organised religion vs cults

R

RebelWithoutACow

Registered Senior Member
Whats the difference between organised 'accepted' religions and cults? I mean honetly,you accuse cults of brainwashing people, yet religions, for the most part, gain their members through children, ie: parents who are followers of a particular faith raising their children to believe in deity X....isnt THAT brainwashing?

If parents raise a child telling them that to NOT follow their beliefs is morally wrong, and the vast majority of children (pre-teen, the most formative years) believe pretty much everything their parents tell them, the child is most likely to take up those beliefs.

Lets face facts, if you created a city in the middle of nowhere, totally isolated from the rest of the world, and then raised all the children in that city under some totally fabricated religion, what would happen?

eg: the world was created by a big purple dinosaur called Barney, and you must show your love for him by singing and dancing happy songs.

I think the most likely outcome would be a group of people who worshiped this obviously ( to us ) false god ( oh wait, dont a whole lot people ALREADY WORSHIP HIM? ;P ).

So again I ask, how are organised religions any different to cults?
 
Originally posted by RebelWithoutACow
Whats the difference between organised 'accepted' religions and cults? I mean honetly,you accuse cults of brainwashing people, yet religions, for the most part, gain their members through children, ie: parents who are followers of a particular faith raising their children to believe in deity X....isnt THAT brainwashing?

If parents raise a child telling them that to NOT follow their beliefs is morally wrong, and the vast majority of children (pre-teen, the most formative years) believe pretty much everything their parents tell them, the child is most likely to take up those beliefs.

Lets face facts, if you created a city in the middle of nowhere, totally isolated from the rest of the world, and then raised all the children in that city under some totally fabricated religion, what would happen?

eg: the world was created by a big purple dinosaur called Barney, and you must show your love for him by singing and dancing happy songs.

I think the most likely outcome would be a group of people who worshiped this obviously ( to us ) false god ( oh wait, dont a whole lot people ALREADY WORSHIP HIM? ;P ).

Welcome to sciforums, Rebel. There is no difference. Brainwashing by any other name is still mind-control.

So again I ask, how are organised religions any different to cults?
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The main difference between a cult and an organized religion is that a cult is led by someone who is insane or lying.
 
The main difference between a cult and an organized religion is that a cult is led by someone who is insane or lying.
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HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!! Oh my GOD! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA....heheheheheh......hahahahhahaha......heh....sigh.....AHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA....oh dear lord.....that's the funniest shit I've ever heard.......haha......heh.......hehehehe.........cough...cough.....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

JD
(ps AHHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!)
 
I always thought it was just numbers.
If you have a cult with 10,000 practicing members, would it still be considered a cult?
 
Okinrus is merely disturbed by the comparison. Yes, Mephura is correct, it is mostly about the numbers. Christianity was once a cult(s). But you see, Rebel, how you present brain washing is entirely subjective. From their perspective, if you are not presented with the notion that 'Barney' was god, you are being brain washed. Everything we learn during the formative years are a form of relative brain washing. It is the parents choice within this society and many others, to dictate the child's moral and belief systems during said years. If a parent beliefs their faith, then they are subjectively doing nothing but exposing or entrenching the truth in the child.
 
It's all about memes

There's not really much difference, other than the numbers, as Mephura mentioned. But how does a religion outgrow it's cult status and gain enough members to become "respectable"? That has more to do with the strength of its memes. Basically, a meme is a self-replicating cluster of ideas upon which one unifying vision is created, which is ultimately the glue that holds a group, or superorganism together. Different superorganisms (whether they are religions or civilizations) are based on different sets of memes, and they eventually compete with one another for survival by trying to kill each other off, or at least by knocking each other, in turn, off their respective pedestals.

A successful meme has nothing to do with truth, of course. To survive this deadly competition, a meme merely has to infect its hosts with a higher level of fanatical zeal than its competitors. You can see this when you look at the violent and bloody histories of some of the world's most successful superorganisms (Christianity and Islam being two prime examples). They didn't get where they are by promoting brotherly love, although it might seem that way at first glance.

There are a couple of books I would highly recommend to anyone who is interested in learning more about memes:

"Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme," by Richard Brodie

"The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History," by Howard K. Bloom

"Virus of the Mind" is written in a popular, highly readable format in order to make the concept very easy for the casual reader to grasp. This is an ideal introduction for those who are being exposed to this concept for the first time.

"The Lucifer Principle" takes the concept of the meme much further, and explains in depth its often malignant influence in shaping history. This is a fascinating read for anyone interested in religion, psychology and/or world history.
 
Originally posted by curioucity
Sounds like it's the matter of majority wins, doesn't it?
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I would think its not the numbers involved but the tactics used. For example, look at xianity, specifically, Protestantism. Why are there so many Baptist churches, for example? Some kind of brainwashing had to occur within the original Baptist churches to break away into separate sects. They all probably started out in small numbers. Sometimes it's the smaller numbers that are more fanatical. They break away from the larger sects for one of two reasons: 1) they don't agree with the tenets; 2) they have other tenets to program into their followers. Essentially, brainwashing is mind-control, regardless of the numbers. Look at the massive Southern Baptist Convention as compared to the little Primitive Bible Church out in the boonies. Big brainwashing, little brainwashing. It's all mind-control. It's all man-made religion from the RCC all the way down to the xians on sciforums.
 
Rebel with no Cow:
So again I ask, how are organised religions any different to cults?
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Once you give a cult the manicure of diplomacy, mass, and finance it can go strutting in the robes of ‘religion’.

But a monkey in a suit with a tie on still a monkey.

Curioucity:
Sounds like it's the matter of majority wins, doesn't it?
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No. For every one Christain there are about 3 muslims or Buddhists yet these religions, especially the Asiatic brands like Buddhism or Shintoism, are seen as secular. I’m thinking it has much to do with difference in ritual.

