I have accepted to the fact that I have no control over him masturbating. But Okinrus is right about the difference in values. My values say that porn is not right. The magazines really bother me. My boyfriend says that he will throw them away but does he really want to. I don't want him to resent me for that but at the same time I don't want the magazines in the house. It is funny that you say that he is addicted to sex though because he says that I have a higher sex drive then him. Do I tell him to throw out the magazines or not???????
Please take this question seriousely
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I think okinrus is full of it myself, in that he comes from the angle that there must be something wrong with your boyfriend and that he has something to overcome to be worthy of you. He is right in that you have a difference of values. You both need to find some way to become completely honest with each other about this, maybe to the point of seeking professional counseling for it, if he is that important to you. You need to know exactly why he masturbates and enjoys pornography, and he needs to know exactly why you don't think that is ok. As far as him having to overcome it, he probably doesn’t. I don't think I have ever heard of a worse Idea then trying to change someone into the person you want them to be. Its insensitive and a bit megalomaniacal. If you both understand each others reasons, but must still disagree, then you are going to have to come to a compromise, or realize that this is a dynamic in which you two are simply not compatible.
No don't tell him to toss the magazines. Tell him how they make you feel and see what he does. You can't be happy together by trying to control eachother without really understanding the demands you are making on one another.
No don't tell him to toss the magazines. Tell him how they make you feel and see what he does. You can't be happy together by trying to control eachother without really understanding the demands you are making on one another.
<b>Spy</b>, Regardless of whether my advice is correct, I don't think Sam would come here unless if she really felt there was something wrong.
If you believe that cheating is wrong, than fantasizing about cheating is also wrong. Encouraging such thoughts will only make them stronger.
I don't know. At some point he will need a way to prove to you his love and giving him the responsibility to remove them might not be such a bad idea. If you believe this is very serious, then maybe you should get counseling. This kind of thing is fairly among married men when the relationship has gone downhill.
Well, once again Oki gives the kind of advice I cannot stand. He should not need to sacrifice in order to earn your love, and you shouldn't have to put up with something you hate for his. If you can’t both talk about it freely and come to some sort of conclusion that doesn’t involve either of you sacrificing then maybe you aren’t right for each other. If you make him give something up for you he will resent you whenever he wants it again, and if he doesn’t toss the porn you just aren’t going to be happy with him.
Oki seems to be speaking from a sort of paradigm that seeks to force people together whether they are compatible or not. He says "He will need a way to prove to you his love and giving him the responsibility to remove the might not be such a bad idea."
What a Masochist!
If you need to start trashing things you like in order to prove devotion, then you are in the WRONG relationship.
Oki seems to be speaking from a sort of paradigm that seeks to force people together whether they are compatible or not. He says "He will need a way to prove to you his love and giving him the responsibility to remove the might not be such a bad idea."
What a Masochist!
If you need to start trashing things you like in order to prove devotion, then you are in the WRONG relationship.
okinrus said:
Well that's quite a leap if you ask me. The thought is now just as bad as the action? That's just a little bit unrealistic don't you think? I'm sure that in your life you've been so angry that you could just strangle someone, but did you? I assume you didn't, but should you then be held accountable as though you had?
There’s a big difference between romanticizing some generally bad idea, and focusing on the really great aspects of it to get your jollies and actually going through with it. That’s the reason the Dirty Harry movies are so much fun, we’d all like to be a bad-ass detective who doesn’t play by the rules, but very few of us would like to have to run around getting pissed off and shooting people and then being chewed out by our superiors all day, it’s more trouble than it’s worth.
Fantasy, especially sexual fantasies, even of other women (in this case) are perfectly fine, they're cathartic. There is always a part of us that wants to do the wrong thing, or indulge in actions which, though with tantalizing benefits which may seem immediately relevant would otherwise really do us harm, and frankly masturbation sates those parts of us (for most) and really eliminates the urge to actually go through with it, it's cathartic.
No, I think Sam's expressed on this thread that she loves her boyfriend, and this requires that you must help each other. The problem is determining the how not submitting. Sam trashing the pornography does not seem to be an option because it remove the satisfaction that her boyfriend would of trashing it himself, and her boyfriend could presumably obtain more pornography.
It's not like this is giving up playing baseball, hearing music, or watching tv, and it's really somethiong he should want to do anyway.
This is true but in my opinion a constant desire to do something bad is worst than occasionally doing something.
This is true but only to some extent. Garbage in garbage out. I believe sexual attraction is much more capable of harm because somehow the images are more likely to stay permanent.
