Occupation and the International Court

Under what conditions Asguard? I ask because the international community collectively punished Iraq for a number of years with their sanctions and embargo. Also where does China and the US stand under the 'geneva convention'? Why have they not been convicted of 'war crimes'?
 
Under what conditions Asguard? I ask because the international community collectively punished Iraq for a number of years with their sanctions and embargo. Also where does China and the US stand under the 'geneva convention'? Why have they not been convicted of 'war crimes'?

simple, though most countries have universal criminal law (ironically the US is an exception to this) the world doesnt yet have universally enforced international criminal law. this fact doest change the facts of the crime anymore than the russian mob buying there way out of murder doesnt change the crime of murder
 
simple, though most countries have universal criminal law (ironically the US is an exception to this) the world doesnt yet have universally enforced international criminal law.

Exactly which is the whole point. You will never have it enforced as long as there is such a thing as 'sovereignty' and as long as there are stronger nations. Its impossible to get a giant to budge on something it simply refuses to do and we cannot force sovereign nations to do something if they are unwilling.

Personally I would never give that much power to the UN, they are way too incompetent.
 
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News update and a great example of the problem with international investigations, commissions, recommendations and enforcement under international law and why these institutions are ultimately so weak:


Israel will reject a proposed international commission to investigate its deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla, its ambassador to the US has said.
Michael Oren told US broadcaster Fox News that Israel has the ability and the right to investigate its own military.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon had earlier telephoned Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu with the proposal.
Nine people died when Israeli commandos stormed the Turkish ship last week.

"We are rejecting an international commission. We are discussing with the Obama administration a way in which our inquiry will take place," Mr Oren told Fox News Sunday.

He said Israel would not apologise for the incident. Eight of those killed were Turkish, and the ninth had joint US-Turkish nationality.
Mr Netanyahu was due to discuss Mr Ban's proposal with senior cabinet ministers on Sunday.

But Mr Oren said: "Israel is a democratic nation. Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10250354.stm


Sovereign states hold the right to tell these international institutions to 'fuck off'. Israel is a member state of the UN and it still has the right to say 'fuck off'.

So ask yourself this, what value has a law if it can be ignored? What weight does it have if it cannot be enforced? You can use economic means and threats of isolation, the problem becomes if those regimes can actually weather those sanctions. One thing we know about sanctions, there is always a friend in the wings that makes sure you can survive ie. China and N. Korea
 
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Let's try a little exercise. Here is an interview between Al Jazeera and a maritime legal expert, Douglas Guilfoyle, from the University of London. I will not use my source as it is much more cut and dry and lays the stacks in favor of Israel and I don't want Sam to say its biased so let's use the 'Is it legal?' interview from a source she respects.

Here's the exercise:

Read through what is said and ascertain Israel's position and try and figure out where Israel's legality begins and ends BUT pretend that Israel is 'guilty' (I happen to think the opposite but let's say for this exercise that they are). They are guilty and I want you to think of the 'loopholes' you could find, as a layman who is reading into the law as this man has it, that would allow them to get away with the blockade, if they were indeed 'guilty'. Then I would have you look at what mistakes the opposing Hamas controlled Gaza could have made that would allow the Israeli's to get away with the blockade LEGALLY and what is says to you about the use of the 'law'. Ok. Basically I want you to pretend your defending a guy you know who has done wrong against prosecution because you are a lawyer and that's your job. Then I by its side I want you to place the prosecution argument in opposition to the blockade in the favor of Gaza.

Leave your sentiments at the door! It won't help you here. You have to simply look at what you believe is 'clear and convincing' in terms of law and its interpretation(s):p Just use the article as a guideline, its will offer the parameters you are working within. You will be surprised with what you can come up with even if you are not fully informed of the law, which you can check in terms of details online, where even there you will become aware of gaps wide enough to come up with an argument in either direction. Have fun! What you will find is that laws as written by western tradition are never air tight, they are not supposed to be. They are open ALWAYS written to encompass a variety of interpretations. What trumps the variety of interpretations is precedence. So have fun!

Get, ready, Go!


AJ: There has been extensive debate since Monday about whether Israel's decision to raid the Gaza aid flotilla was legal. Douglas Guilfoyle, a maritime legal expert at the University College of London, says the raid itself could have been legal under international law - but only if the Gaza blockade itself is legitimate.

AL J; A lot of people are talking about whether or not Israel had any right to intercept [the ships].

