On God and Bush . . . .

lostmind: M*W, what was your experience? what happened to make turn away? just curious.
*************
M*W: I hate to keep repeating why christianity betrayed me, but I will briefly do it again one more time. I was raised agnostic. When I had a family, I wanted to raise them in a religion. I converted to Catholicism, and became an active parishoner and catachist. I had a personal relationship with Jesus. I was fortunate to be able to travel the world. Went to The Vatican. Met Pope John Paul II, traveled to many holy sites. When in Rome, stayed in Vatican City. All I saw was pagan beliefs. Everything was about Peter and Paul. Jesus took the backseat. First, I saw no salvation in catholicism, and I fought it. I made an effort to fight off my newfound beliefs. I struggled while I was in total denial. I grieved for what I had learned. Jesus seemed to be held hostage by all the glitter and gold of the Vatican. I became disillusioned and prayed even harder for relief from what I was seeing. I went to my priest and told him what was happening to me and the thoughts I was having. First, he told me that as a woman, I shouldn't question my faith. Then he had me read everything I could in the parish library. I tried to resolve my feelings of betrayal by throwing myself into the church. I just didn't work. I could not overcome the obvious truth that Jesus didn't die like everyone was saying. It was all a mass conspiracy that had lasted 2000 years. I left the church for about four years, and felt guilty. I went back to try to reconcile my doubts about christianity. It just didn't work. I was able to understand a lot more clearly what was really going on, and I grieved, I really grieved for my 'loss.' What the priest told me, "women shouldn't be asking these kinds of questions," inspired me to research the church's history. I did, and my beliefs were confirmed that christianity as we knew it was false, and I continued to research to this day. If catholicism is false, then protestantism was even more false! Christianity was invented by Paul -- not Jesus. Jesus was just an afterthought in the whole picture. There was no way I could worship something that didn't exist (as a savior). Paul created the whole story for his own selfish purposes. I also saw that Paul was an evil man, yet, so many people worshipped him! That is where I am today. I came to sciforums knowing that Jesus wasn't a savior, because Paul had lied. It was the educated members of sciforums who put my need for a creator god to rest. I wasn't an atheist when I came here, but now I am. There is just no way a creator god could exist. It was Paul who put Peter at the head of the church -- not Jesus. There were just too many lies to believe in christianity. As I said, I continued my research, and it has brought me to where I am today. I was totally betrayed by christianity and I grieved for my loss. I am much stronger today since I have reconciled myself with the fact that christianity was an evil beast destroying its believers. I am still researching the truth -- that information that was suppressed by early church fathers holds the truth. I never felt a sense of loss when I discovered that there was no god. That was quite obvious. I pity the folks who still believe in god and christianity. They are living a lie.
 
lostmind said:
M*W:well i thought this forum is for all types of conversation. they didn't say no christians allowed on front page. are u hostile towards islam & the other religions?
Click to expand...

Lostmind I would invite you a (Christian) to this forum for I am not allowed to speak at your Church. I welcome your response and I appologise for any hostility precived. All Religions are Man Made this may be a difficult fact for you to accept but it is true. What Religion you belong to has more to do with where you are born, than the truth. If you can make a simple observation that people are mostly products of their envrionment and not much more. Then you begin to understand Religion all Religion have made benifical contributions to man kind in the past and they continue to do so to this day. However being that Religions are Man Made they are not perfect. It is a time that change is needed to bring reality into the Religious world so that we can take the good of the storys of Religious text into reality away from all the majic and supernatural myth into somthing that is based in reality so that everone on the planet can agree and only then will we have a greater chance of world peace.
 
