NSA Declassified Documents: "Citizens Against UFO Secrecy v. NSA

somethings accepted as a "given" nowadays was once deemed "nonsense" by similarly shortsighted and dogmatic individuals.

references to ufos can be found to go back for thousands of years

Funny thing, and yet UFO’s to date are still not a ‘given’ even after thousands of years of references.

you know that objectivity has been lost when derogatory descriptions of ufologists are employed by the pseudo skeptics

At least skeptics are capable of objectivity.

it should serve as a caution against dismissing stuff out of hand as nonsense merely because it doesnt jive with conventional wisdom.

But it could very well be nonsense. If after thousands of years of references, one would think a shred of validity might have emerged. But alas…
 
Once again, Q is resorting to blanketing statements instead of proceeding to discuss specific cases. I had thought Spooks had taught you better.

This discussion was started on a specific topic. Would you care to discuss that topic?

I assume you are referring to Van Daniken or perhaps various biblical passages, perhaps Ezekiel. You are correct and I am wrong on the fad issue. Anything that lasts over half a century is not a fad. It started with Foo Fighters during WW2 and the first books were published in the early 1950's.
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This is incorrect. Newspapers in America spoke of the great "airships" during the late 1800's. Midevil frescos have been shown depicting flying vehicles with persons inside them. Cave art has shown cigar shaped objects flying in the sky. None of this is new, nor is the belief by some that it is all mass delusion and urban legend. If that was all it was, then like hundreds of other myths, it would have died. The story of Mothman is a good example of this.
 
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Originally posted by Xevious
Once again, Q is resorting to blanketing statements instead of proceeding to discuss specific cases. I had thought Spooks had taught you better.

This discussion was started on a specific topic. Would you care to discuss that topic?



This is incorrect. Newspapers in America spoke of the great "airships" during the late 1800's. Midevil frescos have been shown depicting flying vehicles with persons inside them. Cave art has shown cigar shaped objects flying in the sky. None of this is new, nor is the belief by some that it is all mass delusion and urban legend. If that was all it was, then like hundreds of other myths, it would have died. The story of Mothman is a good example of this.
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And we take cave daubings literally do we? So King Tut really 'walked like an egyptian'? Everything in hieroglyphs actually existed, or at least, was witnessed?

No. Pictures of objects flying across the heaven carrying people are 'artist's impressions' not accurate renderings.

Like in the Bayeaux tapestry, do you really think the thing they saw had a tail like that?
 
Once again, Q is resorting to blanketing statements instead of proceeding to discuss specific cases.

I am addressing remarks made from another post – have you got a problem with that? If so, too bad. My statements are relative.

I had thought Spooks had taught you better.

Are you kidding?

Newspapers in America spoke of the great "airships" during the late 1800's. Midevil frescos have been shown depicting flying vehicles with persons inside them. Cave art has shown cigar shaped objects flying in the sky.

Are we to believe that every artist’s rendition existed in real life? It’s not like artists suddenly developed an imagination just recently.
 
Funny thing, and yet UFO’s to date are still not a ‘given’ even after thousands of years of references.

slippery little buggers aint they?

At least skeptics are capable of objectivity.

too bad this alleged capability is oft left unutilised

But it could very well be nonsense.

nonsense

If after thousands of years of references, one would think a shred of validity might have emerged. But alas…

patience my dear man patience;)
 
phlogistician

And we take cave daubings literally do we? So King Tut really 'walked like an egyptian'? Everything in hieroglyphs actually existed, or at least, was witnessed?

disingenuity. i aint buying this line of reasoning. nothing but a transparent attempt to ridicule. begone knave!

No. Pictures of objects flying across the heaven carrying people are 'artist's impressions' not accurate renderings.

and the question screaming to be asked (source of "impression?") is ignored.
how convenient. you are also creating your own standards of proof for ufos, namely that if it isnt "accurate", it isnt real

Like in the Bayeaux tapestry, do you really think the thing they saw had a tail like that?

ahh, the crucial word..."think"! as long as we are doing that, i am reassured. even if a prosaic explanation is found, it is still an explanation!

secondly, i do not see why "artistic license" is an issue here. representing a tail on canvas in some fantastical manner hardly lessen the fact that it is still a tail. an artist could add wings on to a saucer and the larger point (a ufo was observed) is still left intact
 
Spookz, are you going to answer my point, or carry on dodging?

You state that there are pictures which depict UFOs. I show that there is considerable interpretation in that art, thuis making it unreliable as evidence.

The source of the impression? The same things that people mistake today, obviously! The fact that the art is old, doesn't give it extra credence. People understood less about astronomy then, and so, were likely to over interpret what they saw.

So, some content from you, rather than rhetoric, please.
 
The same things that people mistake today, obviously!
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OK, so they had 747's back then... or maybe F-16's? Ohh wait it must have been an Aurora, or an sattilite! Or maybe it's hoaxed. Someone threw a doorknob, or a hubcap, or something. Oh I forgot, none of those things existed back then. How did they get the idea to depict a human inside an ENCLOSED silver metallic sphere (in the case of one fresco)? Back then just about all your metals were going to be deep greys and black for Iron and steel. Shining silver like stainless steel was an almost toally unknown idea!

I'm looking right now for an image of the fresco online... but it's not exactly easy to explain.
 
