Occupation and the International Court

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
Considering that the international court is supposed to protect human rights, can a people under occupation take their condition to the international court?

Is there a precedent for this?

The International Criminal Court (French: Cour Pénale Internationale; commonly referred to as the ICC or ICCt)[1] is a permanent tribunal to prosecute individuals for genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime of aggression (although it cannot currently exercise jurisdiction over the crime of aggression).

Why is there currently no jurisdiction over crimes of aggression?
 
Considering that the international court is supposed to protect human rights, can a people under occupation take their condition to the international court?

The ICC was specifically set up to deal with war criminals.

Why is there currently no jurisdiction over crimes of aggression?

Define "crimes of aggression".
 
Well there is this Sam but nothing came of it:

(AFP) – Jul 9, 2008

MADRID (AFP) — A Tibetan rights organisation said Wednesday it would file an extension to a lawsuit in Spain that accuses top Chinese leaders of genocide.
The extension would be presented Thursday in Spain's top criminal court, which since June, 2006 has been hearing the case against seven Chinese leaders, the non-governmental Tibet Support Committee said.

The original suit accuses the leaders, including former president Jiang Zemin and former prime minister Li Peng, of torture and crimes against humanity as well as genocide allegedly carried out in Tibet during the 1980s.

"This extension to the lawsuit denounces the new wave of oppression that began in Tibet on 10th March 2008, and just goes to prove that acts of genocide continue to be committed against the Tibetan people," the Tibet Support Committee said in a statement.

Unrest in the Tibetan region erupted on March 14 after four days of peaceful protests against Chinese rule.

The Tibetan government-in-exile says 203 Tibetans were killed and about 1,000 hurt in China's crackdown. Beijing insists that only one Tibetan was killed, and has in turn accused the "rioters" of killing 21 people.

"The extension to the lawsuit also denounces China's manipulation of the global war against terrorism in its attempt to justify and cover up crimes against humanity committed against the Tibetan people," the statement said.

The group also denounced "the lukewarm attitude of most of the international community when it comes to demanding effective protection of human rights."

The suit was admitted under the principle of "universal competence" adopted by the Spanish judiciary in 2005 and under which Spanish courts can hear cases of genocide and crimes against humanity wherever they occur and whatever the nationality of the defendant.

China's opponents accuse it of systematic political, cultural and religious oppression in the remote and devoutly Buddhist Himalayan region.

China has condemned the accusations of genocide in Tibet as slander and it has accused Madrid of trying to interfere in its administration of the Himalayan region.

China has ruled Tibet since 1951, a year after sending troops in to "liberate" the region.
In a separate development, Spain's top anti-terrorist Judge Baltasar Garzon also hit out China's crackdown in Tibet.

"Crimes against humanity have occurred" against Tibet, for which there had been "no judicial response" on the part of the Chinese authorities, he told a summer school at the Complutense University in the town of San Lorenzo de el Escorial outside Madrid.
He called on the international community to "put a stop to this situation."

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gE3HbZz1xzBVSPsRCqlkhqpZJC1w

Meanwhile the international community has been responding with resolutions like this since '59 (pay close attention to the resolution in Dec. 65 since India had some interesting comments to make):

21 October 1959

Resolution 1353 (XIV) called for "respect for the fundamental human rights of the Tibetan people and for their distinctive cultural and religious life." Adopted by 45 votes to nine, 26 abstentions; Britain abstained.

12 December 1961

Resolution 1723 (XVI) called for "the cessation of practices which deprive the Tibetan people of their fundamental human rights and freedom including their rights to self-determination." It also expressed "the hope that member states will make all possible efforts as appropriate towards achieving the purpose of the present resolution." Adopted by 56 votes to 11, with 29 abstentions; Britain (after initial doubts) approved.

December 1965

Resolution 2079 (XX) renewed the call for "the cessation of all practices which deprive the Tibetan people of the human rights and fundamental freedoms which they have always enjoyed." Adopted by 43 votes to 26, with 22 abstentions. On this occasion the Indian delegate accused the Chinese of trying "to obliterate the Tibetan people" and of suppression that "surpasses anything that colonialists have done in the past to the people they ruled as slaves." Britain supported the resolution.