This desire to do the wrong thing should not be encouraged though. We can watch somewhat violent movies only because we can be fairly confident that were're not going to go around murdering people. I don't think we can same about relationships.
- uh... whoever said this...
-Okinrus
Oki, by this logic you are saying "a constant desire to (kill someone) is wors(e) than occasionally (killing someone)". (and I'm just filling in blanks).
Also just by removing porn, its not going to remove the thoughts, Porn is just motivation. Motivation could then become his co-worker, which could then lead to his being motivated.
Oki the same can be said of some porn, not many of us will end up in a 12 person gang-uhm-bang.
okinrus,
"This is not true but it's a very difficult habit to stop."
Masturbation is not a 'habit'. It is a natural, healthy sexual function. People have always done it, other animals do it. If a male does not have a regular sexual release, it is unhealthy. It is not something to be ashamed of. With that said, too much of anything can be a bad thing. But I dont think thats the case here. I am not sure why you would think its a habit that should be stopped...unless you have religious reasons to think its bad?
"This is not true but it's a very difficult habit to stop."
Masturbation is not a 'habit'. It is a natural, healthy sexual function. People have always done it, other animals do it. If a male does not have a regular sexual release, it is unhealthy. It is not something to be ashamed of. With that said, too much of anything can be a bad thing. But I dont think thats the case here. I am not sure why you would think its a habit that should be stopped...unless you have religious reasons to think its bad?
The goal is not to become an animal. But, yes, this would occur naturally even without doing it.
Well, there's religious and practical reasons. Obviously, in a practical sense if someone could do so within moderation, then perhaps the tendency towards self-gratification could be stifled. But self-gratification leads only to more. Pornography, also, was never was popular until the invention of the photograph, and notwithstanding whether it's right or wrong, pornography is an abnormal stimulation placed upon a human being. It did not exist in the full graphic form in ancient times nor the animal kingdom; the effects could lead to abnormal behavior. The human mind simply was not built to tolerate it.
Since her boyfriend's habit is taking away from her relationship, he does not seem completely mentally healthy, even if we take the view that masturbation is healthy within moderation.
From the religious standpoint, its wrong but they should be married as well.
"The goal is not to become an animal."
Strange goal since we are, obviously, an animal.
"But self-gratification leads only to more. "
IS this from personal experience? My experience tell me differently.
"The human mind simply was not built to tolerate it."
A normal, healthy human has no problems tolerating it. There is possibility of addiction, but that again does not seem to be the case here. BTW, porn did not start with the photograh. There are such things as pornographic writings. The reason porn is so popular is the un-natural sexual situations modern society puts humans in (ie. never have sex with anyone but your gf/wife).
"Since her boyfriend's habit is taking away from her relationship, he does not seem completely mentally healthy, even if we take the view that masturbation is healthy within moderation. "
If she approaches him openly with an honest discussion...I do not think it would be an issue in their relationship. They both simply need to come to an understanding of what each other's wants and needs are. If they cannot do this, they are probably not compatible.
Strange goal since we are, obviously, an animal.
"But self-gratification leads only to more. "
IS this from personal experience? My experience tell me differently.
"The human mind simply was not built to tolerate it."
A normal, healthy human has no problems tolerating it. There is possibility of addiction, but that again does not seem to be the case here. BTW, porn did not start with the photograh. There are such things as pornographic writings. The reason porn is so popular is the un-natural sexual situations modern society puts humans in (ie. never have sex with anyone but your gf/wife).
"Since her boyfriend's habit is taking away from her relationship, he does not seem completely mentally healthy, even if we take the view that masturbation is healthy within moderation. "
If she approaches him openly with an honest discussion...I do not think it would be an issue in their relationship. They both simply need to come to an understanding of what each other's wants and needs are. If they cannot do this, they are probably not compatible.
To help clarify on our relationship, we are so right together. My boyfriend and I are best friends and I have never met anyone as well rounded and wonderful. I love him more than life itself and would never let anything come between us. This is a case of maybe differnet values and difficulty of communicating because he is more comfortable about porn and masturbating and I say why when we have each other. It is like those in this thread that says it natural and healthy and I am like Oki saying that the is more to it all religion, values. This situation is not going to make us or break us. We are together for the long hall. I have never been happier in my life except for this situation. It has been difficult to deal with but the communication in this thread has helped wonders. This weekdend I am going to show him this thread to help our communication. I think that things are on their way to getting better rather then letting this become something that ruins a great thing.
This seems to be a matter of classification but the animal kingdom seems to thrive on death and primative desires.
Yes, to some degree. It can easily be a cycle.
