Pain vs prison

P

Persol

I am the great and mighty Zo.
Registered Senior Member
It seems to be mostly agreed on this board that prison does nothing to prevent people from just 'relapsing' once they leave. Jail currently seems to only be a deterrent and acts in no way to fix the problem. That being said, pain would seem a greater deterrent then prison. Methods could be developed which are capable of delievering pain, without leaving physical damage. Of course, this could only replace prison for those crimes which are non-violent.

Any opinions? I know someone is going to bring up cruel & unusual punishment, but it's not very cruel if it's temporary, and it's not unusual if it's done to everyone.
 
This it’s extremely hypothetical. Say, what length of Prison are we talking about, and what king of method will be used to produce pain? :confused:

If I had a choice between a kick on my balls or 20 years Jail, I’ll go for the balls! Ouch! Ouch! :D

If a New Yorker homeless had a choice between toothpicks in his nails with acid, or 10 years jail.

Last but not least. In a free democratic society, we apply jail sentences to criminals as punishment while at the same time give society the opportunity to teach and reinsert that individual back to society. Unless of course, it is a total lost (medical) case.

If we are to think that our current system is not efficient, why in the hell anyone could even remotely imagine that Pain may be a good therapeutically seen option. Of cause, if we don’t intent to reinstate people back into society, the why the PAIN?
:rolleyes:
 
I like your idea Persol, but I'm not sure pain would be that great of a deterent. Hell there's an entire subculture built around getting sexual about pain. Hehe, you'd have fucks breakin the law as some sort of sexual pain getting event... hehe.. as if that doesn't happen now. Either way, it's good idea, but I doubt it would be that great of a deterent.

Actually, for a LOT of people it would be a GREAT deterent but sadly there are too many people who just don't give a fuck about it. Hmm.. yeah, I'll have to give it some thought. Maybe there's a better deterent. The problem is that the most effective deterents are likely all subjective. Until you can get some good insight into that individuals phobias etc, you'll have a difficult time figuring out exactly how to control the person via deterence.

Of course that opens up a whole other can of potentially fundamentally frightening worms.... but my guess is that's where we're heading.

How do you deter someone when they covet nothing.. or that which they covet you cannot deny them? Worse, what if they're just too stupid to control themselves.. in other words, incapable of properly understanding the repurcussions of their actions. It seems to me that most murders are performed in that manner. Generally I doubt that someone committing murder thinks about the person they're killing as a father or employee or whatever aspect of other peoples lives that get effected. I think often they can't even imagine the guilt they'd have to live with if they hadn't buried their conscience deep beneath their pain. Okay, I'm rambling.

I'm just trying to make a weak point I guess that "criminal" behavior is difficult to define (trying to figure which laws are deserving of pain) and difficult to deter given the way things seem to be now.

I do agree with your assertion that the stupid jail system is basically incapable (as it is) of reforming anyone. I don't neccessarily find it to be the fault of the jail system... I'm just not sure it's possible... and I'm a little concerned about a world in which we are able to completely deter crime... thoughts?
 
So, would you be in favor of a treatment like the one from A Clockwork Orange? I'm not sure exactly how you are suggesting that pain be employed.
 
What makes you think pain would be a greater deterant than long imprisonment for criminals?
 
pain also doesn't have the benefit of segregating dangerous criminals from their prey.
 
Originally posted by Microzoft
This it’s extremely hypothetical.
Yeah, just a though I had when I was in a discussion about why they thought spanking was more efficent then scolding.

...while at the same time give society the opportunity to teach and reinsert that individual back to society.
I wonder how often this actually works though. Most criminals seem to just revolve through the doors of jail.

Unless of course, it is a total lost (medical) case.
Yeah, for maniacs and/or violent crimes I don't think this would be a deterent.

Of cause, if we don’t intent to reinstate people back into society, the why the PAIN?
Not so much as a method of reinstatement, but to 'convince' an individual not to do it again.
 
Originally posted by wesmorris
I like your idea Persol, but I'm not sure pain would be that great of a deterent. Hell there's an entire subculture built around getting sexual about pain.
Lol.. I was thinking the same thing, but surely that would be easier ways for someone to get their 'high'.

Either way, it's good idea, but I doubt it would be that great of a deterent.
But would it be more of a deterent then jail? I'm not sure

The problem is that the most effective deterents are likely all subjective.
I was thinking something chemical like pepper spray. I've heard of it not stopping people in their tracks before, but they've always been high.

How do you deter someone when they covet nothing.. or that which they covet you cannot deny them?
This is another benefit.... crime rates are higher among those neighborhoods that are poorer.

It seems to me that most murders are performed in that manner
This is why I only proposed it for non-violent crimes. The worse that happens is someone steals again. No one gets killed.

...concerned about a world in which we are able to completely deter crime...
big brother concerns? yeah, I can see where it might lead.
 
Originally posted by Mystech
So, would you be in favor of a treatment like the one from A Clockwork Orange? I'm not sure exactly how you are suggesting that pain be employed.
Never read the book. I was thinking a one time deal, but duration by severity of crime.

