One Way Ticket to Hell

[nds1]

No actually, your expanations are proving my point beyond a doubt. How you can't see the contradiction is truly amazing to me.


klk5, your belief is that if you die and lived a life unworthy of heaven, you go into an unconscious sleep mode until the 2nd Coming. When the second coming happens, you then go the Lake of Fire to suffer for eternity.

Adstar on the other hand believes that if you die and lived a life unworthy of heaven, you (your soul) go to a temporary holding pen called hell in which you are indeed conscious and in which you indeed suffer until the 2nd Coming. When the 2nd Coming happens, you are then transfered to the Lake of Fire where you will continue to suffer, except now it is for eternity (I'm not sure why those people sent to hell weren't just sent directly to the Lake of Fire, unless of course one can get back into heaven even from hell).

So you believe bad people sleep unconsciously after death until the second coming, while Adstar believes you suffer consciously until the second coming.

Please, don't tell me there is no disagreement.

 

[Adstar]

The point is, some of your disagreement is just semantics. You both agree that the Lake of Fire is eternal and involves eternal torture.

Here's where you and Adstar disagree:

Adstar believes that when you die, you don't just sleep until the second coming. Adstar believes that you either go to heaven, or hell immediately upon death. And if you go to hell, you are conscious there, and possibly suffer (after all, it is a prison, right?)

So you, klk5, don't believe you are conscious after death until the Second Coming, while Adstar believes you are indeed conscious after death before the second coming, either in heaven or hell/Hades.

Well i did not say that if you don't go to hell you automatically go to heaven. The scriptures reveal that there will be saints in heaven during the time before the return of the Messiah Jesus. These saints where asking God how long it would be before He would avenge their blood upon the people of the earth. So maybe only saints who are martyrs will go to heaven before the Day of the Lord.

You say nothing goes on in hell. No torment or torture. Adstar's opposing belief is backed by scripture:

True. Jesus revealed the suffering of the rich man in hell. But It is not clear weather Lazarus was in Heaven, Jesus referred to the place as "Abraham's bosom"

Luke 16
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Now is Abraham's bosom heaven? Maybe not.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[superluminal]

The Lake of fire is the permanent solution.

Read the Book of Revelation.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The permanent solution? Kinda like the final solution?

I know who you are adstar. I know exactly what you are.

 

[Adstar]

It seems here that both of you have contradicting views about hell. One says hell is currently in place as a temporary holding pen, while the other says hell doesn't even exist yet. Both of you are basing your claims on the same source: The Bible.

Can someone clear this issue up?

I can clear this up.

kl5k and i have different views on the Will of God as to the state of being of humans after their deaths.

Does that clear up the confusion?

Nds I do not talk for anyone other than my conscience to the Word of God. What kl5k or anyone else says is their own business, it is between them and the God of Abraham. It should not be disconcerting to you that people hold different beliefs as to the Word of God. It seems that from your other thread you somehow take this disagreement at be an invalidating proof against the Word of God? I know others in here use that "logic"??? But it is a very wonky way of thinking.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nds1]

It is not clear weather Lazarus was in Heaven, Jesus referred to the place as "Abraham's bosom"

Either way, the rich man was indeed conscious in hell. How else could have communicated with God in asking for a little water? So we are sure the rich man was.

And that's really all we to know to show that klk5's view contradicts the Bible.

 

[Adstar]

No actually, your expanations are proving my point beyond a doubt. How you can't see the contradiction is truly amazing to me.


klk5, your belief is that if you die and lived a life unworthy of heaven, you go into an unconscious sleep mode until the 2nd Coming. When the second coming happens, you then go the Lake of Fire to suffer for eternity.

Adstar on the other hand believes that if you die and lived a life unworthy of heaven, you (your soul) go to a temporary holding pen called hell in which you are indeed conscious and in which you indeed suffer until the 2nd Coming. When the 2nd Coming happens, you are then transfered to the Lake of Fire where you will continue to suffer, except now it is for eternity

Sorry nds i have to be a stickler or seem pedantic but i must respond to your statement"

Well no actually. I believe the people in Hell will remain there until 1000 years after the return of the Messiah Jesus. So no i do not believe they will be transferred to the Lake of fire upon the return of the Messiah Jesus. Oh even to be more of a stickler, two people will go to the lake of fire upon the return of the Messiah Jesus, The Anti-christ and the false prophet. But the rest will not live until the 1000 years is complete.

(I'm not sure why those people sent to hell weren't just sent directly to the Lake of Fire, unless of course one can get back into heaven even from hell).

Well nds we have talked about this before in another thread haven't we.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The permanent solution? Kinda like the final solution?

I know who you are adstar. I know exactly what you are.

You know when i wrote down that permanent solution i was thinking that someone would use the final solution terminology exactly in the way you have superluminal... You guys are so predictable i almost feel like a prophet lol


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[superluminal]

You know when i wrote down that permanent solution i was thinking that someone would use the final solution terminology exactly in the way you have superluminal... You guys are so predictable i almost feel like a prophet lol


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

We're predictable? If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[Adstar]

Either way, the rich man was indeed conscious in hell. How else could have communicated with God in asking for a little water? So we are sure the rich man was.

