One dead goldfish and the nature of suffering

Enmos said:
:mad:

You want fish, you care for them. Don't experiment on the poor bastards.
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nah the experts at the shop reckon they will go 5-8 days without much problem..so don't worry I wont stress them out [ or you either I might add...:)]
 
Quantum Quack said:
actually I have just reread the OP and understand why I have confused... My appologies... I like interesting Ops If I can, makes for more fun...

But to me I simply over fed the fish.. the loss of purpose observation is only an aside and really only speculation. [ That might actually have some merit to it..funniliy enough]
and this is the philosophy forum is it not....:)
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Bah, humbug nobody has really touched upon the OP quite enough yet have they?
It's as if it didn't even exist.
Maybe I will go and check it out. It seemed somewhat interesting.. I think it might be very interesting...
 
There's suffering because people ... wow... there's suffering because people must do as you said; they must strive towards a purpose(s), and they must fail all throughout their lives; otherwise they will be unsuccessful.
 
sisyphus__ said:
There's suffering because people ... wow... there's suffering because people must do as you said; they must strive towards a purpose(s), and they must fail all throughout their lives; otherwise they will be unsuccessful.
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yeah I think you got it.

all the way through life suffering is necessary to keep you moving into the future. With out it there is no need for one. Just a matter of degree...
 
The suffering, in my belief comes from the media in all honesty. Now, I don't mean to sound so "OMG the media killz peeps!" and whatever teenage girlish, I'm just saying, people aren't up to what they want to be, what they see, and this pushes them to suffer because they don't have the will power to get off their fat asses and go hop on a treadmill. The problem is their not only sucking out their own life, but dragging others along their useless path of anxiety and stress from stupid reasons that, at the time, seem oh so important.

Suffering doesn't come from purposes, it comes from stupidity.
 
Quantum Quack said:
Journal Notes:
Yesterday I had three goldfish in a tank. This morning I have two living goldfish and one dead one.

Why?
I guess it was because I over fed them and this killed one of the goldfish.
Whilst the others were recoevring I noticed that they seems to lack any will to continue in fact they appeared quite accepting of their impending deaths.

It dawned on me that for a goldfish his sole purpose in life is to search for and find food. By over feeding them I accidently neutralised that need to find food. They had no purpose to keep living for as they had satisfied themselves by over indulging.

People are the same they crave purpose and when satisfied they have zero to live for. Depression and then death by suicide is usually the outcome.

So why is there suffering?
Care to discuss?
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Suffering is either caused by need or desire. The need one we cannot escape, but the desire one we can. That's about it.
 
Was the tank cycled?
What size was the tank?
What filtration?
What were the water readings?

FYI: Goldfish are very, very, messy fish. long bodied goldfish like those commonly marked as feeders need 40 gallons for just one fish and 20 more for each additional. Round bodied fancy goldfish need 20 gallons for the first and 10 more for each additional. You also need to have really good filtration.

I am an aquarium keeping fanatic. I am going to be an aquatic biologist or marine biologist and when I retire I want run fish store.
 
Quantum Quack said:
I went back to the aquarium I purchased the fish from and had a chat with one of the erudite store persons.
My question was regarding: How long dos it take a gold fish to Starve to death. [ given no food ]

Her reply was any where between 6 and 14 days as a rule although some have lasted consideranbly longer.
I asked her whether she agreed with teh recommended food delivery of twice daily all you can eat in 2 minutes routine. She said she did not. You end up with sleepy fish becasue they are full all the time.

I asked her what if I ran a routine of feeding only once every 3 days and allowed them to graze on water plants.

She said that after 2 days you will find them grazing.

So all in all it seems that "lean and mean" is the way to go.
By reducing the supply the fish start to use their inniative and search out their own food supplies. Keeping the aquarium cleaner by eating algae and brighter with their movements. [ and keeping the plants vigourous in growth.]
So reducing supply increased creativity or inniative and decreases maintenance...[human analogue could be the current trend to recycle]

reminds me a bit of the street scape in Sao Paulo Brazil [ total chaos but utterly amazing.]
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I feed mine everyday. I do a pinch of food for every 4-6 inches of fish. Not including tails. I mix peas and flakes. You should at least feed them every other day.

