Paul and Women's status

Originally posted by Raha
What do you think about this:

1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE.

Norman Perrin summarises four reasons that have lead critical scholarship to regard the pastorals as inauthentic (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 264-5):

Vocabulary. While statistics are not always as meaningful as they may seem, of 848 words (excluding proper names) found in the Pastorals, 306 are not in the remainder of the Pauline corpus, even including the deutero-Pauline 2 Thessalonians, Colossians, and Ephesians. Of these 306 words, 175 do not occur elsewhere in the New Testament, while 211 are part of the general vocabulary of Christian writers of the second century. Indeed, the vocabulary of the Pastorals is closer to that of popular Hellenistic philosophy than it is to the vocabulary of Paul or the deutero-Pauline letters. Furthermore, the Pastorals use Pauline words ina non-Pauline sense: dikaios in Paul means "righteous" and here means "upright"; pistis, "faith," has become "the body of Christian faith"; and so on.
Literary style. Paul writes a characteristically dynamic Greek, with dramatic arguments, emotional outbursts, and the introduction of real or imaginary opponents and partners in dialogue. The Pastorals are in a quiet meditative style, far more characteristic of Hebrews or 1 Peter, or even of literary Hellenistic Greek in general, than of the Corinthian correspondence or of Romans, to say nothing of Galatians.

The situation of the apostle implied in the letters. Paul's situation as envisaged in the Pastorals can in no way be fitted into any reconstruction of Paul's life and work as we know it from the other letters or can deduce it from the Acts of the Apostles. If Paul wrote these letters, then he must have been released from his first Roman imprisonment and have traveled in the West. But such meager tradition as we have seems to be more a deduction of what must have happened from his plans as detailed in Romans than a reflection of known historical reality.

The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter.
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I think that to plagiarize Kirby's Early Christian Writings speaks volumes.
 
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
I think that to plagiarize Kirby's Early Christian Writings speaks volumes.
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OK. I forgot to post the link. My fault. But your immediate accusation of "plagiarization" also speak volumes. If I wanted to "plagiarize" I would hardly just "copy-and-paste" the original text. I would try to change it little bit to make it seem like my own work. And I would not start "What do you think about this:", which indicates that I am going to cite external source. Do me a favor CA - go and play smartass somewhere else.
 
<i><b>1 Timothy is one of the three epistles known collectively as the pastorals (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus). They were not included in Marcion's canon of ten epistles assembled c. 140 CE. Against Wallace, there is no certain quotation of these epistles before Irenaeus c. 170 CE. </b></i>
I think this actually supports the alledged writings of Paul. Because Marcion corrupted parts of Paul's letters(removing Paul's correspondence with James and Peter) and these corruptions were noticed, it would therefore be difficult to add entire books to Paul's gospel. The fact that Paul was thrown into captivity many times is missed. <i><b>Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity,27 compelled28 to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west,29 and suffered martyrdom under the prefects.30 Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.(The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians1 )</b></i> Polycarp also quotes from Timothy in two places. <i><b>"But the love of money is the root of all evils."24 Knowing, therefore, that "as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out,"25 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness.(1 Timothy 6:10)</b></i>
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-11.htm#P770_145457 Ignatius quotes from 2 Timothy
<i><b>"Wherefore Paul exhorts as follows: "The servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle towards all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves.</b></i> and compare these quotations to what is said in 1 Timothy as well <i><b>None of these things is hid from you, if ye perfectly possess that faith and love towards Christ Jesus96 which are the beginning and the end of life. For the beginning is faith, and the end is love.97(1 Timothy 1:14 and 1 Timothy 1:5)</b></i> <i><b>Wherefore Paul exhorts as follows: "The servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle towards all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves."</b></i>(2 Timothy 2:24) http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-16.htm#P1093_206499

There are many more quotations from Timothy but these are enough for right now. It would appear since Polycarp and Ignatius were both disciples of John these two would add considerable weight to the validity of Paul's latter writing as written by Paul verbatim or by a secretary.

The stand that Paul takes about Jews is similar to the book of Mathetes who is supposed to be an apostle of Paul.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-08.htm#P636_112351 I don't find it any more untrue or anti-semitic than Stephen's Martyrdom or Paul's other writing. The use of the word Jew in Paul's letter is not a referance to all Jews.
 
Originally posted by Raha
Accepted. In that case, I also apologize for my harsh tone.:)
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No problem. You'd have to go some to match M*W's spiritual outbursts. But what can you do with some culty who has Jesus retired and making mevushal wine somewhere in the Bordeaux?
 
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
No problem. You'd have to go some to match M*W's spiritual outbursts. But what can you do with some culty who has Jesus retired and making mevushal wine somewhere in the Bordeaux?
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You are so stupid. Since you know absolutely nothing about the Rennes-le-Chateau theory, why do you comment on it? Again, you never add anything substantial to this forum, it amazes me that Cris and James tolerate the likes of you?
 
Now both of you two are not "stupid" but stubborn. You and your imagination and CA and his rational thinking.
 
Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
You are so stupid.
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Actually, no.
Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Since you know absolutely nothing about the Rennes-le-Chateau theory, why do you comment on it?
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You confuse theory with conjecture.
Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Again, you never add anything substantial to this forum, ...
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Perhaps you're opaque to substance. You certainly avoid it religiously.
Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
... it amazes me that Cris and James tolerate the likes of you?
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Particularly Cris, whose patience I've admired more than once. ;)
 
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