Chevron's Jack 2, Chevron's Tahiti, British Petroleum's Thunder Horse, British Petroleum's Atlantis, White Tiger and Black Lion in Vietnam.
Etc, etc, etc.
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Oil Crisis
- Thread starter ck27
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Etc, etc, etc.
Oilismastery is correct about this. (Only thing correct he has said, I think.)
This fact proves two things:
(1)Oil does not decompose at these GREATER depths. - I.e. the 15,000 foot limit Oilismastery often cites as the limiting depth to avoid decomposition is WRONG NONSENSE.
AND
(2)that, oil found at that depth, can NOT be of a-biotic origin, because there is no way unbound hydrogen could be there in sufficient quantity. A very small amount, much, much, much,... less than the helium, is there. That tiny bit of hydrogen is, like the helium, generated by radioactive decay, but very quickly forms some chemical compound. The He, being a "noble gas" can not form compound. So it is a very minor componet found in a few natural gas wells. The spontanious decay with proton emmision is also rare compared to the emmision of and alpha particle (the helium nucleus). Thus billions of times more oil than the available hydrogen could form is recovered from deep wells every day. A significant amout, even a detectable amount, of a-biotic oil is impossible nonsense.
For more detailed discussion, including some math about how Earth escape velocity is easily achieved even today by hydrogen (and much more so when Earth was moltent) see:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1568269&postcount=272
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Who said 15,000 feet was the limit? And who says they are actually drilling to that depth and finding any oil?
That article only suggests they are contaminants from sedimentary layers. It offers no actual data from relevant studies, nor any way to test the hypothesis.
No, we use cellulose, from eucalyptus trees. Short and long chain hydrocarbons and sugars and suchlike, under higher temperature conditions, break up and lose the O and H, leaving carbon.
For starters, how does it get up from 100km deep, which is in the mantle? Secondly, how does it avoid any kind of break up at lower temperatures and pressures.
Thirdly, laboratory demonstrations do not necessarily accord with actual conditions, especially when they involve 99.9% pure marble and FeO. How often do these occur together in the mantle?
Finally, even if it were correct, there is no evidence that any oil reservoirs in the world are filling up at a rate fast enough to replenish oil reserves enough to stave off peak oil. This is a small problem you run into when you bash peak oilers- you have no evidence that oil is not being used up faster than it is being produced.
Also, the interesting thing is that your theory gives no suggestion where to actually drill.
I picked BP's Atlantis field, and cannot seem to find any evidence to suggest it has found oil at 30,000 feet. Perhaps oim can provide some?
Also, is that vertical feet, from sea or land level, or does it include horizontal boring? They are doing that a lot these days, sliding wells down then across almost horizontally, because it gives better access to some deposits.
Also, is that vertical feet, from sea or land level, or does it include horizontal boring? They are doing that a lot these days, sliding wells down then across almost horizontally, because it gives better access to some deposits.
This wired article talks about the Jack field going 30,000 foot down, but also about how it will cook off into methane and Co2 at higher temperatures:
http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/magazine/15-09/mf_jackrig?currentPage=3
http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/magazine/15-09/mf_jackrig?currentPage=3
Kenneth Deffeyes and Richard Heinberg.
Chevron, British Petroleum, Petrobras, Transocean, Schlumberger, etc, etc, etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Wegener
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Gold
??? http://www.slb.com/content/services/resources/casestudies/testing/perforating_system_chevron_gom.asp
http://www.rense.com/general63/refil.htm
I agree that we are consuming more than we produce. We are only producing 85 million barrels per day right now and we are consuming 88 million barrels per day. However we will produce more than 85 million barrels per day. That's where the peak oilers are wrong. There are factors besides geological ones causing the waning of the fuel era, for example electricity.