True, I was careful to mention "graphical." I'm also not too certain how popular these types of stuff images were in ancient societies. We have Rome in its decadence but it's likely more primative societies were more based upon survival than indulgence.
I think all primative and complex human societies have the rudiments of marriage. It's the most natural relationship, since before contraception became popular, there had to be a stable relationship to raise the kids.
okinrus said:
okinrus said:
Hmm, so at one time we're supposed to reject anything natural enough to be seen as animal like, but at the same time pornography is bad because it's not seen in the animal kingdom (well outside of humans)?
Too bad MS word hasn't figured out how to integrate a hypocrisy checker.
okinrus said:
Really, abnormal behavior? The human mind wasn't built to tolerate images of nude members of it's own species? Bizzare, I can't wait to hear your justification for this. I'm wondering when you started studying psychology, you're so far ahead of me at this point that everything you say just sounds like nonsense you made up on the spot!
okinrus said:
Wrong, Dr. Phil, it takes two to have a conflict. Her nitpickiness could be just as equally blamed for the situation. I'd have to agree with Karass that the best thing to do would probably be for the two of them to have a frank conversation about the whole thing. He needs to hear how his masturbation makes her feel, and she needs to be accepting of the fact that masturbation is natural and healthy (it even lowers the risk of prostate cancer!) and is not at all unreasonable activity for anyone to engage in.
okinrus said:
From a religious standpoint a sea food buffet is wrong, and so is polyester. Sometimes a person needs to take a step back and realize what's really important, and what else is just so much ancient chaff mucking things up.
No, I was just pointing out that the animal kingdom does not exactly have the greatest life. Nevertheless, we still can gain some insights. As for my argument against pornography, I think I argued that societies before our's did not have pornography in the full graphic form that we do today. Animals are not mentioned in this argument. Animals not having pornography might lend some credence to my argument but I never really mentioned it. Of course, it's quite possible that mankind has become worse than animals. It would then be reasonable to criticize both animal and man.
I was almost not going to respond to this thread but I felt that the opposite viewpoint needed be heard. I don't think I'ver done anymore than presenting the opposite view.
Lets talk Art history (definitly a favourite subjects of mine 
)
I would like to repeat and emphasis: " It (porn) did not exist in the full graphic form in ancient times."
Here's where I get to prove you are full of shite.
= Warning the following links contain classicly pornographic material if you are squeamish or immature don't look =
Through the history of human culture art has been a predominate factor. And specifically in ancient cultures the concepts of propagation are particularily prominant. In all ancient beleif systems there is a goddess of fertility, and the cheif god is always associated with virility. Think how many children Zeus for example fathered and how many virgins were taken in various forms (human and animal)
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_2_1a.html
http://www.hominids.com/donsmaps/clickphotos/venuswillindorflarge.jpg <- the venus of willendorf particularily emphasis the female form in terms of fertility. Larger "child bearing hipped type" women would of course have been the erotic ideal of that time period. Statuettes of this type were common as most tribes were nomadic, small portable goddess of sexuality.
Here are some examples of etruscan art emphasising the male virility
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/eg/vetti.jpg <- Marble fountain in the House of the Vetti, Pompeii. First Century B.C.
http://www.ou.edu/class/ahi4163/files/stone02.html <- Cenatur from Vulci, Nenfro, 550 B.C. Side
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/cg/priapus.jpg <- Priapus, the God of the phallus and male sexuality, weighs his prodigous member. This is from a painted wall at the House of the Vettii, in Pompeii. (The culture of Pompeii was abruptly ended in 79 A.D. by an eruption of mount Vesuvius.)
Now that we have covered the eroticism and worship of the human figure in terms of fertility lets talk about "coupling". At the very very simple level I would like to mention the Kama Sutra. Kama" means pleasure or sensual desire. It is the name of the Indian God that represents the sexual nature in man. "Sutra" means short books or aphorisms. It is believed that what is today’s version of the Kama Sutra was in fact compiled and put into written form from a long history of rich oral tradition. Written in Sanskrit by a man named Vatsyayana, its structure appears as poetry and verse. Kama Sutra was written around 100 bc.
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/cg/fuckcup.jpg <-A Red-Figure cup by the Tripolemos Painter, 470 B.C., Greece (colorized).
I don't think I really need to fill in up to the present day, though perhaps I should mention that even Shakespeare threw his hat into the ring and wrote and ode to his penis.
Eroticism and porn is not something new, as for why animals don't have their own playboy mansion. Because well I have never seen a dog handle a pencil let alone a camera. Pornography began as a celebration and cry for fertility, but has developed over the years to be a celebration of beauty, reproduction and life. If you think I'm grasping straws I will gladly produce more examples. Perhaps the sistine chapel or michelangelo's David?