Guilfoyle: Whether or not Israel had a right to intercept the ship on the high seas depends on whether it was engaged in a legal blockade. A blockade is a recognized tool of warfare that could allow the stopping and search of a ship on the high seas, but there are a number of requirements. There needs to be an armed conflict; the limits of the blockade need to be defined and properly publicized; and most importantly, a blockade should not proceed if it violates the principle of proportionality, if it inflicts excessive damage on the civilian population in relation to the concrete military advantage expected.

If those requirements were met, then yes, a ship could have been intercepted on the high seas, if there was a suspicion it was attempting to breach the blockade.

AL J: So who decides if a blockade is legal? If that's all it comes down to, it would appear to be an entirely subjective decision.

G: Well, each state is going to take its own view on whether or not it meets the requirements of international law. But I suppose a good metric is whether it's been accepted by other states, and there's certainly been a lot of condemnation of this blockade.

AL J: Where does that leave the international community, if it wants to pursue any kind of action against Israel?

G: The principle options would lie, I think, with the United Nations and with condemnation from the Security Council and action by other United Nations organs. I note that the Security Council has already called, this morning I believe, for a cessation of the blockade, referring to it as counterproductive and wrong.

AL J: It all depends to what extent Israel is prepared to cooperate, and we haven't seen a great deal of that when it comes to investigations in the past. But if another country wanted to launch an investigation... would it have any means by which to subpoena anybody in Israel, to force them to hand over what it considers to be crucial evidence or statements?

G: Well, it could certainly attempt to do so. That's going to turn on the national criminal law of the investigating state, or the investigating body. Compelling evidence from another state is difficult; it requires international cooperation, and may run into issues of state immunity or state secrecy when you're trying to get information out of a government.

If there's a United Nations investigation, in theory, the Security Council could call upon Israel to co-operate fully, and under the UN charter, Israel would be obligated to co-operate with that decision.

AL J: When it comes to establishing this blockade, a nation had to make announcements, it had to inform the international community that this was happening, that it was at war, etc. From what you've been able to learn, did any of that happen as far as Israel was concerned?

G: It's difficult, and I think something that commentators and international lawyers need to look at closely: whether there was proper notification of this blockade. It's been going on for a number of years, and normally if there had been notifications to what we call neutral powers, you'd expect [them] to show up in things like instructions to the merchant fleet in potentially affected flagged states. I haven't seen any of that; that doesn't mean it's not there, but it requires further investigation.

The real issue, to my mind, is the question of damage to the civilian population. If you have UN agencies saying insufficient aid is getting through to Gaza - and I've seen one BBC report saying what's getting through is less than one-quarter what they need on a daily basis - that alone, to my mind, raises serious concerns about the legality of the blockade, even if the formal requirements for notification have been complied with.

AL J: Where do you see this going now? Is there any point in anybody pursuing this legally, given the fact that, as many of us know, Israel has ignored countless UN resolutions over the course of the last 30-40 years?

G: That's a difficult question. I think... what speaking [about the] law does, in this situation, is it forms a channel through which political pressure is applied. And it certainly seems there's been an awful lot more pressure arising out of this incident in the international community, and it would seem within Israel itself.

So maybe this is an occasion we might see some kind of breakthrough, or at least a lessening of the blockade that is in place.
 
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When power in a land and over the people in a land passes to a hostile foreign force, mostly a military one. The Hague Conventions distinguish between military occupation and acquisition of territory by force, but that is just semantics.

No it is not!!! Never mistake that distinction because it will be a legal distinction, semantics in law is everything.
 
lucy said:
Personally I would never give that much power to the UN, they are way too incompetent
They managed to disarm Saddam Hussein - deprive him of his entire nuclear and chemical weapons capability - much more efficiently and safely than the US did.

The most obvious of several possible comparisons.

The UN does not work well because the US regards it as a tool, not a governing body, and useless except as it advances parochial US interests. The loss of US backing for the UN, soon after it showed signs of acting as chartered, may be remembered as the primary cause of the loss of a major opportunity. But probably it will be simply forgotten, and when the consequences develop people will talk about the inevitability of such events.

At one time, even the people of the US thought that new, different, and better ways of governing ourselves were possible - that the US might be an example of them, show that they work.
SAM said:
The Hague Conventions distinguish between military occupation and acquisition of territory by force, but that is just semantics.
The difference between the US occupying Japan after WWII, and the US acquiring Japan by force in WWII, is fairly significant, no?
 