Feeding less will still require monthly water changes after the tank is cycled. There is also substrate vacing and filter material changing.

People in pet stores generally know nothing and just want to sell you something.
 
I am having a problem keeping goldfish alive too. My son has a tank and they last about 2 weeks then one dies, soon after the other dies. I have no idea what I am doing wrong.
The tank has a filter and a pump. The water is clean and not overfeeding the fish. :shrug:

I actually have to go with him tomorrow and get a couple more.
 
Quantum Quack said:
yep bombed out on both counts...

It just struck me that gold fish have only one major purpose in life an dthat is to find food and eat.
once they do not need to find food they have no purpose to fulfill therefoe no desire to go on.
They do not have the same nature as us humans who have the ability to self control and self restraint [although sometimes i wonder...ha]
The fish can only follow their instinctive desires [ as far as we can tell ] and when one of those major desires is fullfilled they no longer have the motivation nor the insight to wait until the desire re-emerges as we as humans can.
so "lean and mean" is the strategy from now on. And "lean and mean" is appropriate for humans as well as it allows us to be vigorous and vital and mobile rather than sedantry and half asleep.
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I have to point out that you are totally wrong. One big purpose that you are missing is that they play a big role in the food chain. They do have a strong will to live. They have self control. They think and feel. They also have memory. They do more then just following instincts. They go through mood swings and even play. They are very social and their social structure goes beyond just a pecking order.
When a fish is sick you will see a mood change and when you medicate the fish you will see it becoming its self again. They do have a desire to get better.
 
shorty_37 said:
I am having a problem keeping goldfish alive too. My son has a tank and they last about 2 weeks then one dies, soon after the other dies. I have no idea what I am doing wrong.
The tank has a filter and a pump. The water is clean and not overfeeding the fish. :shrug:

I actually have to go with him tomorrow and get a couple more.
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Wait and cycle the tank first.
What type of goldfish do you plan on getting?
What is the tank set up?
 
Quantum Quack said:
nah it's just a simple 40 litre glass blowl...which i planted some "grass" in. [ can't remember the botanical name but recommended for grazing.]

Keeping only three fish small/medium sized Comets. Now of course there are only two and currently they seem quite well and active. But I haven't fed them for 24 hours and will wait another 48 before I give them any more and then only enough for a feed with in 2 minutes or so.

Trying to experiment with hunger and keeping the fish lean and active in search for food. Hopefully they will start to graze on the plants.
Intend to change 1/3 water every 5 days or so as routine.
The state of the tank was as new I guess is the best way to describe it.
The thing is I was semi-conscious of over feeding them but didn't act on that intuition.

So I wasn;t entirely surprise dwhen I found two nearly dead 2 hours later. I placed them in a quarrantine container as a precaution and one managed to recover. Changed the water in the tank removing any food remains.
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How many inches are these fish. They get up to and even over 12 inches.
 
I have to check the name of them. They were the fancier fatter ones with the bigger fins. Some were plain orange and some white and orange.

I think that tank is around 10 gallons with the pump and filter and stuff it came with.

I will find out in more detail and get back to you.
 
Randwolf said:
"The basic cause of human suffering stems from a quality humans possess, called emotions. Human suffering comes about from desire, greed and lust." - from a wiki forum.

It seems to raise a good question - do all creatures "suffer", or only humans? Do other creatures suffer if they don't know they are, or if they are not even aware that such a thing as suffering exists?

And from a broader point of view, perhaps it is once again the duality thing... Maybe without suffering, we wouldn't be able to recognize when things are going good?
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It is common sense that animals suffer. Ever step on a dogs paw? They feel pain. They also feel emotional pain. My step grandmother adopted a dog that was abused. It shows emotional damage. If you make a quick movement near it, it will flinch or even yelp. Suffering is a survival instinct.
 
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