Deeper. www.deepwater.com
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In post 251 I told of Petrobras's activity (including the discovery wells in the ultra deep Jack field) as follows:
" ... Company {Petrobras} is operating in four different regions in the gulf sedimentary basin .. the cottonwood project ... is lifting production from a Miocene age reservior ... out put is 20,000 b/d for two wells... In ultra deep water.. four discovery wells in sub-Tertiary reservoirs ...proven prductivity ... long duration test....part of the Jack field project...etc on and on with geological /biologic terms I am not very much up on. ..."
Petrobras was / is the pioneer, both in the technology for ultra deep wells and in very deep ocean (thru 5000 meters of water now) and the discoverer of the Jack field in the Gulf - four years ago - by hitting oil, although many others thought it was a good prospect also.
Why continue to cite them - they have been PROVEN WRONG by fact that oil does not all decompose even at 30,000 feet depth. - That does seem to be about the limit as some does decompose into CO2 and methane mainly, I think, from memory.
Now that your main argument for abiotic oil is destroyed, Please tell what reason, if any, makes you think a-biotic oil exists. Please also be sure to explain where the ESSENTAIL unbound chemically hydrogen comes from to form the H-C bonds of oil. Conceptually at some temperature the much stronger H-O bond in water can be thermally broken, but under those conditions, the weaker H-C bond in oil does not stand a chance of surviving (or even briefly forming).
Thank you and you're welcome.
?
LOL ?
I refer you to my comments and links posted above.
http://oilismastery.blogspot.com/
He said that your main argument for abiotic oil - biogenic oil could not form at those depths because thermodynamic considerations mandated that long-chain biological molecules would be broken down into methane - was apparently based on some erroneous assumptions.IAC said:
I was more pondering your repeated insistence on no biological desposits existing past 7500 feet, your agreement that there hasn't been enough biotic residue interred on the planet to account for the volume of oil found, and so forth.
If you recall, we still have pending on this forum the expanding earth hypothesis for explaining Noah's Flood.
OK. I went there and read:
"... the hydrocarbons are generating now, moving through the overlying strata now, building the reservoirs now and spilling out into the ocean now..."
I added the bold (to focus atention on it). To generate/ form hydrocarbons, you MUST have unbound hydrogen, but there is none* deep in the Earth. There the very reactive hydrogen is all chemically bound to other atoms (almost exclusively oxygen, to be water with a very strong H-O bond) For abut the fifth time, I ask you how is this strong bond broken? If you respond "Thermally," I then ask why the weaker C-H bond in oil is not compleley destroyed?
You are just totaly illogical or very ignorant - hard to tell which.
------------------------
*Actually from time to time an atom of H dose appear from radioactive decay of heavy elements, but this happens less frequently than the radiogenic production of helium. Unlike the helium which accumulates (because it is an inert gas) the just created hydrogen quickly chemically reacts. Most probably reducing some metal oxide like Fe2O3 and becomes initially the OH radical and then is part of a water molecule in less than a minute after the radioactive decay that produced it. Thus, the free hydrogen is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH,.....MUCH less available to form oil than the concentration of helium.
Again I ask:
Where does the free (unbound) hydrogen come from deep in the Earth?
It is ESSENTAIL to form a-biotic oil (but DOSE NOT EXIST, deep in the Earth.)
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More on ocean trenches and their relation to biotic formation of oil:
"... The Tethyan Trench extended at its greatest during Late Cretaceous to Paleocene, from what is now Greece to the Western Pacific Ocean. Subduction at the Tethyan Trench probably caused the continents Africa and India to move towards Eurasia, which resulted in the opening of Indian Ocean. When the Arabian and Indian plates collided with Eurasia, the Tethys Ocean and the trench closed. Remnants of the Tethyan Trench can still be found today in Southeastern Europe and southwest of Southeast Asia. ..."