1971-1989

The People's Republic of China joined the UN in 1971, and the Tibetan question was next mentioned in March 1985, by the International Fellowship of Reconciliation, a Non-Governmental Organisation. The Tibet issue was not raised by a government until March 1989, when Canada and Holland expressed concern about the situation in Tibet.

23 August 1991

The UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities adopted Resolution 1991/L.19 to express concern at "continuing reports of violations of fundamental human rights and freedoms which threaten the distinct cultural, religious and national identity of the Tibetan people". The resolution called on the Chinese Government "fully to respect the fundamental rights and freedoms of the Tibetan people". The resolution was passed by nine votes to seven, with four abstentions.

This was the first UN Resolution on Tibet since 1965 and the first formal statement on Tibet by a UN body since the People's Republic replaced Taiwan as the representative of China in 1971.

On 4 March 1992 a draft resolution on China's abuses of human rights including a specific mention of the treatment of Tibetans was proposed at the UN Commission on Human Rights. A vote on a proposal "not to take a vote" was taken: 27 for, 15 against.

March 1994

China persuades the UN for the fourth year running to reject a modestly-worded resolution criticising its human rights record. 20 votes to 16 ruled that "no action" be taken on the resolution; 17 countries abstained.

The UK called for discussion of China to preserve the Commission’s credibility. The US, however, supported the resolution only on condition that the European countries, as proposers, modified the wording so that Tibet was defined as a minority, and therefore as part of China.

This controversial insistence by the US on inserting a gratuitous statement about Tibet's political status in an inappropriate human rights context ran against European wishes, and led to fierce criticism from the Tibetan Government-in-Exile.

March 1995

China avoids censure on its human rights record by only one vote at the annual meeting of the Human Rights Commission of the UN in Geneva. The resolution included specific references to abuses in Tibet.

This was the first time the resolution had been debated.

From 1992 to 1994, all the resolutions were blocked by a procedural move called a Motion for No Action which was tabled by China.

In 1996 the Motion for No Action was again passed, after vigorous lobbying by Chinese diplomats to enlist the support of developing nations.

http://www.freetibet.org/about/united-nations-tibet

See? Since China is on the security council how are you going to be able to take measures against it when they have veto rights?

I know I get bitchy when people bring up the UN but they cause me such a rash. I mean seriously what's the point of these countries 'expressing their concern' in the same worded resolutions time after time for the chinese to come along and finally say 'motion for no action' and it gets passed? See how the UN needs to be reformed or remain a complete inefficient waste of nicely worded minutia that don't amount to a hill of beans buried beneath cow dung.

That's my rant for the day, now I'm off to the gym.
 
I know I get bitchy when people bring up the UN but they cause me such a rash.

I understand. I also recognise that the ICC cannot implement its judicial recommendations [see Nicaragua vs the United States - although thats ICJ but its a comparable situation]. I was just wondering if it is possible to bring an occupation to the ICC as a war crime.

According to your statements it is possible to bring it to courts which will prosecute individual war criminals [like Spain or Britain], although as far as I know, some of these individual states have changed the laws so that civilians cannot prosecute heads of state due to diplomatic embarrassment.

Has the Tibetan matter been brought to the ICC? I couldn't find anything on it online apart from the Spanish court
 
I understand. I also recognise that the ICC cannot implement its judicial recommendations [see Nicaragua vs the United States - although thats ICJ but its a comparable situation]. I was just wondering if it is possible to bring an occupation to the ICC as a war crime.

According to your statements it is possible to bring it to courts which will prosecute individual war criminals [like Spain or Britain], although as far as I know, some of these individual states have changed the laws so that civilians cannot prosecute heads of state due to diplomatic embarrassment.

Has the Tibetan matter been brought to the ICC? I couldn't find anything on it online apart from the Spanish court

Yes they can prosecute heads of state but the problem will always be who will implement it, as we have seen with the president of sudan who has an order out for his arrest. No one will go in and get him and he's been traveling around in countries that refuse to honor the arrest warrant so its a futile endeavor. I don't believe the ICC has honored the request or even considered it. They had enough trouble trying to deal with back-water sudan whom they claim is protected by China than pretend to go up against china itself. Thing is that the time it takes for the ICC to consider and then implement charges takes so much time that you can't tell if its in the pipeline or not but I doubt it. The charges in the Spanish court only took place in 2008 so we shall see.
 