A 2000 year old conspiracy, what a sensational claim. Yet, for what? Fired by a personal sense of betrayal (for which I am deeply sorry), you have chosen to put trust in dubious sources (not by my own judgement, by the way, but rather by the judgement of quite objective critics which outlined both the strong points and weak points of the arguments made by those sources which you gave me), against 2000 years of theologians who, if there had been a conspiracy in the beginning, would have long ago revealed it. You have chosen to put more trust in works written in the second century, rather than those written in the first century, closer to the "supposed" time of Christ. And so, because of your own personal hurt, which has strengthened your bitter resolve, you spout your beliefs as utter truth, which are founded upon mere speculation. You assert your beliefs, not supposing them to be true, but asserting that they are readily, easily, and obviously evidenced and knowable. Your unwavering assertion of it as absolute truth is as much a lie as what you claim of Christianity. Why? Because you CAN'T know it. It is a lie further exasperated by the fact that you don't really believe it because it was an intellectual discovery. Rather, you believe it because you came to believe that Christianity was false because you couldn't find a suitable answer to those questions for which you sought answers. That is most certainly a fault of the priest whom you went to, and any other person of teaching knowledge who could have helped you through that time. Your belief that there is no God is not an honest one. Why? Because it isn't built upon intellectual grounds, it's built upon anger, bitterness. You may accost me for this post if you wish, or anyone else, but I will not recant what I have said now. You spout your beliefs as absolute truth, as though you are immune to error. You say you research? Pah! You read what you want, you research with an obvious slant. You don't research for truth, you research for what you want to see. Whether Christianity is true or false is irrelevant. What is relevant is you don't seek truth honestly anymore. Perhaps at one time you did, but you cease to now. Why? Because you have convinced yourself of your own infallibility in this matter. Maybe we all do this in some way or another, maybe we all believe we're right, but I, at least, know that what I believe now, will not be what I believe in a year, or two years, or three. Why? Because what I believe now is not what I believed last year, and what I believed last year was not what I believed the year before. I know that I am wrong about what I perceive to be truth now, that it is incomplete, or maybe even entirely false in some ways. But I will not sit here and tell you that you're absolutely wrong, as you would tell me. I would tell you that the sources you have given me are dubious, who's arguments aren't strong, mostly based upon speculation, and texts further away from the event in question than those that I hold. I see wrong in my religion, yes. I see wrong in all religions. But I also recognize the truths held in each as well. Yet, because I see that wrong doesn't mean I abandon belief altogether. That is folly! If your son, daughter did something wrong, even killed someone, would you shun her, or him from your life forever? Would you lose faith in their general good-will? Of course not. Yet, is a child comparable to an organization that has effect world-wide? Of course not. But I do see the general good will in the religious, and I understand that those of ill-will don't understand what they say they believe in. I'm sorry you couldn't see past the honoring of Saints in Rome. Yet, I assert, and I have been there, beheld what you have beheld, that Christ IS the center of the Vatican. The Cross of Christ is the center of the St. Peter's Square, another Statue of Christ centers above the entrance of St. Peter's, with both Peter and Paul set within the square below. One of the first things you see as you enter the Church itself is the only painted glass in the building, a picture of a dove, representing the Holy Spirit. The main Altar, the sacrificial table (commemorating both sacrifice and unity) the central act of Christ's life, is at the forefront within the Church itself. Of course St. Peter has prominence there, it is the place from which his successor leads Christ's Church. Even then, The Pope, St. Peter, the head of the Church, is the Vicar of Christ, the voice of Christ on earth. So if prominence is given to Peter, then that prominence eminates the voice of Christ. Paul is the afterthought. Of all that I saw there, there was only one statue of Paul. That is what I consider an afterthought. Whatever is seen in any place at any time, is seen through the spyglass of personal perspective. If you saw what you saw, it's because of how your perspective has been developed. Likewise mine. I'm sorry that led you to the bitterness that you now hold, and weild in the destruction of what you BELIEVE to be a lie.
 
Well it just goes to prove there is no god if the entire planet was wafting wave upon wave towards him to fix the american presidential election.
 
Well it just goes to prove there is no god if the entire planet was wafting wave upon wave towards him to fix the american presidential election.
Click to expand...

Ah! but would god get rid of his number one nit-wit?. It seems not since Bush did have divine intervention;

08devineinervention.jpg


Godless.
 
Kerry was spouting religion clap trap too during his campaign, could he not "pray" in the correct terminology then?
 
lostmind said:
It's called choice. we dont have anything to lose for beleiving... you have the most to lose if we are right.
Click to expand...

Actually, since Christians are going on faith anyway, I could just as easily say I believe God exists and all Christians are going to Hell. In that scenario, it's you who has the most to lose by believing. Either way, niether of us has any proof to back up our claims.

By the way, you do have "something to lose." It's called living life as a sane, happy, intellectually curious individual with an open mind.

How strange that, to some, saying "I believe in life before death" is somehow heretical and yet saying "I believe in life after death" is incredibly noble.

I guess I'll never figure that one out.

Ciao. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top