One God, One Book

according to time, place and circumstance, we see an absence of what you deem as essential to islam
You're going to have to be more specific.

Is polytheism Islamic? I don't think so? And you're not taking this into definitions are you LG?

Given that it took 2500 years for an individual to make the decision to destroy it, at a guess I would say that there are reasons particular to the circumstances. .... much like there are particular reasons that can make even a community of buddhists turn into a bunch of raving lunatics:shrug:
No it took 1400 years and not for lack of trying. It was access to TNT. That's it. If Muslim had access to the means to destroy these statues they would have been destroyed much earlier - as it was attempted in the past.

My question is WHY? Other than now they COULD ... why did they think it was "Islamic" to do so?
 
I think it's a better outcome for the human endeavor if we all find a way to get along. And yes, I put the greater part of that burden on the religious, but whether we waltz or beat each other bloody, it still requires that each of us do our part.

Understanding the neuroses brought by religious faith is a key to understanding the broader neuroses of the human endeavor. Solving those conflicts is a long and possibly unrealistic goal, but there's no reason at this point to throw up our hands in surrender and then wallow in the mud.
I agree :)
 
You're going to have to be more specific.

Is polytheism Islamic? I don't think so? And you're not taking this into definitions are you LG?
Thinking that polytheism is the only tenable forum for approaching the issue of multiple faiths is characteristic of atheists attempt to place (mono)theism in a weaker light.

At the very least, it's easy to find numerous personalities who defy such a caricature of orthodoxy, even within islam.
No it took 1400 years and not for lack of trying. It was access to TNT. That's it. If Muslim had access to the means to destroy these statues they would have been destroyed much earlier - as it was attempted in the past.
not sure what makes you think explosives never appeared on the scene until the early 21st century.
What do you think they fought the soviets with?
Rocks and sticks?


My question is WHY? Other than now they COULD ... why did they think it was "Islamic" to do so?
And if you stop to compare that with communities (even islamic communities of the same region eg - In July 1999, Mullah Mohammed Omar issued a decree in favor of the preservation of the Bamyan Buddhas. Because Afghanistan's Buddhist population no longer existed, which removed the possibility of the statues being worshiped, he added: "The government considers the Bamyan statues as an example of a potential major source of income for Afghanistan from international visitors. The Taliban states that Bamyan shall not be destroyed but protected.") who didn't consider it particularly islamic to do so, you might have an introduction to the role political climate plays in determining such affairs.
 
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Thinking that polytheism is the only tenable forum for approaching the issue of multiple faiths is characteristic of atheists attempt to place (mono)theism in a weaker light.
Ever watch Battlestar Gallactica? :)

I'm not saying polytheism is the perfect solution. Perhaps it'd be better to have an Alien Pantheon? Or Buddhist? Or Alien Buddhist? But, I think we can agree LG that we have progressed in the last 2000 years, surely religious mythology is ready for a big step forward once every 2000 years or so? :shrug:

not sure what makes you think explosives never appeared on the scene until the early 21st century.
What do you think they fought the soviets with?
Rocks and sticks?
Pretty much. These statues aren't exactly a 30 min drive from Starbucks.

They had tried to destroy them before LG.

Now, one wonders, why? WHAT part of the Islamic Religion motivated people to destroy these statues?
 
What again was your rational for why One God, One Book should make it to the next round of human mythology?
 
Ever watch Battlestar Gallactica? :)
ever wondered why the introduction of sci-fi doesn't radically alter the framework for the soap opera genre?

I'm not saying polytheism is the perfect solution. Perhaps it'd be better to have an Alien Pantheon? Or Buddhist? Or Alien Buddhist? But, I think we can agree LG that we have progressed in the last 2000 years, surely religious mythology is ready for a big step forward once every 2000 years or so? :shrug:
not too sure what you are looking at to suggest that we have progressed. If anything, we suffer more than ever under the duress of attachment to the ephemeral
Pretty much. These statues aren't exactly a 30 min drive from Starbucks.

They had tried to destroy them before LG.
never the less, this was issued by a taliban spokesperson

In July 1999, Mullah Mohammed Omar issued a decree in favor of the preservation of the Bamyan Buddhas. Because Afghanistan's Buddhist population no longer existed, which removed the possibility of the statues being worshiped, he added: "The government considers the Bamyan statues as an example of a potential major source of income for Afghanistan from international visitors. The Taliban states that Bamyan shall not be destroyed but protected.