FROM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethyan_Trench
It is highly probable that the oil of the Middle East comes from the creatures (algee included) that lived in the now non-existant Tethyan Ocean more than 200 million years ago. - Note the location of the Tethyan Trench went thru Iraq and Iran in the arc from Greece to westen Pacific, but the deepest part, where most biologic sedements were deposited and where firm evidence of it still exist, was the central section (Now called Iraq and Iran). Also why China is finding oil in it western province and now building a 1700 km large diameter pipeline to exploit it. (Part of reason China is consumming about 2/3 of all the steel the world is now producing!) Western oil companies have suppected for decades that this region of China would be very oil rich, but did not try to even explore it for three main reasons:
(1) It is very rough moutainous terrain (northen side of the Hymalayian mountains) - Same geology*, a continuation of those mountains into NE Iran and Afganistan, as where Iran's oil and gas is. (Possibly Afganastan also has oil in its NE mountains - that may explain at least part of why US is fighting there.)
(2) China owns it - not known to be friendly to western oil companies.
(3) Pipeline required to get it to Ocean for export is too long, expensive, and must pass thru equally unfriendly countries (and the Moslem "war lords" ruling the region as in Afganistan's & Iran's NE mountains) if going to the Persian Gulf.
Someday, China may not only be self-sufficent in oil, but a significant exporter. The oil of Burma**, which is keeping that badly mis managed country economically sound despite buying large quantities of militray supplies from China, is probably the eastern most end of the big oil band China will soon be tapping. All thanks to those marine creature who died more than 200 million years ago!
-------------------
*The african and Indian tectonic plates collided with the Eurasian plate and threw up this large mountain chain as they subducted under the Eurasian plate. The subduction was sloping downward so as to favor oil flow into the western side, but as it no doubt was highly fractured China will have a lot too, perhaps even more as the Eurasian plate may provide better traps as was less destroyed in the collision. (Did not subduct, but rose on the western side to become these mountains. -I am not a geologist, but that is my understanding. - Perhaps someone can amplify or correct as needed?)
**As an illustration, not that any more are needed, as to how much big oil controls the US behind the scenes with GWB as "FRONT MAN" note that even the new "tougher" sanctions against Burma being proposed by US to UN Exclude any interence with the purchase of oil from the generals ruling Burma! (India imports this oil from Burma so is also opposed to stopping its flow. I think I read that India is even now still building a new pipeline to Burma for its transport! I am sure that India is working on reopening WWII's "Burma road," as I made a new thread about that last year.)
"... The Tethyan Trench extended at its greatest during Late Cretaceous to Paleocene, from what is now Greece to the Western Pacific Ocean. Subduction at the Tethyan Trench probably caused the continents Africa and India to move towards Eurasia, which resulted in the opening of Indian Ocean. When the Arabian and Indian plates collided with Eurasia, the Tethys Ocean and the trench closed. Remnants of the Tethyan Trench can still be found today in Southeastern Europe and southwest of Southeast Asia. ..."
FROM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethyan_Trench
It is highly probable that the oil of the Middle East comes from the creatures (algee included) that lived in the now non-existant Tethyan Ocean more than 200 million years ago. - Note the location of the Tethyan Trench went thru Iraq and Iran in the arc from Greece to westen Pacific, but the deepest part, where most biologic sedements were deposited and where firm evidence of it still exist, was the central section (Now called Iraq and Iran). Also why China is finding oil in it western province and now building a 1700 km large diameter pipeline to exploit it. (Part of reason China is consumming about 2/3 of all the steel the world is now producing!) Western oil companies have suppected for decades that this region of China would be very oil rich, but did not try to even explore it for three main reasons:
(1) It is very rough moutainous terrain (northen side of the Hymalayian mountains) - Same geology*, a continuation of those mountains into NE Iran and Afganistan, as where Iran's oil and gas is. (Possibly Afganastan also has oil in its NE mountains - that may explain at least part of why US is fighting there.)
(2) China owns it - not known to be friendly to western oil companies.
(3) Pipeline required to get it to Ocean for export is too long, expensive, and must pass thru equally unfriendly countries (and the Moslem "war lords" ruling the region as in Afganistan's & Iran's NE mountains) if going to the Persian Gulf.
