On the metaphorical corner in which Genesis can be found, cowering

Celpha Fiael

within reason, I am superman
Registered Senior Member
It's long understood that a literal interpretation of the Creation account offered in Genesis (I should actually say "accounts" as there are two different ones) is (are) in no way congruous with fact or rational thought for that matter. Even the Pope has--as I see it--been backed into a corner and admitted that only a metaphorical reading could hope to put its foot in the door of any intellectual circle.

Though thoughtful Christians are quick to dismiss the talking snake's genuine historicity or the Garden of Eden's actual geography, they just as quickly betray the safety of this retreat. They assert that some choice aspects are quite literal and have inescapable and significant effects on our literal lives, most notably the fall of man. But if the account is admittedly a metaphor and not history, then how is it any different from say the mythology of the Greeks and the explanation it offers for the state of humanity?

Surely a Christian doesn't loose sleep over the veracity of Greek metaphors and stories used to explain (due to a lack of knowledge) surroundings and conditions. I would think this is because they understand that simply because one can construct a metaphor doesn't mean the situation it describes is therefore true. But this same criticism applies equally to the Christian metaphor in the exact same way. It is unfortunate and the point of this post to suggest that this criticism may be self-consciously slithering away from the honesty of Christian minds (at least the ones I've discussed with).

There would need to be an addition of further supporting evidence of a stronger kind to exalt this one particular account over all of the other creation myths. But in admitting that it is not literal, one has simultaneously stripped it of any potential of ever acquiring said stronger evidence.

Either the account is a metaphor which at best posits flimsy pseudo-truths or it is a grotesquely inaccurate and embarrassing speculation from extreme ignorance. Either way, it in itself holds no reason to conclude that it is true or even practical. So my question would be, with respect to what is true or at least to what we are able to perceive of truth, why still believe in it and uphold it?
 
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a talking serpent makes perfect sense

a talking serpent makes perfect sense if 'serpent' was a proper name or the name of a profession (like archer for instance).

as for geography, when people migrate to new lands they often name rivers after rivers in their homeland. the fact that the 4 rivers mentioned in genesis dont converge is therefore not surprising. the original rivers did converge. genesis describes a single river that branches into multiple rivers which end in 'heads' (lakes). this describes the white nile very nicely.
 
the fact that the 4 rivers mentioned in genesis dont converge is therefore not surprising. the original rivers did converge. genesis describes a single river that branches into multiple rivers which end in 'heads' (lakes). this describes the white nile very nicely.

Even a quick glance at Genesis would show this not to be the case. Eden would have been located in Iraq - the Euphrates/Tigris. Of course there's some hardship establishing the other two rivers, (pishon/gihon), but these tend to correlate with the Wadi Batin, (dead), and the Karun. Genesis also mentions nothing about the rivers ending in heads/lakes.

P.S Nice post Celpha.
 
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a talking serpent makes perfect sense if 'serpent' was a proper name or the name of a profession (like archer for instance).

Are we to believe that God secretly created another in the Garden and, in order to cause confusion, introduced him as a serpent? Do you actually believe this?
 
Even a quick glance at Genesis would show this not to be the case. Eden would have been located in Iraq - the Euphrates/Tigris.
P.S Nice post Celpha.

i clearly stated that people migrated from eden and named rivers around the world after the rivers in eden.

CLV Gen 2:10 And a stream is faring forth from Eden to irrigate the garden, and thence it is being parted and comes to four heads.
 
Are we to believe that God secretly created another in the Garden and, in order to cause confusion, introduced him as a serpent? Do you actually believe this?

do you really believe adam and eve were the first humans?
of course there were lots of people before adam and eve.
the geneology of adam corresponds to variouse 'king lists' around the world. adam was a ruler of eden. 'eden' might even be a form of the word 'adam'.
 
do you really believe adam and eve were the first humans?
of course there were lots of people before adam and eve.
the geneology of adam corresponds to variouse 'king lists' around the world. adam was a ruler of eden. 'eden' might even be a form of the word 'adam'.

Of course not. But your apology does horrors for expiating the Genesis account of Creationism, more than I care to address in the scope of this thread.
 
do you really believe adam and eve were the first humans?
of course there were lots of people before adam and eve.
the geneology of adam corresponds to variouse 'king lists' around the world. adam was a ruler of eden. 'eden' might even be a form of the word 'adam'.

You just denied creation... :eek:
 
if that is what the creation account says then how is that a denial of creation?

