One more step for evolution...

This one, illustrates a point I like to make regarding evidence for a world with some intelligent direction, and atheists refusal/inability to see the evidence.

Everybody's human after all. :)
All the article says is that scientists (who are human) may have missed the subtle fossil imprints of a second set of wings. So what? Scientists in the past have missed things like the roundness of the earth.
 
If you look closely you can see the (c) God.
Damn it! How could I have missed that for all these years of looking at that image? Just goes to show - we're all human and we make mistakes. I'm off to church now to save my sorry ass from hellfire and brimstone...
 
Superluminal:

"Why do human embryos go through stages that include a tail and gill slits?"

They don't. The "gills" which you speak of share no functional "gill" process, nor is the "tail" an actual tail, but the growth of the torso.
 
Fire

This makes no attempt to answer my question. Don't be embarrassed to admit you are a creationist and that each species poofed into existence without the need to evolve from an ancestor.

I thought it was obvious what my stance was

So I would rather you answer this question (without deliberate typos this time) before I will then take you up on discussing the (god of the) gaps.

Whats to answer?

Seems like you have an issue relating to poofing, but its not clear how you distance yourself from it to begin with.

After all you cannot explain how how the chemicals before abiogenesis poofed. Nor how such inert materials were initialized to form complex structures.
 
Superluminal:

"Why do human embryos go through stages that include a tail and gill slits?"

They don't.
Yes they do. I never said they were functional. They are manifestations of structure that reflect, to some degree, the phylogenic history of our evolution.

The "gills" which you speak of share no functional "gill" process,
See above.

nor is the "tail" an actual tail.
It is a prototail that is incorporated as body structure as the fetus develops. A vestige is left as the human tailbone.
 
Fire



I thought it was obvious what my stance was

Well it's just that you seem reluctant to say. I was just wondering why you are apparently embarrassed to say so and why you won't even attempt to explain in any detail that you think species suddenly appeared from nowhere.

Seems like you have an issue relating to poofing, but its not clear how you distance yourself from it to begin with.

Because every area of science that has any relevance to life, confirms evolution. Calling all scientists wrong is totally ignorant, especially when there is no evidence that species appeared fully formed Adam and Eve style, and every evidence to suggest they evolved from humble beginnings.

After all you cannot explain how how the chemicals before abiogenesis poofed. Nor how such inert materials were initialized to form complex structures.

Your ignorance of the natural world is absolutely astounding. We actually know a hell of a lot about chemistry and how the elements were formed. After Darwins groundbreaking theory of natural selection, subsequent studies in science have vindicated his idea, especially with the discovery of DNA, genes and advances in genetic studies. We also have strong theories about the chemical basis in which abiogenesis happened. But it did happen, and thats where evolution stems from. The very fact you cling to our lack of understanding of abiogenesis simply illustrates the way you worship your 'god of the gaps'.

You just need to read a couple of science books in the areas in which your head is stuck up your ass.
 
Well it's just that you seem reluctant to say. I was just wondering why you are apparently embarrassed to say so and why you won't even attempt to explain in any detail that you think species suddenly appeared from nowhere.
Isn't it obvious? God did it, that's as complex as it gets. Actually some people on anotherforum say that the Roman Catholic church believes in evolution. Though lightningigantic does know quite a bit on most religions.
Because every area of science that has any relevance to life, confirms evolution. Calling all scientists wrong is totally ignorant, especially when there is no evidence that species appeared fully formed Adam and Eve style, and every evidence to suggest they evolved from humble beginnings.
It's writtten in a book, it must be true. EVERYTHING you read is real.
Your ignorance of the natural world is absolutely astounding. We actually know a hell of a lot about chemistry and how the elements were formed. After Darwins groundbreaking theory of natural selection, subsequent studies in science have vindicated his idea, especially with the discovery of DNA, genes and advances in genetic studies. We also have strong theories about the chemical basis in which abiogenesis happened. But it did happen, and thats where evolution stems from. The very fact you cling to our lack of understanding of abiogenesis simply illustrates the way you worship your 'god of the gaps'.
Your lack of understanding God only shows just how ignorant you are. Most of America believes in God, are you calling most of America stupid?
You just need to read a couple of science books in the areas in which your head is stuck up your ass.
Perhaps you need to read the Bible on these subjects, and properly understand the eternal will of the Almighty.
 
