Is Heaven or any religion's "glorious paradise" a thing we invented from keeping ourselves within the 'sinless' bounds? Did we just invent these paradises so that we could attain a form of justice within ourselves, from going out of bounds and keep us from doing "bad things?"
Opinion on Heaven.
- Thread starter Hypercane
- Start date
The way I look at 'afterlife' is this: Most people feel incredibly empty and hopeless with the thought that this may be it. So they need some sort of justification for life. "If I do good, then this isn't it, I can live forever and ever in paradise!" If you really think about that it is completely illogical, but so many accept it...wonder why? Is it the humane fear of death, or does it have to do with the human species feeling superior to the rest of nature. According to most religions that believe in an afterlife tell us that we are the only ones with a 'spirit' and thus are the only ones who are capable of achieving an afterlife. That is simply a feeling of superiority...and a false one at that.
Yes, humans invented the afterlife for they wanted more than what they have here and now. It is a belief system that anyone would like to believe is true but I think anyone should believe in anything that makes them feel good and makes their lives feel more complete. I, for one don't, but again that's just my belief.
Enigma'07 said:
Can I ask you something? From a Christian perspective, doesn't it seem rather dangerous and ludacris to assume that because you have been 'saved' you can do whatever you damn well please and be forgiven for it? While there are people who lived in a hunter-gatherer society their entire lives, never have heard of Jesus, and have live respectable lives, and they are immediatly damned to 'hell' since they never were 'saved'? Seems a little twisted for a religion about love and acceptance.
:bugeye:
I never said that anything that can be done, should, all I said is that is a dangerous proposition. That means that the most 'evil' people by modern societies standards can lie on their deathbeds, accept Jesus, and then have a valid ticket for heaven.
He may, but Christian doctrine says that one must accept Jesus into his heart in order to be 'saved'. If a group of people have no knowledge of Jesus or his teachings, how do you expect them to ask Jesus to be 'saved'? Surely they cannot without reading of Jesus, so they are damned.
He may, but Christian doctrine says that one must accept Jesus into his heart in order to be 'saved'. If a group of people have no knowledge of Jesus or his teachings, how do you expect them to ask Jesus to be 'saved'? Surely they cannot without reading of Jesus, so they are damned.
Im not prejudice to those people, but for there to be a place that is 'perfect', I would tend to expect that mass-murderers, serial rapists, and people who have no regard for other people would not have a chance to get there.
Of course you have to read the Bible or be in direct contact with a Christian to know that you have to accept Jesus into your heart to have eternal life. How do you think that God moves these people to understand that? If that was the case then why do missionaries go to these places all the time to try to 'save' the population?
Of course you have to read the Bible or be in direct contact with a Christian to know that you have to accept Jesus into your heart to have eternal life. How do you think that God moves these people to understand that? If that was the case then why do missionaries go to these places all the time to try to 'save' the population?
They have been forgiven, so it is as though it never happened.
It helps to have the Bible, but it is not neccisary. Simply, a christian is someone that understands he is not perfect, and because of that, someone must pay for him. He must be 'bailed' out.
It helps to have the Bible, but it is not neccisary. Simply, a christian is someone that understands he is not perfect, and because of that, someone must pay for him. He must be 'bailed' out.
But the fact remains that it did happen. There are still people that are left in the wake of what those people did, and it affects them on a daily basis. But since Jesus supposedly forgave them, it's ok?
Ok, but you are skirting around the fact that Christianity says that all of those people are going to be damned forever. There is no way that they have an 'instinct' to accept Jesus as the messiah, that is why missionaries go there.
Ok, but you are skirting around the fact that Christianity says that all of those people are going to be damned forever. There is no way that they have an 'instinct' to accept Jesus as the messiah, that is why missionaries go there.
yes. How can you expect others to forgive you, if you don't forgive them?
No they aren't going to be damned. The only way a person is damned is if the deny Jesus. They might not be given the same oppertunity as others, but they still have that opertunity and that is the key.
No they aren't going to be damned. The only way a person is damned is if the deny Jesus. They might not be given the same oppertunity as others, but they still have that opertunity and that is the key.
I don't expect others to forgive me, I expect to take responsibility for my actions, not shovel them off onto some 'God'.
Hmm, for the entire time I went to Christian school, I, and everyone else, was taught that if you did not accept Jesus you were damned. You dont have to deny Jesus to be damned, all you need is to be ignorant of him. You still have not shared with me their opportunity either...
Hmm, for the entire time I went to Christian school, I, and everyone else, was taught that if you did not accept Jesus you were damned. You dont have to deny Jesus to be damned, all you need is to be ignorant of him. You still have not shared with me their opportunity either...
Fair point. But if you have a conscience, then I question how you can live knowing that you have offended some one.