Someday, China may not only be self-sufficent in oil, but a significant exporter. The oil of Burma**, which is keeping that badly mis managed country economically sound despite buying large quantities of militray supplies from China, is probably the eastern most end of the big oil band China will soon be tapping. All thanks to those marine creature who died more than 200 million years ago!
-------------------
*The african and Indian tectonic plates collided with the Eurasian plate and threw up this large mountain chain as they subducted under the Eurasian plate. The subduction was sloping downward so as to favor oil flow into the western side, but as it no doubt was highly fractured China will have a lot too, perhaps even more as the Eurasian plate may provide better traps as was less destroyed in the collision. (Did not subduct, but rose on the western side to become these mountains. -I am not a geologist, but that is my understanding. - Perhaps someone can amplify or correct as needed?)
**As an illustration, not that any more are needed, as to how much big oil controls the US behind the scenes with GWB as "FRONT MAN" note that even the new "tougher" sanctions against Burma being proposed by US to UN Exclude any interence with the purchase of oil from the generals ruling Burma! (India imports this oil from Burma so is also opposed to stopping its flow. I think I read that India is even now still building a new pipeline to Burma for its transport! I am sure that India is working on reopening WWII's "Burma road," as I made a new thread about that last year.)
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Carcano
Valued Senior Member
The Keebler Elves?
Seriously, Thomas Gold seemed to propose an endolithic biosphere, but it doesnt make sense because this organism cannot survive in huge colonies at depths where the temperature exceeds 120 degrees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endolith
"Endoliths have been found in rock down to a depth of 3 km (9,600 feet), though it is unknown if that is their limit.
The main threat to their survival seems not to result from the pressure at such depth, but from the increased temperature. Judging from hyperthermophile organisms, the temperature limit is at about 120°C (the recently-discovered Strain 121 can reproduce at 121°C), which limits the possible depth to 4-4.5 km below the continental crust, and 7 or 7.5 km below the ocean floor."
OK I read that and the links it has:
From the first of these second stage links:
Abstract: "... Therefore, hydrogen in the mantle could be present in the form of TRACE hydrogen in nominally anhydrous mantle
minerals. The hydrogen and the other trace elements in mantle olivines, orthopyroxenes, clinopyroxenes, and garnets ..." {is water of hydration, interstitial water in these crystals, etc. -I.e. The hydrogen bound to oxygen in water. You still lack any explanatin of how the H-O bond is broken yet the weaker C-H bond is stable!}
and page 840's first full paragraph tells:
that this TRACE of hydrogen is strongly correlated with three metals, aluminum, chromium and iron. (can not copy it exactly for reason unknown.) This is exactly what I told you in my footnoteof post 271, which was:
"... *Actually from time to time an atom of H dose appear from radioactive decay of heavy elements, but this happens less frequently than the radiogenic production of helium. Unlike the helium which accumulates (because it is an inert gas) the just created hydrogen quickly chemically reacts. Most probably reducing some metal oxide like Fe2O3 and becomes initially the OH radical and then is part of a water molecule in less than a minute after the radioactive decay that produced it. Thus, the free hydrogen is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH,.....MUCH less available to form oil than the concentration of helium. ..."
I will not waste time reading any more of your nonsense. You clearly still do not understand the big and important difference between hydrogen bound up in water and that which is free to chemically react with carbon to abiotically form oil.
If by not reading, I missed any indication of there being free (UNBOUND) hydrogen down there (other than the radiogentic orgin TRACES, I did and your artice does speak of) please you cut and past from these links ANYTHING that even vagely indicates that there is unbound hydrogen available in the deep Earth (50,000 feet) to form a-biotic oil that is seeping up and being recovered now by ultra deep wells.