Now, one wonders, why? WHAT part of the Islamic Religion motivated people to destroy these statues?
once again, ... if you stop to compare that with communities (even islamic communities of the same region ) who didn't consider it particularly islamic to do so, you might have an introduction to the role political climate plays in determining such affairs.
:eek:
 
ever wondered why the introduction of sci-fi doesn't radically alter the framework for the soap opera genre?
Well, I was thinking more along the lines that the antidote to certain memes is making it's way into the pop-culture. If you want to inoculate for certain memes... that's where you'll do it :p
 
Well, I was thinking more along the lines that the antidote to certain memes is making it's way into the pop-culture. If you want to inoculate for certain memes... that's where you'll do it :p
Strange that after a thousand and something posts about how religion is a fiction, at the end of the day you take recourse of one.
:eek:
 
Could you point out where: What again was your rational for why One God, One Book should make it to the next round of human mythology? is a loaded question?

Seems a perfectly straightforward question to me :shrug:
If you can manage a better version of the q, you don't need me to tell you

How about this: What again was your rational for why One God, One Book should continue to be taught to children?
If you don't share the rationale that there is one, it will probably prove a difficult topic for you to approach.
 
Strange that after a thousand and something posts about how religion is a fiction, at the end of the day you take recourse of one.
:eek:
lost... me... again...

What I'm getting at is as a society people are growing past monotheism and so, as we'd expect, this reaction against monotheism is beginning to appear in pop culture - such as Battlestar Gallactica. I also find the Japanese take on monotheism interesting. It's a reoccurring theme in Anime. Society is questioning aspects of this ideology.

We're just a couple of leaves in all this LG.

:)
 
lost... me... again...

What I'm getting at is as a society people are growing past monotheism and so, as we'd expect, this reaction against monotheism is beginning to appear in pop culture - such as Battlestar Gallactica.
Some questions to bring you back to reality.

What percentage of the world can afford to go to a movie theater?
What percentage of people of the world have seen a sci fi film?
What percentage of people of the world have seen Battle star Galactica?
What percentage of people of the world feel Battle star galactica stirs deep ontological issues they have with god and the universe?

And now for the clincher, what percentage of people of the world have some inkling about the nature of God?

(one of the opulences of god is that he is the most famous. Knowledge about him will still be present long after the industrial society that merchandises sci fi has long gone down the drain)


I also find the Japanese take on monotheism interesting. It's a reoccurring theme in Anime. Society is questioning aspects of this ideology.
In case you haven't noticed, although besieged with problems about its definition, atheism can be historically investigated.

It would be more surprising if it didn't find its voice in narrative given the relative ease media and print can be engineered.

We're just a couple of leaves in all this LG.

:)

There was a time when only wise books were read,
helping us to bear our pain and misery.
This, after all, is not quite the same
as leafing through a thousand works fresh from psychiatric clinics.


-Czeslaw Milosz
022305.gif
 
Some questions to bring you back to reality.

What percentage of the world can afford to go to a movie theater?
What percentage of people of the world have seen a sci fi film?
What percentage of people of the world have seen Battle star Galactica?
What percentage of people of the world feel Battle star galactica stirs deep ontological issues they have with god and the universe?

And now for the clincher, what percentage of people of the world have some inkling about the nature of God?
Well, to be fair I'm referring to mainly Western societies. Not that this matters that much. The fact is, when compared to even a generation ago, people are moving away from monotheism. There was a paradigm shift in society whereby people began to slowly think of racism as wrong. Think about it, only a couple generations ago, not only was racism correct, it was natural - White people were the superior race in all ways imaginable. White Culture was superior. Christianity was Superior. Even our languages were superior. Now a days people don't think like this anymore.

In the same manner people are now beginning to think there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole concept of monotheism. Ironically enough, Islam [being so tightly bound to these concepts: One True God, One True Book, One True Last Prophet], may be hastening this process along (given that the God, Book and Prophet are all different than Xianity). Like snorting a weak strain of smallpox, getting sick for a bit, and having the the body inoculated against it. So, to summarize, my point isn't that there's a flood comparably, but relatively.

We're like floating leaves commenting on the state of river.

:)
Michael

PS: WTF is a "New" Atheist? :confused: Sounds like a Rock Band :p
 
light said:
In case you haven't noticed, although besieged with problems about its definition, atheism can be historically investigated.
According to your link, it hasn't been- not even among the narrow confines of elite European intellectual rumor, under the roof of a single theistic tradition given enormous political power.
 