Fire



I thought it was obvious what my stance was ”

Well it's just that you seem reluctant to say. I was just wondering why you are apparently embarrassed to say so and why you won't even attempt to explain in any detail that you think species suddenly appeared from nowhere.
Actually it is your theory that species come from nowhere, interms of the origin of the chemicals and theorigin of the means that these chemicals formed life, afte all we do not see examples of life forming out of matter, but rather owing their existence to some conscious source


“ Seems like you have an issue relating to poofing, but its not clear how you distance yourself from it to begin with. ”

Because every area of science that has any relevance to life, confirms evolution.
confirms? eg?

Calling all scientists wrong is totally ignorant, especially when there is no evidence that species appeared fully formed Adam and Eve style, and every evidence to suggest they evolved from humble beginnings.
there is no evidence of the formation of species microbiology style - ther is evidence of formation of species owing their existence ot a conscious source though ...

“ After all you cannot explain how how the chemicals before abiogenesis poofed. Nor how such inert materials were initialized to form complex structures. ”

Your ignorance of the natural world is absolutely astounding.
I was going to suggest the same about your level of faith in reductionist paradigms


We actually know a hell of a lot about chemistry and how the elements were formed.
perhaps, but we don't know how the said chemicals formed into life


After Darwins groundbreaking theory of natural selection, subsequent studies in science have vindicated his idea, especially with the discovery of DNA, genes and advances in genetic studies.
erm .... these things are not life, they are the information systems (real and imagined) that life utilizes


We also have strong theories about the chemical basis in which abiogenesis happened.
head strong theories - 150 years since darwin first started, thinking cells were mere globs of matter - now after a little bit of investigation nobody knows where to start with such endeavours of replicating life


But it did happen, and thats where evolution stems from.
this is a head strong theory - previously it was just a theory (last paragraph) ... and now it just did happen - looks like the theory just evolved (and we are still mystified how ...)


The very fact you cling to our lack of understanding of abiogenesis simply illustrates the way you worship your 'god of the gaps'.
lol - you also seem quite gappy - see above

You just need to read a couple of science books in the areas in which your head is stuck up your ass.
I could suggest a few science books for yourself too
 
Fire

Actually it is your theory that species come from nowhere, interms of the origin of the chemicals and theorigin of the means that these chemicals formed life, afte all we do not see examples of life forming out of matter, but rather owing their existence to some conscious source

Species don't come from nowhere, they come from evolution under natural selection. And in fact we do have examples of life forming out of matter as we have a whole planet full of millions of species demonstrating this fact. We simply don't yet fully understand it in so far as we can spark a second 'genesis' in a petri dish.

It would certainly be odd if an award winning David Attenborough nature documentary stated that life owes it's existence to some ‘conscious’ source.

confirms? eg?

Ever wondered why there is no controversy at all regarding evolution in scientific circles? Because no aspect of geology, paleontology, chemistry, genetics, zoology, biology, Earth science & history, anthropology, climatology, you name it – nothing contradicts evolution. It is the only workable conclusion we can make based on the facts.

there is no evidence of the formation of species microbiology style - ther is evidence of formation of species owing their existence ot a conscious source though ...

Consciousness being the root of evolution is (at best) a mere philosophical notion. Since there is no physical evidence for it, it explains nothing.

I was going to suggest the same about your level of faith in reductionist paradigms

I have no faith. I see the universe the same way science does – the way it simply is.

perhaps, but we don't know how the said chemicals formed into life

You are forming this assertion based on how much reading of biological evolution? I admit I don’t know either, because I have not read up on it to any degree of detail. My general understanding is that it started very simply of course, and the lengthy line between chemical complexity and life, is a very blurred line indeed. So as far as I’m aware, life didn’t just suddenly appear. It’s sort of like asking when a puppy becomes a dog – there is no particular day the change occurs... or if there is, we can't pinpoint it.

erm .... these things are not life, they are the information systems (real and imagined) that life utilizes

The organized complexity of these molecules is what creates life. Saying they are something life makes use of is just a play on words.

head strong theories - 150 years since darwin first started, thinking cells were mere globs of matter - now after a little bit of investigation nobody knows where to start with such endeavours of replicating life

Darwin was misguided in several of his theories. There were indeed gaps. But he died without knowing about important parts of his theory, such as DNA and genetic heredity. Going by the daily advances of molecular and genetic studies, I wouldn’t be so sure that science will never create a second ‘genesis’ in a Petri dish ;)

this is a head strong theory - previously it was just a theory (last paragraph) ... and now it just did happen - looks like the theory just evolved (and we are still mystified how ...)