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When did they do this to Hussein? When did they disarm him? Saddam has used chemical weapons on the Kurds quite successfully without any intervention. Saddam had never had a full nuclear program that he could sustain so its a mute point really!

Iceaura: The UN does not work well because the US regards it as a tool, not a governing body, and useless except as it advances parochial US interests. The loss of US backing for the UN, soon after it showed signs of acting as chartered, may be remembered as the primary cause of the loss of a major opportunity. But probably it will be simply forgotten, and when the consequences develop people will talk about the inevitability of such events.

Well you now say things that don't make much sense. The US is a member state as well as being a security council member, it has the SAME powers as all other members which means they all look out for their own interests and that of their minions. That's how it works. So for you to talk about 'US parochial interests' is naive because all nations who are on the security council have this power. Here's another notion you should rid yourself of, that the idea of, the UN is not a 'governing body' it is a 'tool', so wake yourself up from that wet dream quickly! The US has refused to pay their dues to the UN because they know its waste and its reliance on them for resources, such as military influence plus political weight. The UN doesn't have any power as a collection of loosely aligned nations under a charter they cannot wholly apply to themselves nor even afford. Why should the US pay for it? The UN is funded by its members, their wealthiest nations with the most resources are the main players of the security council and obviously enough they are also the nations with the most military might.

Israel is a member state. Palestine, The West Bank or Gaza are not member states.

You can reform a nation state but its difficult to reform the UN. It simply has too many players and it was not designed to accommodate more than a few large players who control the outcome of events (the security council)
 
Has the Tibetan matter been brought to the ICC?

No, the states relevant to that conflict are not parties to the Rome Statute, and so the ICC has no jurisdiction there. Likewise with the Kashmiris. It is exactly to avoid international prosecution arising from those conflicts that China and India have refused to sign on to the Rome Statute.

Also, matters aren't brought to the ICC by individuals - the crimes for which the ICC has jurisdiction are collective in nature, and so no individual charge would substantiate them anyway - but rather by state governments who are party to the treaty, by the UNSC, or by the ICC prosecutor (who can request authorization to hold an inquest.
 
Also, matters aren't brought to the ICC by individuals - the crimes for which the ICC has jurisdiction are collective in nature, and so no individual charge would substantiate them anyway - but rather by state governments who are party to the treaty, by the UNSC, or by the ICC prosecutor (who can request authorization to hold an inquest.

What about occupied states who are not permitted the status quo to obtain recourse to such legal interventions? What is the justice system available to them?
 
What about occupied states who are not permitted the status quo to obtain recourse to such legal interventions? What is the justice system available to them?

Not the ICC, anyway.

There is, generally speaking, no larger "system" available to states, in the way that justice systems are "available" to citizens of states which provide such. International law is a patchwork of agreements between states, and nothing more. It is not a one-world government that provides universal systems of justice, defense, etc. It is a system of consensual arrangements between entities which do provide such systems on local scales. Think of it as an entente between competing crime families and you'll be a lot closer to the truth.
 
lucy said:
When did they do this to Hussein? When did they disarm him?
Sometime between the time when he definitely had the stuff (as the pundit put it, we know he had it: we kept the receipts) and the US invasion, when he didn't -

just as the UN inspectors had reported, as a consequence of their having brought about the destruction of the stuff piecemeal over a few years.

They acquired superior intelligence, as well as exhibiting greater effectiveness. Compare with the US, which wrecked the entire country while actually losing control of the bad stuff the UN had locked up.

lucy said:
The US - - has the SAME powers as all other members - - - and that of their minions. That's how it works. So for you to talk about 'US parochial interests' is naive because all nations who are on the security council have this power. - - - - The US has refused to pay their dues to the UN because they know its waste and its reliance on them for resources, such as military influence plus political weight. - - -
Uh, hello?

lucy said:
Here's another notion you should rid yourself of, that the idea of, the UN is not a 'governing body' it is a 'tool',
Reading comprehension 101.
 
I have a legal question. In an occupied territory, who determines the legal right of residency of the occupied peoples? Is it the occupying regime? What does international law say about the right to live in your own home under occupation?

Or is this another aspect of human rights which is not significant enough for the international court?

Can the occupying regime legally strip the people of their residency rights and simply make them refugees in their own land?
 
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