in the Western Christian countries. I have a suspicion that in five hundred years you will find Islamic hog farmers on this planet - probably in the the Indonesian Archipelago,where feeding pigs does not starve people.
Politics uses religion the way religion uses music, maybe ?
That's impressive that you don't believe in the rapture- I have greater respect for those of us who don't go for the disposable-planet idea.
I believe in the rapture. But not in the way that most well known theologians put forward.
What i think you are talking about is specifically called:
Pre-Tribulation Rapture, It is an escapist ideology that states that Christians will be caught up before the anti-christ is revealed and those caught up will be saved from the greater persecutions and troubles that will befall the earth during those times.
I believe in Second Coming Rapture: That is when Jesus returns to take over the world, followers of Jesus what have died will be resurrected to meet Him in the sky and those of us who are still alive will be caught up to meet Him also. But we will not be leaving this world we will be coming back down with him to rule it.
This planet is not disposable it is however renewable and will be through the power of God.
I also wish more USAmerican evangelicals shared your pacifistic and let-Jesus-sort-'em-out-and-kill-em theology (I like the leave-it-to-Jesus approach to conducting mass political killings).
Well strange way of saying it "Political" killings or was that an attempt at humor? Irrespective the religious preachers of this world who have been given the mass media access have been given it by the authority of this world (satan) If they started to preach the pacifist teachings of Jesus that access would be quickly withdrawn.
It would make for a safer world, especially if those who believe as you do would also confront the people exploiting Christianity in politics.
I don't think it would make for a safer world. The authorities of this world would simply lose one of the worlds religions as a manipulative tool. Most people on earth would not listen to the true teachings of Jesus anyway. True christians would remain a small family as it is today, most people who look upon them as people look upon the Amish today, an excentric bunch of oddballs, there to be mocked and accused of being cowards.
How specifically are you fighting your "spiritual war against the beliefs that have [tools of the Deceiver] in bondage"?
Well i am like one of them guys who go in and free people from a cult. But i do not kidnap the brain washed i use the words of Jesus to free individuals minds that are in bondage on a one by one basis. But i am under no delusion that i am going to save the world from deception. The fact remains that the vast majority of people in those religions think that their teachings are true and good and look upon the Love of the true Message of Jesus with contempt. In most cases it is not about poor innocent people being skilfully duped but about people who spiritually agree with the twisted dogmas given to them. Most react to the message i give with anger.
Just like atheists who have rejected The God of Abraham and the teachings of Jesus, in 99% of the cases it is not about disbelief in the existence of God but rather it is about disagreement with the will of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Long ago I read about a new psychological phenomenon that had turned up in California.
It was a pattern in scores on Rohrshach Blot examinations. One of the scores in these exams is given to the tendency to use all of the blot in every story - the high score is when every little bit of ink and feature of shape is worked into the accounts, nothing is simply left as not part of the picture.
It's supposedly diagnostic of paranoia. And it worked pretty well, they say, until a bunch of people in California scored very high in that category, but were not fearful or suspicious or conspiracy oriented.
Further interviews established that these people were in fact conspiracy minded, but in a new way - they believed there was a hidden but all-encompassing conspiracy devoted to helping them, protecting them, and seeing that things went well for them.
This seemed to me to connect religion with paranoia.
I have noticed that among the more religious of the politically minded, there seems to be a tendency to believe in conspiracies hidden behind the facade of mistaken or feckless or criminal authority we see in, say, W's administration. The notion that somewhere, somehow, there is a cabal of people who know what they are doing - good or evil - , that thsi is all somebody's plan, seems to be connected with a certain kind of politics. And it's a ripe target for exploitation, of course.
It was a pattern in scores on Rohrshach Blot examinations. One of the scores in these exams is given to the tendency to use all of the blot in every story - the high score is when every little bit of ink and feature of shape is worked into the accounts, nothing is simply left as not part of the picture.
It's supposedly diagnostic of paranoia. And it worked pretty well, they say, until a bunch of people in California scored very high in that category, but were not fearful or suspicious or conspiracy oriented.
Further interviews established that these people were in fact conspiracy minded, but in a new way - they believed there was a hidden but all-encompassing conspiracy devoted to helping them, protecting them, and seeing that things went well for them.
This seemed to me to connect religion with paranoia.
I have noticed that among the more religious of the politically minded, there seems to be a tendency to believe in conspiracies hidden behind the facade of mistaken or feckless or criminal authority we see in, say, W's administration. The notion that somewhere, somehow, there is a cabal of people who know what they are doing - good or evil - , that thsi is all somebody's plan, seems to be connected with a certain kind of politics. And it's a ripe target for exploitation, of course.
I have a "conspiracy theory" in mind myself. Well, not so much a conspiracy theory, as it is a notion that certain tools of a certain trade have remained disguised to most people for many centuries.
Popular religions are all continuously and without exception hijacked for the purpose of worldly power-plays. This confuses some into considering particular religions the source of trouble, as we so often hear Islamophobes insist is the case with terrorism and Islam. I don't see it that way.
What is clearly evident is how in every society enduring profound turmoil, religion always is the favored and most effective tool employed by those reaching for power, often in Machiavellian ways contradicting the core ethics of any viable religion.