You might find this item from a blog somewhat interesting:

As I noted last week, the International Criminal Court’s Review Conference of the Rome Statute has begun meeting in Kampala, Uganda. Among the more controversial items on the Conference’s agenda is the potential addition of Crimes of Agression to the ICC’s jurisdiction.

The controversial addition has already made waves, including among human rights advocates. According to Mike Corder’s AP Article, organizations including Human Rights Watch oppose adding Crimes of Agression:

But top jurists and a prominent human rights organization warn that prosecuting the as-yet-undefined crime of aggression could open the world’s first permanent war crimes tribunal to accusations of politicization.

Richard Goldstone, former prosecutor at the U.N. war crimes courts for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, wrote in an opinion piece for the New York Times that “now is not the time” for the court to tackle the thorny legal question.

“The issues that would arise from dealing with allegations of aggression would give ammunition to critics who claim it is a politicized institution,” he wrote.

New York-based Human Rights Watch agreed, saying in a statement that “making the crime of aggression operational could link the ICC to highly politicized disputes between states that could diminish the court’s role — and perceptions of that role — as an impartial judicial arbiter of international criminal law.”

Despite its prominence, adding Crimes of Agression to the ICC’s jurisdiction is not the only item on the Conference’s Agenda. For more information, visit the Conference’s home page.

Another resource is Human Right’s Watch’s “Global Justice” coverage of the Conference.

Finally, the ICC will be live blogging directly from the conference.

http://intlawblog.com/
 
If the head of state were a kidnapper or a pedophile would Interpol go after him, if so, why cannot Interpol go after HOS who are war criminals?

i.e. why doesn't Interpol tie up with the ICC and ICJ?

You might find this item from a blog somewhat interesting:

Finally, the ICC will be live blogging directly from the conference.

http://intlawblog.com/

Thanks that is very interesting. I will keep track of the conference and follow it.

Richard Goldstone, former prosecutor at the U.N. war crimes courts for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, wrote in an opinion piece for the New York Times that “now is not the time” for the court to tackle the thorny legal question.

“The issues that would arise from dealing with allegations of aggression would give ammunition to critics who claim it is a politicized institution,” he wrote.

New York-based Human Rights Watch agreed, saying in a statement that “making the crime of aggression operational could link the ICC to highly politicized disputes between states that could diminish the court’s role — and perceptions of that role — as an impartial judicial arbiter of international criminal law.”

It would be interesting to read the legal arguments behind those recommendations.
 
The ICC was specifically set up to deal with war criminals.

Is occupation a war crime? If not, why not?



Define "crimes of aggression".

According to this article:
Debate over the crime of aggression — broadly defined as attacks by one state on another that violate the U.N. charter — is expected to dominate the two-week meeting in the Ugandan capital, Kampala, organized by the court's governing body, the Assembly of States Parties.
 
Is occupation a war crime? If not, why not?
Under the Geneva convention a country at war has considerable leeway in the treatment of enemy civilians. The only restrictions are:
  • You must not harm them physically.
  • You must not enslave them.
  • You must not force them to emigrate.
And of course all of these proscriptions are trumped by the "normal" events of war, such as "collateral damage" or the "military necessity" of destroying a war resource.

I'm sure you're talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict because by now everyone on SciForums knows that you are obsessed with it and virtually nothing else in the universe can engage your interest for long. You're the AFLAC Duck of Palestine, we can't find the button on our remote control that will get you off of our TV screen. Quack! Quack! Quack!

I'm sure that Israel can be defined as being "at war" with the western half of Palestine. If the USA can get away with saying it's "at war" with Al Qaeda, which isn't even a nation, then surely no one can criticize Israel for being at war with a regional population who elected a government that denies Israel's right to exist--regardless of how this situation came about in the first place and which side may have the more reasonable historical grievance.

So Israel's occupation of Gaza appears to satisfy the laws of war. This is, after all, the reason that we all have to sit quietly and accept their insistence that they had the right to attack the flotilla in international waters: they actually did have that right because they are at war and the international community knows it.
 