Originally posted by Tyler
What makes you think pain would be a greater deterant than long imprisonment for criminals?
The idea was brought about by a spanking discussion. I'm not sure if it would bea better deterent, but some criminals seem to revolve in and out of jail.

Originally posted by wesmorris
pain also doesn't have the benefit of segregating dangerous criminals from their prey.
That's why I left out violent crimes.
 
We should practice the mob tradition of breaking pinkies and then the remaining fingers till none are left.
 
Originally posted by valentino
We should practice the mob tradition of breaking pinkies...
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As long as we don't touch the thumbs. Oppossible digits are what seperate us from the animal.:D
 
Isn't there a certain amount of pain involved in Prison time, though? I mean, having your teeth bashed out with a metal pipe so that you can give some big hairy guy head all night without him worrying about you biting isn't exactly the most pleasent experience.

Are you going for some sort of pavlovian sort of effect here? If so one would need to commit a LOT of crimes and be punished for them in a very painfull maner each time before they'd eventualy have any natural reaction which made them associate criminal behavior with pain (This is the effect used in A Clockwork Orange except that it was an overwhelming feeling of illness that bestruck our hero/violent criminal). I really suggest you read this book, as it does go into this topic quite a bit.

Appy-polly-logies my droogs, for I must hence forth itty off to tolchock some vecks to earn the night's cutter.

(heh, hope I said that right, it's been a while since I read the book or saw the movie)
 
Originally posted by Mystech
Isn't there a certain amount of pain involved in Prison time, though? I mean, having your teeth bashed...
Non-violent criminals are generally kept seperated from the violent ones.

I really suggest you read this book, as it does go into this topic quite a bit.
Sounds interesting, and it seems a popular reference so I guess I have to go get it:)[/B]
 
Originally posted by Persol
I know someone is going to bring up cruel & unusual punishment, but it's not very cruel if it's temporary, and it's not unusual if it's done to everyone.
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In either case, it is still considered torture.
Originally posted by Persol
Non-violent criminals are generally kept seperated from the violent ones.
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Allow me to speak from first-hand experience and tell you that this is not the case.

:m: Peace.
 
So, you'd basically be giving all masochists a "license to kill"?

*Xev's eyes grow wide and twinkle mischievously*




*Edit*

Oh drat, only non-violent crimes. Y'all no fun. I had planned to wipe out Nu-Metal in a few days...:(
 
Temporary torture would be better then prison for 20 years. Prison is the best way of not only keeping dangerous people away from the public but it is also one of the biggest punishments our modern day government can muster.
 
Non-violent criminals are generally kept seperated from the violent ones.
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Listen to Goofy, its not true at all. The only type of segregation that Im aware of in prison, is segragating child killers from the general population. I have friends that work in prisons and jails, the only time a person is segragated is 1) if they impose a danger to themselves or immediate danger to inmates or 2) they have committed brutal acts towards children. Im sure there are other circumstances, but those are the 2 that they use the most around here.

Im all or nothing on the subject. Either kill them and live with it, or throw them in a cell for the rest of their miserable lives (im talking murderers and rapists here) but to torture them would make you just as much an animal as they are.

I know, I know... waiting for the Pro-Lifers to scream at me... :D
 
"Either kill them and live with it, or throw them in a cell for the rest of their miserable lives"

That's about what's being done with Paul Bernardo right now. Now, you Yanks might not all know who Bernardo is, but let me put it this way - in Canada people freaked out at the movie American Psycho is what inspired Berardo to do the acts he did. And when I say "inspired" I mean he took them straight out of the book. He was about the most disturbing human being I can think of.

And I say 'was' because, well, he's not so much the same anymore. The years of pure solitary confinement have apparently, uh, well changed him. Being alone in a small room 23 hours a day will do that to someone, I guess.

Now that the topics up, I'd say Bernardo/Homolka is probably the single most interesting case I've ever heard.
 
Im all or nothing on the subject. Either kill them and live with it, or throw them in a cell for the rest of their miserable lives (im talking murderers and rapists here) but to torture them would make you just as much an animal as they are.
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But suppose you let them get off (no pun intended) just from being tortured. It's not the morality of the situation, it's the practicality. I know that I, for one, would start making taking out Avril Laverge and Limp Bizcuit fans like fuggin' mosquitoes. Let's not forget the Microshaft corperation, and - well you see my point. Any dork with a high pain threshold would go batshit.

And I say 'was' because, well, he's not so much the same anymore. The years of pure solitary confinement have apparently, uh, well changed him. Being alone in a small room 23 hours a day will do that to someone, I guess.
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Aye. I hadn't heard that, though. How has he changed?

For those not familiar with the case:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/bernardo/index_1.html?sect=1
 
Originally posted by *stRgrL*
Listen to Goofy, its not true at all. The only type of segregation that Im aware of in prison, is segragating child killers from the general population.
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I thought that depending on the crime you could be put in a low security prison? It was described as having a chain link fence as the only security.

Is this mostly just potluck on where the judge wants to send you?
 
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