Abiogenesis is a fact It happened. At some point molecules had to replicate into DNA. There were certainly no DNA molecules on Earth when it was just a ball of fire. Understanding how it happened is when the theory comes into play.

I could suggest a few science books for yourself too

Please do. I think you will find it difficult to find books within scientific consensus that somehow discredits evolution.

The difference between me and you of course, is that I see the importance of scientific consensus and you don’t. People (like you) who refute evolution despite the scientific consensus, also seem unable to come forward with a workable theory. I think it’s better to be ignorant of science whilst taking it for its word, rather than reject it but fail to present good reason why.
 
"Actually it is your theory that species come from nowhere, interms of the origin of the chemicals and theorigin of the means that these chemicals formed life, afte all we do not see examples of life forming out of matter, but rather owing their existence to some conscious source"

- Define exactly what "life" is, and what it is just before that stage?

Mycoplasma genitalium is probably the simplest modern life form with a genome of only 400 units. What is it at 350?

It's like asking at what exact moment does a puppy become a dog.

How about self replicators? They're not "life" are they, and yet they self replicate, (hence the name).

There's a lot more to it than the theists 'life and matter'.
 
Fire

Species don't come from nowhere, they come from evolution under natural selection. And in fact we do have examples of life forming out of matter as we have a whole planet full of millions of species demonstrating this fact. We simply don't yet fully understand it in so far as we can spark a second 'genesis' in a petri dish.

It would certainly be odd if an award winning David Attenborough nature documentary stated that life owes it's existence to some ‘conscious’ source.

does david attenborough have direct empirical evidence of evolution?



Ever wondered why there is no controversy at all regarding evolution in scientific circles? Because no aspect of geology, paleontology, chemistry, genetics, zoology, biology, Earth science & history, anthropology, climatology, you name it – nothing contradicts evolution. It is the only workable conclusion we can make based on the facts.

no controversy with evolution?
:confused:
Then why arethere so many "evolving" understandings how evolution took place?



Consciousness being the root of evolution is (at best) a mere philosophical notion. Since there is no physical evidence for it, it explains nothing.
you weren't born from a mother?



I have no faith. I see the universe the same way science does – the way it simply is.
Then why if its just such a straight forward observation is there a lack of empiriical evidence (which provides the slackness for the understandings of evolution to be updated)



You are forming this assertion based on how much reading of biological evolution? I admit I don’t know either, because I have not read up on it to any degree of detail. My general understanding is that it started very simply of course, and the lengthy line between chemical complexity and life, is a very blurred line indeed. So as far as I’m aware, life didn’t just suddenly appear. It’s sort of like asking when a puppy becomes a dog – there is no particular day the change occurs... or if there is, we can't pinpoint it.
what evolution is lacking is an understanding of these blurred examples that are advocated to be the junctions of life and matter - its very easy to point out the interim periods between doghood and puppyhood


The organized complexity of these molecules is what creates life. Saying they are something life makes use of is just a play on words.
you are missing the point - enzymes are meaningless without dna - dna is meaningless without enzymes - and both these systems find their application in living matter, which operates as a third entity outside of mere dna and enzymes



Darwin was misguided in several of his theories. There were indeed gaps. But he died without knowing about important parts of his theory, such as DNA and genetic heredity. Going by the daily advances of molecular and genetic studies, I wouldn’t be so sure that science will never create a second ‘genesis’ in a Petri dish ;)
given tha you admitted that you ar enot familiar with the complexities of abiogenisis its difficult to understand on what basis you make your statements of confidence



Abiogenesis is a fact It happened.
if you cannot explain how it is not a fact


At some point molecules had to replicate into DNA.
once again - how?


There were certainly no DNA molecules on Earth when it was just a ball of fire.

now it seems you are leading into the problems of establishing how rna developed


Understanding how it happened is when the theory comes into play.

if you cannot establish how something happened you cannot establish if something happened


The difference between me and you of course, is that I see the importance of scientific consensus and you don’t. People (like you) who refute evolution despite the scientific consensus, also seem unable to come forward with a workable theory.
workable to your consensus? As for refuting teh claims of evolution it doesn't require an external source - evolution can be refuted simply by examination of what we have as evidence of evolution - lots of anamolies in the fossil record


I think it’s better to be ignorant of science whilst taking it for its word, rather than reject it but fail to present good reason why.

then why did you make this earlier statement ......

:I have no faith. I see the universe the same way science does – the way it simply is.
 
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