SAM:

Is occupation a war crime? If not, why not?

No. You might want to take a look at the document that sets up the ICC and defines its jurisdiction. (I can't recall the exact name of the document but it won't be hard to find.)

Debate over the crime of aggression — broadly defined as attacks by one state on another that violate the U.N. charter...

The ICC does not cover "crimes of aggression" in that case. The ICC's jurisdiction is much more limited than that.

I must say, that definition sounds so vague that I think the only international bodies that could address it in general terms would be the General Assembly and the Security Council.
 
Under the Geneva convention a country at war has considerable leeway in the treatment of enemy civilians...
I'm sure you're talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict

Actually I was wondering how so many international bodies that are concerned with human rights have overlooked the fact that occupation, which deprives civilians of so many of them, is not even a crime. If I were to treat any human being the way occupied peoples are treated, it would be a crime. But do it to millions of people and its not even a consideration.
 
When power in a land and over the people in a land passes to a hostile foreign force, mostly a military one. The Hague Conventions distinguish between military occupation and acquisition of territory by force, but that is just semantics.
 
Actually I was wondering how so many international bodies that are concerned with human rights have overlooked the fact that occupation, which deprives civilians of so many of them, is not even a crime.
The laws of war are minimal because everyone knows they're almost impossible to enforce as they are. The only rights they even try to protect are the right to life, the prohibition of slavery and the prohibition of expatriation. In the case of the Palestinians Israel has managed to get away with violating the third one.
If I were to treat any human being the way occupied peoples are treated, it would be a crime. But do it to millions of people and its not even a consideration.
The difference is that you're not an agent of a nation at war.

Did you think that we pacifists are pacifists just because we don't want to die or to be conscripted to kill people? We don't want war because we don't want civilization to degenerate into a condition in which things are allowed to occur that are only legal in the course of war.

The Israelis treated the Palestinians so atrociously and made them so angry that they elected a government that for all practical purposes declared war on Israel. This gave Israel an incontrovertible excuse to formally state that it is indeed at war with Palestine. Now that they are legally in a state of war, they can legally commit all kinds of atrocities that they could not get away with in peacetime, such as blockading civilian ports of entry, attacking unarmed ships in international waters, and killing foreign nationals as "collateral damage."

As I said before, the confrontation in the waters off of Gaza was a publicity stunt carefully scripted by the Palestinians. They attempted to make themselves look like downtrodden, peaceful people so the Israelis would look like trigger-happy racists. Their propaganda was poorly scripted and included claims that the Palestinians were desperate for food, which in fact is abundant in the occupied territories. Nonetheless they struck a chord with the gullible TV audience and now Israel is feeling public pressure. Turkey is a member of NATO so if you take on Turkey you're suddenly a blood enemy of all of Europe plus the USA. The young, liberal, secular, non-Zionist Jews in America may suddenly wrest leadership of the American Jewish community--which has as many Jews as the entire nation of Israel--away from its Orthodox, Zionist "elders." Eventually the Israeli voters may come to their senses and try to find a better way to end their conflict with Palestine.

Israel has gambled on a strict interpretation of the laws of war, and it may backfire.
 
In history, are there any occupied peoples who have "elected" a leadership that will not resist?
 
If the head of state were a kidnapper or a pedophile would Interpol go after him, if so, why cannot Interpol go after HOS who are war criminals?

A head of state that was a kidnapper or a pedophile would only make it to the interpol list if they have disappeared by crossing borders. A head of state that was pedophile would be handled by the internal government.

You are ascribing way too much power to the ICC if you think they would have jurisdiction in someone else's country.
 
In history, are there any occupied peoples who have "elected" a leadership that will not resist?

Yes. N.Korea was one of those. But they were incapable of helping their people but when the people looked around one day and discovered a leadership they not only didn't want but couldn't get remove.

The resistance has to work, in other words they would have to have land and get closer to a normal society for the people to want to keep the leadership. Resistance on its own doesn't mean diddly. The early american founders were resisters, but they were also savvy enough to form and maintain a stable government.
 
actually the geniva convention protects civillians, it DOESNT alow them to be killed, collectivilly punished, treated as a "resorce" by either side.

and by definition anything banned by the geniva convention IS a war crime
 
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