You cannot be held responsible for what you do not know. If you don't know that you should tithe 10% then it's not your fault if you don't. God has given every person a conscience to tell them right from wrong. God has set His creation to show His existence. They do know of God.
By taking resposibility for my actions, and dealing with retribution, I do not need to feel guilty for the wrongs I have done. If someone wants to take offense to the degree that they have a permanent grudge, thats their problem, not mine.
Ok but if they call that God by a different name, like Allah, they are damned, right? So they can only know the Christian God, and they have to accept that Jesus was the messiah in order to achieve 'heaven'. From what you have said in your last post, it looks like the people who have not come to know Jesus through their ignorance on the subject are surely damned. Is that just?
Ok but if they call that God by a different name, like Allah, they are damned, right? So they can only know the Christian God, and they have to accept that Jesus was the messiah in order to achieve 'heaven'. From what you have said in your last post, it looks like the people who have not come to know Jesus through their ignorance on the subject are surely damned. Is that just?
So how do you react when others wrong you?
The only person that is damned is the one who refuses to believe in God. God has no one single name. There are many names given to describe Him, but He simply is the I Am. I a person believes in this higher diety and calles them by the name Allah, they are not damned.
The only person that is damned is the one who refuses to believe in God. God has no one single name. There are many names given to describe Him, but He simply is the I Am. I a person believes in this higher diety and calles them by the name Allah, they are not damned.
I treat them like a human thatt makes mistakes. I try not to pass judgement on them, but it happens sometimes. That's my problem in the same way that it is other people's problem when they do the same to me.
Broader and broader. Ok, Christianity says that in order to go to heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior, correct? Are Jews going to heaven or hell? They denounce Jesus as the savior of the world, yet the belive in the same Old Testament God.
Broader and broader. Ok, Christianity says that in order to go to heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior, correct? Are Jews going to heaven or hell? They denounce Jesus as the savior of the world, yet the belive in the same Old Testament God.
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Hypercane said:
You need to understand the concept of Revelation. It is not like Intellectuals can sit in committee and make something up for the convenience of social engineering and then just put out a news letter that everyone will accept and believe. People need to be convinced.
Spiritually powerful charismatic leaders are convincing. They accompany their doctrines with miracles and wonders.
Then there is the enlightened Religious Community that acquires enough personal Spiritual Knowledge to be a significant support to the primary Religious Teachings. Saints that say they have seen Heaven and Hell are a good support to the basic teachings which affirm a Heaven and a Hell.
No mere intellectual invention could ever be propelled into popularity by a Power Charismatic Leader -- because such a wonderful guy would never have anything to do with some intellectual eggheads anyway. Then an intellectual invention would never have the concurance from the psychological reality which the mystics explore and then talk about to their religious circles.
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
cosmictraveler said:
You are talking about designer Religions created to appeal to people's asthetic sensibilities. They ARE becoming more and more popular. People just make it up and then choose to believe it because it sounds good, and then they believe that if the REALLY believe and have faith, then, something they made up out of nothing five minutes before, will BECOME True. I think it is a modern phenomena -- I can't believe that Ancient Peoples were as stupid as Modern People. In Ancient Cultures there were the Shamans and Priests who did a good job of policing their Religious Policies -- keeping the silly house wives from having too much say so. But in modern society, Oprah rules and so we should not expect any other criteria then just simple aesthetics. Sounding good is not only good enough but plenty enough.
The best example of this is "Course of Miracles". it is a huge book which is very popular among women, but its teaching is fairly simple -- 'if you wish hard enough for something, then it will happen'. It tells these dweary housewives and workin girls what they want to hear, and that is good enough for them. Somehow it never seems to matter to them that they still never win the lottery or get a boyfriend pretty enough to be gay who won't beat them. But the Book does offer an explanation for why the Book never seems to work -- if you don't get what you want, then you aren't wishing hard enough. So, in the end, the girls just have another reason for feeling inadequate. Maybe that is what they wanted afterall. They sing that same song so often... they must like it.
No, I don't think heaven is invented by humans.Hypercane said:
It can keep us from doing bad things though...hell can too.
God doesn't fool anyone, hell is bad, heaven is good. That's the way it is.
But we are constantly being fooled to do bad things, why? Is it smart to do bad things? I think it's because of satisfaction for the moment. Not thinking about the long-run consequences.
We are all bent a little to the bad side, thus we have to work much harder in order to remain good (though not good as in Good, but good as in decent).
Adam is like the root of man, if the root is spoiled then that effects the whole plant. But the Bible say (in my own words though, cause I don't have english translation) "as death was introduced by one man to all of humanity, so is all of humanity saved through one man", we are in Jesus hands and death cannot keep us, since He defeated death.