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Yes Tom was not a fool as Oilismastry appears to be from his consistently nosense, only assertive, illogical, posts. When TG was espousing "a-biotic" oil there were no "ultra-deep" wells to embarase his a-biotric idea. I was at Cornell when Tom Gold was there and heard his speak on two occasions. I closely followed the progress of his "make or break" well drilled in Sweeden. (It failed dramatically* - only a hint of oil, which later proven to have come from the drill pipe string itself!) I agreed (and still do) with TG that at least some hydrogen down to about 10,000 feet is produce by microscopic creatures processing organic matter of the endolithic biosphere, but by definition, that is NOT "a-biotic."The Keebler Elves?
Seriously, Thomas Gold seemed to propose an endolithic biosphere, but it doesnt make sense because this organism cannot survive in huge colonies at depths where the temperature exceeds 120 degrees....
As some microscopic creatures do produce various lipids, I could even imagine that some could produce something resembling "oil" down to something like 10,000 feet, but again Oilismastery's own stupidity has trapped him as he insists that this oil, if any, can only seep up. I.e. with essentially no free (unbound) hydrogen at 30,000 or greater feet, he has no way to form his "a-biotic oil" and even if he is calling that which may be produce above 10,000 feet by living organisms, "a-biotic oil," he has rulled out the possibility that it could seep down and now be being extracted by the ultra-deep wells.
How dumb can he be? :shrug:
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*It was drilled in an ancient meteor impact site because below the sealing cap rock (which was melted by the impact) that would trap the oil, there was predicted to be highly shock fractured rocks. This was the case and caused the end of the drill string to keep braking off, but that was the only part of prediction that was confirmed - not the "gusher of oil" flowing up thru these cracks that TG and his financial backers expected.
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You're right Billy there is no hydrogen on the Earth. The only hydrogen that ever bonded to carbon in the entire universe was on the Earth 150 million years ago and 90 million years ago. Fossils are the only way we can get hydrogen and carbon to bond. That's why Montana has the most oil reserves in the world. The reason why Titan has so much methane is because there was so many dinosaurs and algae on the outer planets. Those oil companies are idiots for drilling past 7000 feet and discovering massive reservoirs at 30,000 feet in igneous rock.
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Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Please link an example of ONE MASSIVE oil reservoir at 30,000 ft in igneous rock.
And I dont mean from your own blog, thanks.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Now here is something worth looking into:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/ap_huygens_update_050127.html
"Based on data collected by Huygens' instruments, Sushil Atreya, a professor of planetary science at the University of Michigan in the United States, believes a hydro-geological process between water and rocks deep inside the moon could be producing the methane.
"I think the process is quite likely in the interior of Titan," Atreya said in a telephone interview.
The process is called serpentinisation and is basically the reaction between water and rocks at 100 to 400 degrees Celsius (212 to 752 degrees Fahrenheit), he said."
You are an amazing slow and ignorant, not repeating anything I said.
If you want to buy a tank of 99.99 %pure H2, you can -It is made electrolytically everyday and this process yields very pure hydrogen automatically. Montana and what is now the entire mid west was once under a sea with huge organic accumulating on it floor's mud. etc.
Many living organism make hydrogen, but it is too reactive to stay as H2 for very long. If organic material (componds that always contain both carbon and hydrogen) is prevented from oxidation (for example by being burried quickly and deep in a mud slide), you can at least expect methane as they decompose. If subjected to high pressure, denser products, like coal or oil are slowly favored.
For a modern example, eatable oils can be "hydrogenated" into butter like greases. With other processes of heat and chemisty, "bio-diesel," a very petroleum like oil can be made. Processes like this also occur naturally today, and did a hundred years ago, and a 100,000 years ago (actually continuously on Earth for millions of years and do make petroleum as organic matterial is burried naturally and subducted by tectonic movements to regions of the deeper Earth where temperature and pressure are indeed now making petroleum but much too slowly for man to harvest at economic rates. Note however, it all is basically the controlled (or at least oxygen free) decomposition of ORGANIC MATERIAL. - NOT an "a-biotic" oil producing process.
I will not reply to you more. - I do enjoy teaching and have considerable patience with "slow students," but there are some idiots that are incapable of learning, or even repeating me accurately - you apprear to be one.
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