And that's really all we to know to show that klk5's view contradicts the Bible.

Well i agree with your conclusion. What more can i say.

I must add however that even if both klk5 and i are wrong on this issue, i do not consider it to be a salvation matter. What i mean is having a misguided view on the after life will not necessarily be a cause for someone to lose their salvation through belief in the atoning act of the Messiah Jesus. People can get a lot of things wrong but still get the essential things right.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[nds1]

Sorry nds i hate to be a stickler or seem pedantic but i must respond to your statement

Keep being a stickler. That's what this is all about. I love it actually because I am personally learning a lot from you, and everyone else on this site. I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of the scripture of The Bible. Many Christians are so uncommitted and ignorant that they don't take the time to actually learn the religion they claim to be a part of.

Well no actually. I believe the people in Hell will remain there until 1000 years after the return of the Messiah Jesus. So no i do not believe they will be transferred to the Lake of fire upon the return of the Messiah Jesus.

And while they are remaining in hell, before and during those 1,000 years they will be conscious and they will be in torment. And guess what gives them even more torment: The approaching Lake of Fire. So not only are they in complete torment in hell, but while they are there they get to wait in anxiety and horror for the Lake of Fire. This adds to the torture and torment.

Well nds we have talked about this before in another thread haven't we.

lol, yes we have. I liked that thread for a while there.

 

[Lomion]

Oh! Oh! I want in on this! How about a non-Christian view? That's right. There's a pagan prowlin' the religion threads.

Anyway, the very word "hell" is derived from the Norse giant Hel, daughter of Loki. When the gods found out about Loki having children, they put him in confinement with a snake dripping it's venom onto his face. More details, but I'll get to the point. Hel was put in charge of the place where souls that didn't die gloriously in battle went to. This became Hel's domain, also called Hel. When Christians started going on their converting rampages (seriously, with book burnings, killing of heathens, and whatnot), they took so much material from Norse mythology, and Irish lore. I'm not sure exaclty where this is documented, but I have a friend who is an Irish druid (actually, his heritage is Welsh, but whatever), and he claims that the concept of eternal torture came from the Irish druidic flavor of Norse.

I can't prove that last part at the moment, but check good ol' wikipedia for Hel. Norse lore predates Christian lore, Christians just took to writing things a little better. And not getting all their stuff burned. Thanks to that it's been hell (no pun intended) finding my heritage.

Also, your religion demands that you are not to judge me. That is the job of your one true God. And please don't try to convert me. I was raised in a Catholic home, and you don't get more deep-Christian than that.

 

[lightgigantic]

Here is what is assumed for this poll:

1. There is a God which exists who wants everyone to serve him
2. A place or realm called heaven exists in which there is happiness for eternity
3. A hell exists which can either be a tempory holding prision (Christianity), an eternal punishment (other religions), or becoming a lower form of existence (Hinduism). Whatever you personally judge hell to be, use that for this poll.


For those who believe in Hinduism, Buddhism, or a religion with similar beliefs:

Out of the billions and billions of people to walk the earth so far, how many people have gone to any one of the 136 hells at least once over the course of their soul's existence:

practically everyone

SB 4.29.30-31: The living entity is exactly like a dog, who, overcome with hunger, goes from door to door for some food. According to his destiny, he sometimes receives punishment and is driven out and at other times receives a little food to eat. Similarly, the living entity, being influenced by so many desires, wanders in different species of life according to destiny. Sometimes he is high, and sometimes he is low. Sometimes he goes to the heavenly planets, sometimes to hell, sometimes to the middle planets, and so on.

Gitamala 9.2
"Sometime I become a demigod, sometimes a demon, and sometimes I get the body of a man, an animal, a bird or an insect. Sometimes I wander up to heaven, sometimes down to hell, and sometimes here on earth, being carried away the whole time by innumerable materialistic hopes and aspirations.

 

[Adstar]

Oh! Oh! I want in on this! How about a non-Christian view? That's right. There's a pagan prowlin' the religion threads.

To the sounds of trumpets:

Wow you mean that we have a athiest posting on the religion threads!!!!!!! Oh gee thanks for telling me bud,, I have been coming here for years and blow me over and knock me down i thought that the majority of the posters on this threaad where athiests. But seemingly i was wrong.

I am going to finaly find out what a REAL athiest is yeeeeeee haaaaaaaa....

Also, your religion demands that you are not to judge me. That is the job of your one true God. And please don't try to convert me. I was raised in a Catholic home, and you don't get more deep-Christian than that.

OMG... you don't get more "deep-christian" than what?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Oniw17]

Here is what is assumed for this poll:

1. There is a God which exists who wants everyone to serve him
2. A place or realm called heaven exists in which there is happiness for eternity
3. A hell exists which can either be a tempory holding prision (Christianity), an eternal punishment (other religions), or becoming a lower form of existence (Hinduism). Whatever you personally judge hell to be, use that for this poll.

I disagree with your premise.

Hell is not the eternal lake of fire. Hell is a temporary holding pen. The Lake of fire is the permanent solution.

Heaven and hell is a state of mind, nobody goes anywhere when they die, they simply transform into toxic bacteria or ash.

Im' so high right now...but...we're assuming these things for the poll. Not saying that that's what really happens.