)(both of the above are accredited to Okinrus.
I would like to repeat and emphasis: " It (porn) did not exist in the full graphic form in ancient times."
Here's where I get to prove you are full of shite.
= Warning the following links contain classicly pornographic material if you are squeamish or immature don't look =
Through the history of human culture art has been a predominate factor. And specifically in ancient cultures the concepts of propagation are particularily prominant. In all ancient beleif systems there is a goddess of fertility, and the cheif god is always associated with virility. Think how many children Zeus for example fathered and how many virgins were taken in various forms (human and animal)
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_2_1a.html
http://www.hominids.com/donsmaps/clickphotos/venuswillindorflarge.jpg <- the venus of willendorf particularily emphasis the female form in terms of fertility. Larger "child bearing hipped type" women would of course have been the erotic ideal of that time period. Statuettes of this type were common as most tribes were nomadic, small portable goddess of sexuality.
Here are some examples of etruscan art emphasising the male virility
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/eg/vetti.jpg <- Marble fountain in the House of the Vetti, Pompeii. First Century B.C.
http://www.ou.edu/class/ahi4163/files/stone02.html <- Cenatur from Vulci, Nenfro, 550 B.C. Side
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/cg/priapus.jpg <- Priapus, the God of the phallus and male sexuality, weighs his prodigous member. This is from a painted wall at the House of the Vettii, in Pompeii. (The culture of Pompeii was abruptly ended in 79 A.D. by an eruption of mount Vesuvius.)
Now that we have covered the eroticism and worship of the human figure in terms of fertility lets talk about "coupling". At the very very simple level I would like to mention the Kama Sutra. Kama" means pleasure or sensual desire. It is the name of the Indian God that represents the sexual nature in man. "Sutra" means short books or aphorisms. It is believed that what is today’s version of the Kama Sutra was in fact compiled and put into written form from a long history of rich oral tradition. Written in Sanskrit by a man named Vatsyayana, its structure appears as poetry and verse. Kama Sutra was written around 100 bc.
http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/cg/fuckcup.jpg <-A Red-Figure cup by the Tripolemos Painter, 470 B.C., Greece (colorized).
I don't think I really need to fill in up to the present day, though perhaps I should mention that even Shakespeare threw his hat into the ring and wrote and ode to his penis.
Eroticism and porn is not something new, as for why animals don't have their own playboy mansion. Because well I have never seen a dog handle a pencil let alone a camera. Pornography began as a celebration and cry for fertility, but has developed over the years to be a celebration of beauty, reproduction and life. If you think I'm grasping straws I will gladly produce more examples. Perhaps the sistine chapel or michelangelo's David?
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And tend to make unfounded statements.
"ooooOOOoo Animals don't have pornography."
-> THAT'S CUS THEY DON'T USE TOOLS!
Animals don't express theirselves artisticly!
Oh and if "Marriages were always stable and monogomous" how come whore houses have been able to survive for centuries. Can't say only the young unmarried used them as most people were married by the time they were 20 (at the LATEST). And they exist in EVERY culture from the common whore house in european sea ports, to concubines in asia, to Geisha in the isolated island nation of Japan, a nation that developed untouched by the rest of asia for thousands of years. Also how stable were family relationships with most able bodied men shipping off to war every couple of years? Face it women were the back bones of the family and men were there or not. Monogomous or not. The facts are there.
"ooooOOOoo Animals don't have pornography."
-> THAT'S CUS THEY DON'T USE TOOLS!
Animals don't express theirselves artisticly!
Oh and if "Marriages were always stable and monogomous" how come whore houses have been able to survive for centuries. Can't say only the young unmarried used them as most people were married by the time they were 20 (at the LATEST). And they exist in EVERY culture from the common whore house in european sea ports, to concubines in asia, to Geisha in the isolated island nation of Japan, a nation that developed untouched by the rest of asia for thousands of years. Also how stable were family relationships with most able bodied men shipping off to war every couple of years? Face it women were the back bones of the family and men were there or not. Monogomous or not. The facts are there.
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That's not hypocrisy but folly. I believe graphic, photographic pornography is a late invention, although prostitution is quite old since it appears even in Gilgameshs. The photograph and realistic art only appeared quite late in human history. As for the other nude pictures, these were only in Rome's decadence or fertility gods. Of course, civilizations such as egypt would also have erotic art, but I think there's no evidence that it was widespread because this kind of art was expensive and difficult to produce.
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