Fountainboy:
Everything we learn during the formative years are a form of relative brain washing. It is the parents choice within this society and many others, to dictate the child's moral and belief systems during said years.
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Negetive. Only *IF* his parents deny the existence of factors outside the paradigm. Brainwashing is homogenous. Humanism is not.

Me teaching my future little boy the sciences and relgions of all corners of the globe would be lovely exposure. Drilling it into him that the Occideantal brand is the only brand out there would be what is brainwashing. "Relative" my ass.
 
a cult has a living human as their leader , while a christian religion has Jesus as their leader.
although a lot of religions dont look to jesus as their leader when you look at the majority of christian religions today. they should look to the bible for answers but instead put their trust in humans[you only have to look at the state off the Anglican Church debating homosexuality and everyone putting their case forward, if they look to the bible the answer is in it , it is abhorrent to god]
 
The max:
a cult has a living human as their leader , while a christian religion has Jesus as their leader
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So this means the fat pink man on the pulpit sweating out his gospel is the Nazarene himself, yes?

although a lot of religions dont look to jesus as their leader when you look at the majority of christian religions today. they should look to the bible for answers but instead put their trust in humans[you only have to look at the state off the Anglican Church debating homosexuality and everyone putting their case forward, if they look to the bible the answer is in it
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If we followed the Good Book, Christopher Lowell would be impaled and then burned to a cinder, Ellen Degeneres trodden underfoot with the gnashing of teeth, and a third or so of the world population with all of Los Angeles being blasted off the face of the planet for being 'blasphemers'.

I'm actually super happy that the Christian faith is wishy-washy.
 
Originally posted by the max
a cult has a living human as their leader , while a christian religion has Jesus as their leader.
although a lot of religions dont look to jesus as their leader when you look at the majority of christian religions today. they should look to the bible for answers but instead put their trust in humans[you only have to look at the state off the Anglican Church debating homosexuality and everyone putting their case forward, if they look to the bible the answer is in it , it is abhorrent to god]
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One minor problem with that is that christianity was considered a cult in rome long after the ole j-man was dead and burried. Like most things in life of a non-concrete nature in our life, the norm is defined by the masses. What the majority says is the way it is.

At that point in time, the majority was the romans (at least in that part of the world, and since communication wasn't what it is today, that is the only place that is relavant to the argument) and they, as the majority, didn't buy into christianity. It wwasn't until the government recognized it, and its numbers grew, that it was no longer considered a cult.

You bring up an interesting point though. That being sects. Most major religions will have differences of oppinion eventually as to what the original intent of the source was or how it should be applied in a word that has changed vastly from the time it started in. The small groupings, if they adhere to the majority of the traditional doctrines, or if they have sufficient numbers are considered a sect of the main body of the religion. The odd ones are laughed at and deemed cults. Look at David Koresh and Jim Jones. Both were christian in origin, but neither had the numbers or the backing of the main body or the religion. Why? Because both stepped far enough away from the original doctrines that the main body veiwed them as shameful representations of the whole.

It raises a question though. Most of the christians agree that christ will come again or some such. In recent history we've had a good share of nut cases claiming to be just that: christ come again. How will they know? How wil any of them know? Anytime some one makes a claim even remotey similar or slightly implying that claim, they are instantly viewed as a nut case.
Seriously, how wuldl christ make himself known? He had people that didn't belileve him in his own time, how many do you think would llisten to him now in a world so skeptical?
How would he get his message out? Info-mercial? Web page? Talk show circuit?
Yeah.. who is honestly going to believe anyone going about it that way? Word of mouth? That would take a while. Telemarketing? Most people just hang up on them.

Ok, I think I run the risk of thread jacking this thing, so i am going to stop now and ask this else where.
 
One minor problem with that is that christianity was considered a cult in rome long after the ole j-man was dead and burried. Like most things in life of a non-concrete nature in our life, the norm is defined by the masses. What the majority says is the way it is.
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No, we were confused with the Atheist who were the <em>real</em> cult members.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
No, we were confused with the Atheist who were the <em>real</em> cult members.
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Huh?
I take this to mean that you are a christian and you think that your religion wasn't considered a cult in ancient rome?
If so, brush up on your history.

If not, please explain what the hell that is supposed to mean.

On a side note:
I would love to hear how a group that doesn't worship a higher power be considered any kind of cult.
 
Originally posted by Mephura
I always thought it was just numbers.
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That's right.
It is the numbers.

One quid, two quid, three quid . . .
 
I take this to mean that you are a christian and you think that your religion wasn't considered a cult in ancient rome?
If so, brush up on your history.
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One reason that christians were persecuted because they were thought to be atheists.

I take this to mean that you are a christian and you think that your religion wasn't considered a cult in ancient rome?
If so, brush up on your history.
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Can you quote from one roman who looked deeply into the matter and considered it a cult? Otherwise, I'll just believe what Justin Martyr said, "Why, then, should this be? In our case, who pledge ourselves to do no wickedness, nor to hold these atheistic opinions, you do not examine the charges made against us; but, yielding to unreasoning passion, and to the instigation of evil demons, you punish us without consideration or judgment."
 
One reason that christians were persecuted because they were thought to be atheists
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No, the problem was that your people believed in a so-called savoir, and it wasn't the one that the state sanctioned. They knew you believed in A god, just not THEIR god. Thought you were atheists....sheesh...

JD
 
So I think I proved my point that christians would be persecuted just as much as atheist would be. Therefore, atheism was believed to be a cult no more terrible than christianity. I suspect that the reason why atheist were not mass-persecuted was due to the bias against Jews and foreign relgion. It had nothing to do with the principles of the religion.
 
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