Let me rephrase that:
You just discredited the creation story. If what you say is true how do you know what did and did not really happen ?
 
it happened exactly the way it says it did.

Let me rephrase that:
You just discredited the creation story. If what you say is true how do you know what did and did not really happen ?

it happened exactly the way it says it did.
 
i clearly stated that people migrated from eden and named rivers around the world after the rivers in eden.

Well, you'd have a hard case to support given that even the word eden is Sumerian in origin, (house of purity), as is Adam and even the snake. Hell, even Abraham the founder of the jews was Sumerian - and it is quite apparent that the early portions of the OT are based upon Sumerian texts. It is readily apparent in this instance that the Euphrates/Tigris actually refers to the Euphrates and Tigris.

CLV Gen 2:10 And a stream is faring forth from Eden to irrigate the garden, and thence it is being parted and comes to four heads.

You stated that these four heads referred to lakes. There is no implication of that, (even with the term "heads"). Some other translations:

"..watering the garden and then dividing into four branches." NLT

"river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers" NAS

etc. The 'head' would be understood as the starting point of a river after branching off from another river. It does not imply a lake.
 
(I should actually say "accounts" as there are two different ones)

I know this is straying a bit, but I don't believe the bible does have two different creation accounts.
The first account (Genesis 1) is a simple overview of the creation of the universe.

Following that, Genesis 2 speaks of creation in a more detailed sense starting with:

NIV Genesis 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

The two accounts are not distinct, and do not directly contradict each other.
 
I know this is straying a bit, but I don't believe the bible does have two different creation accounts.
The first account (Genesis 1) is a simple overview of the creation of the universe.

Following that, Genesis 2 speaks of creation in a more detailed sense starting with:

NIV Genesis 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

The two accounts are not distinct, and do not directly contradict each other.

Yes this is a rather interesting point to me, I've heard interpretations that regard one as the actual creation process and the other (the first account if I remember correctly) as a clairvoyant and prophetic microcosm of all of existence. It could be debated whether or not the two accounts are holistically contradictory, I'm not sure that they aren't. I AM sure that whether the accounts are harmonious or not, this has no say on their truth and in effect answers nothing concerning my main inquiry. :)
 
Going back to your original point, I think it is more of an Allegory than a Metaphor.

An Allegory of a people's understanding of actual events - man regecting the guidance of "Gods" and grasping the gauntlet of self-determination and settling in Sumer as an agrarian civilization.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=65570
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1486999#post1486999

My point is if they were actual events, why the need for phantasmically constructed mythology concerning them? Why not evidence or an informed understanding of the actual happenings?

The same applies for whatever spiritual conditions this allegory may be alluding to. They are by definition in the realm of utter speculation and only have as much truth as one can forcefully inject into it via creative thought. Which, as we've seen through Christianity's impressive ability to contort its beliefs to fit scientific discovery, seems to be inexhaustible. Whether metaphor or allegory, the self-inflicted ambiguity is still just as potent.

(I haven't yet checked out those links, if what I'm saying is discussed in one of those then pardon my response.)
 
My point is if they were actual events, why the need for phantasmically constructed mythology concerning them? Why not evidence or an informed understanding of the actual happenings?

The same applies for whatever spiritual conditions this allegory may be alluding to. They are by definition in the realm of utter speculation and only have as much truth as one can forcefully inject into it via creative thought. Which, as we've seen through Christianity's impressive ability to contort its beliefs to fit scientific discovery, seems to be inexhaustible. Whether metaphor or allegory, the self-inflicted ambiguity is still just as potent.

(I haven't yet checked out those links, if what I'm saying is discussed in one of those then pardon my response.)

why the need for metaphor to speak of real events? there are two possible answers. one is that the political leaders of the day wouldnt allow people to speak about these things openly. the other is that the language they used was so primitive and consisted of so few words that it was necessary to use metaphors even in everday speech.

spiritual conditions have no objective reality?
 
My point is if they were actual events, why the need for phantasmically constructed mythology concerning them?

Why give the constellations names, personas and stories to time crop planting and harvesting?
Why not be more straight-forward?

Why call the posited "first" woman in the "Out of Africa" theory (a scientific theory) Mitochondrial Eve?
Was that really her name?
 
why the need for metaphor to speak of real events? there are two possible answers. one is that the political leaders of the day wouldnt allow people to speak about these things openly. the other is that the language they used was so primitive and consisted of so few words that it was necessary to use metaphors even in everday speech.

spiritual conditions have no objective reality?

You really should do some historical and religious research rather then simply cast out wild speculation.
 
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