According to your link, it hasn't been- not even among the narrow confines of elite European intellectual rumor, under the roof of a single theistic tradition given enormous political power.
actually the link points out it depends on one's working definition of atheism
 
Well, to be fair I'm referring to mainly Western societies. Not that this matters that much. The fact is, when compared to even a generation ago, people are moving away from monotheism.
That says nothing about whether it is progressive, sustainable or for that matter, even indicative of world populations.

For instance there are tons of scriptural references about how material prosperity can often diminish a communities commitment to religiosity, so of course one would expect to see a stronger push for atheism in the bourgeois class.

There was a paradigm shift in society whereby people began to slowly think of racism as wrong. Think about it, only a couple generations ago, not only was racism correct, it was natural - White people were the superior race in all ways imaginable. White Culture was superior. Christianity was Superior. Even our languages were superior.
Or alternatively, racism has simply taken a deceptive flavour.

I mean under what culture do you think the races of the world are homogenizing towards?
Negroid?
Now a days people don't think like this anymore.
Probably because they have already been assimilated by white culture
In the same manner people are now beginning to think there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole concept of monotheism. Ironically enough, Islam [being so tightly bound to these concepts: One True God, One True Book, One True Last Prophet], may be hastening this process along (given that the God, Book and Prophet are all different than Xianity). Like snorting a weak strain of smallpox, getting sick for a bit, and having the the body inoculated against it. So, to summarize, my point isn't that there's a flood comparably, but relatively.
Even if your analysis of the role of eurocentricism in contemporary culture was correct, you have a completely incoherent argument on your hands.

The pattern of change you indicate within religion has been present since day one. Its understood to play a role in reformation. Probably the best thing for islam was all this controversy about terrorism. Before then, practically nobody in the western world had a clue about the koran. Pre 9-11, there was practically no text critical discussions of islam amongst (western) academics.

We're like floating leaves commenting on the state of river.

:)
Michael
I'm not sure how that analogy lends strength to your opinion as to which way the current is flowing.

PS: WTF is a "New" Atheist? :confused: Sounds like a Rock Band :p
Bunch of over the top atheists rekindling a type of idealism that kicked the bucket due to events in the 20th century. Even though you may distance yourself from them, your idealism rings closer to their ideology than you might expect.
 
ligh said:
actually the link points out it depends on one's working definition of atheism
The link also points out that
me said:
it hasn't been- not even among the narrow confines of elite European intellectual rumor, under the roof of a single theistic tradition given enormous political power.
light said:
For instance there are tons of scriptural references about how material prosperity can often diminish a communities commitment to religiosity, so of course one would expect to see a stronger push for atheism in the bourgeois class.
How would tons of scriptural references cause one to expect anything in real life? We note that the expectation - more atheism among the more prosperous bourgeois - has been contradicted; but then its derivation from scriptural reference was bizarre in the first place.
 
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The link also points out that
Perhaps its the new atheists love of their meta-narrative that caused you to overlook the sub title

Introduction: the Difficulty with Histories of Atheism

How would tons of scriptural references cause one to expect anything in real life?
much the same as the normative descriptions that surround any claim offer a clue how it does and doesn't function

We note that the expectation - more atheism among the more prosperous bourgeois - has been contradicted; but then its derivation from scriptural reference was bizarre in the first place.
an ease going life born of contentment with ephemeral material facility and spiritual inquiry are a poor combination.

This doesn't necessarily make all or even most materially well off persons partake of atheism. It simply spells an environment where religious principles are apt to decline (which can make for a safe haven for atheism)
 
light said:
How would tons of scriptural references cause one to expect anything in real life?

much the same as the normative descriptions that surround any claim offer a clue how it does and doesn't function
OK: How would tons of scriptural references cause one to take particular interpretations of them as normative descriptions surrounding claims of how real life does or doesn't function?
light said:
an ease going life born of contentment with ephemeral material facility and spiritual inquiry are a poor combination.
We weren't talking about spiritual inquiry.
light said:
It simply spells an environment where religious principles are apt to decline (which can make for a safe haven for atheism)
An interesting hypothesis, which needs only some evidence. I see little support for it, though, and much contradiction - for starters, atheism seems correlated with education and scholarship, not material wealth, in every culture in which theism is the societal norm.

We also note that spiritual inquiry correlates with greater tendency toward atheism, not lesser, in our own wealthy culture.
 
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