What does the consistent universal political hijacking of religion really reveal unto us about the likelihood that a superior metaphysical being is guiding or communicating with us through any organized religion? Would a God interested in revelation really give us "Here, Deep In Obscurity, Is Truth: Muddle It Beyond All Recognition, and See If I Care"
There's scant evidence of the steady hand of God at the helm of any religious movement. There's an abundance of evidence that others take the wheel. I suspect that there are in reality no divinely-revealed religions- only a collection of beautifully-crafted, highly-evolved political vehicles; time-tested tools of the thought-control trade, masterfully marketed as revelation by unbelieving human manipulators through the centuries.
Popular religions are all continuously and without exception hijacked for the purpose of worldly power-plays. This confuses some into considering particular religions the source of trouble, as we so often hear Islamophobes insist is the case with terrorism and Islam. I don't see it that way.
What is clearly evident is how in every society enduring profound turmoil, religion always is the favored and most effective tool employed by those reaching for power, often in Machiavellian ways contradicting the core ethics of any viable religion.
What does the consistent universal political hijacking of religion really reveal unto us about the likelihood that a superior metaphysical being is guiding or communicating with us through any organized religion? Would a God interested in revelation really give us "Here, Deep In Obscurity, Is Truth: Muddle It Beyond All Recognition, and See If I Care"
There's scant evidence of the steady hand of God at the helm of any religious movement. There's an abundance of evidence that others take the wheel. I suspect that there are in reality no divinely-revealed religions- only a collection of beautifully-crafted, highly-evolved political vehicles; time-tested tools of the thought-control trade, masterfully marketed as revelation by unbelieving human manipulators through the centuries.
If the most convincing liar is a true believer in the lie,hypewaders said:There's scant evidence of the steady hand of God at the helm of any religious movement. There's an abundance of evidence that others take the wheel. I suspect that there are in reality no divinely-revealed religions- only a collection of beautifully-crafted, highly-evolved political vehicles; time-tested tools of the thought-control trade, masterfully marketed as revelation by unbelieving human manipulators through the centuries.
and there is a connection of religion with paranoia as hinted at above
and paranoids exist, positive and negative, including visionary ones,
we do not need cynical unbelievers to do the majority of the manipulating and scene-setting.
Although they would be more constrained in their manipulations, compared with the opportunistically tyrannical. Less famous in history, on average, maybe. John Weatherspoon compared with Aaron Burr, say.
"If the most convincing liar is a true believer in the lie"
But the "lie" is purported Justice. To believe in Justice is to follow what is undeniably just.
"we do not need cynical unbelievers to do the majority of the manipulating and scene-setting."
Oh yes we do- if the "Chosen Ones" are allowed set the scene. It doesn't take Godhead to observe that we're all the same animal.
John Witherspoon : Aaron Burr I'm still processing that, stand by...
But the "lie" is purported Justice. To believe in Justice is to follow what is undeniably just.
"we do not need cynical unbelievers to do the majority of the manipulating and scene-setting."
Oh yes we do- if the "Chosen Ones" are allowed set the scene. It doesn't take Godhead to observe that we're all the same animal.
John Witherspoon : Aaron Burr I'm still processing that, stand by...
"paranoids exist, positive and negative, including visionary ones"
Visionary paranoids?
This is the exact place where I always get lost about religion. Maybe it's too much to ask, but I expect The Supreme Consciousness to be rational.
A lost soul, who does not think this strenuously in response to just any postor- What am I missing here?
Witherspoon & Burr has me flummoxed too.
Visionary paranoids?
Paranoid - exhibiting irrational fear or distrust.
This is the exact place where I always get lost about religion. Maybe it's too much to ask, but I expect The Supreme Consciousness to be rational.
A lost soul, who does not think this strenuously in response to just any postor- What am I missing here?
Witherspoon & Burr has me flummoxed too.
Believers do not expect to comprehend that rationality, merely perceive it, in a similar way the intrinsic meaning and sense of great works of art or certain landscapes is perceived.hypewaders said:This is the exact place where I always get lost about religion. Maybe it's too much to ask, but I expect The Supreme Consciousness to be rational.
Someone motivated by such a vision of barely glimpsed meaning underlying all - and critically, all: everything is brought into the single great Way -
("And all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well" Christian nun
"And all was as leaves in the wind, blowing across the ground" Zen monk)
is constrained by what they then know. They cannot deal in blood (others') for unworthy gain or political leverage, because they cannot overvalue that gain. Their honest belief prevents their accomplishing certain of what less encumbered, shallower visionaries can.
But it also seems to me that other realms of accomplishment are more easily open to them, made easier of effort by their being held back from distraction into the petty. And John Witherspoon (sorry about the misspelling: this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Witherspoon
) looks like an example of that, one we can discern.From Witherspoon's legacy at Princeton, out of his students came: thirty-seven judges, three of whom made it to the Supreme Court, ten of his former students became Cabinet officers, twelve were members of the Continental Congress, twenty-eight sat in the Senate, and forty-nine were United States congressmen. One, Aaron Burr, became Vice President, and another, James Madison, became President. These men and many others had a tremendous influence on the young republic. When the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in America met in 1789, 52 of the 188 delegates had studied under Witherspoon. The limited-government philosophy of most of these men was due in large measure to Witherspoon's influence.
Just that Burr is more famous and better known, while being probably less influential and less important to the rise of the United States. And Burr is more famous, better known, in part - it seems to me - because he was given to the more cynical use of religion, and was not a true believer, but one of those who uses a religion they understand along with other human motives and frailties to manage the rabble and gain noticeable, fame-attracting power.Witherspoon & Burr has me flummoxed too.