Reading the Yates document was a waste of time. No evidence, only talk. Same with the Shag Harbor site posted, except that the Shag Harbor article was shorter.

The UFO believers are more like religious types than science types.

There is more evidence for witches than for ET's. Some witches were executed after trials. Humans have yet to see an ET.
 
Spookz: The articles at sites you posted seem similar to many I have read. Primarily anecdotes with no evidence. The photos do not seem to lend themselves to analysis, only speculation about subject matter and authenticity.

Between 1951 & 1954 I worked in Washington DC. I remember some newspaper articles and books about UFO sightings (visual & radar). Some occurred in the Washington area at that time, while others occurred elsewhere. Nothing was very convincing to me then, and I am still a skeptic. I have always paid attention to Ufology, starting with Foo Fighter reports from WW2 pilots.

Something that seems strange to me now is that current articles always seem to be dated 5-10 years or more after the alleged events. Articles about Kecksburg, Roswell, Shag Harbor, Belguim, et cetera do not refer to newspaper accounts contemporary with the sightings. The Foo Fighter & UFO sightings in 1951-1954 were reported at the time of the sightings.
 
what is the nature of the evidence that is required here?
it is weird that radar reports/photographs and its subsequent analysis is considered to be anecdotal. in order to discuss further....

Background:

1. Starting early Dec 89 the BAF has been contacted on several occasions by eyewitnesses who observed strange phenomena in the Belgian airspace. On some occasions they described the phenomena as a triangle-shaped platform up to 200 feet wide with 3 downward beaming projectors, hovering at +- 100 m above the ground and making only a very light humming noise. Some witnesses saw the object departing at very high speed after a very fast acceleration. All observations were made in the evening or during the night.

2. The radar stations which had been alerted by eyewitnesses could not definitely determine a correlation between the visual observations and their detection on radar. On two occasions the BAF scrambled 2 F16 during the evening hours.

  • a. On the first occasion the F16 arrived +- 1 hour after the visual detection. Nothing was observed.

    b. On the second occasion, pilots could identify a laser-beam projector on the ground. After investigation it appeared however that the description of the observations totally differed from previously described phenomena.
3. Consequently the Belgian Airforce, anxious to identify the origin of the phenomena, authorised F16 scrambles if following conditions were met:

  • a. Visual observations on the ground confirmed by the local police.

    b. Detection on radar.
Events:

4. On 30 Mar 1990 at 23.00 Hr the Master Controller (MC) of the Air Defense radar station of Glons received a phone call from a person who declared to observe three independent blinking lights in the sky, changing colours, with a much higher intensity than the lights of the stars and forming a triangle. Meteo conditions were clear sky, no clouds, light wind and a minor temperature inversion at 3000 Ft.

5. The MC in turn notified the police of WAVRE which confirmed the sighting at +- 23 30 Hr. Meanwhile the MC had identified a radar contact at about 8 NM North of the ground observation. The contact moved slowely to the West at a speed of =- 25kts and an altitude of 10.000 Ft._

6. The ground observers reported 3 additional light spots which moved gradually, with irregular speeds, towards the first set of lights and forming a second triangle.

7. At 23.50 a second radar station, situated at +- 100 NM from the first, confirmed an identical contact at the same place of the radar contact of Glons.

8. At 00.05 2 F16 were scrambled from BEAUVECHAIN airbase and guided towards the radar contacts. A total of 9 interception attempts have been made. At 6 occasions the pilots could establish a lock-on with their air interception radar. Lock-on distances varied between 5 and 8 NM. On all occasions targets varied speed and altitude very quickly and break-locks occurred after 10 to 60 seconds. Speeds varied between 150 and 1010 kts. At 3 occasions both F16 registered simultaneous lock-ons with the same parameters. The 2 F16 were flying +- 2 NM apart. No visual contact could be established by either of the F16 pilots.

9. The F16 flew 3 times through the observation field of the ground observers. At the third passage the ground observers notified a change in the behavior of the light spots. The most luminous started to blink very intensively while the other disappeared. Consequently, the most luminous spot started to dim gradually.

10. Meanwhile the head of the police of WAVRE had alerted 4 other police stations in the area. All four, separated +- 10 NM from each other, confirmed the visual observations.

11. The aircraft landed at 01.10 Hrs. The last visual observation was recorded at +- 01.30 Hrs.

Conclusions:

12. The Belgian Air Force was unable to identify neither the nature nor the origin of the phenomena. However, it had sufficient elements to exclude following assumptions:

  • a. Balloons. Impossible due to the highly variable speeds (confirmed visually and by radar).

    b. ULM. Same as for balloons.

    c. RPV. Impossible due to the hovering characteristics.

    d. Aircraft (including Stealth). Same as for RPV. No noise.

    e. Laser projections or Mirages. Unlikely due to lack of projection surface (no clouds). Light spots have been observed from different locations. Light spots moved over distance of more than 15 NM. Form of inlighted part of spots has been observed with spectacles. Laser projections or mirages can not be detected by radar.
 
Originally posted by Xevious
OK, so they had 747's back then... or maybe F-16's? Ohh wait it must have been an Aurora, or an sattilite! Or maybe it's hoaxed. Someone threw a doorknob, or a hubcap, or something. Oh I forgot, none of those things existed back then. How did they get the idea to depict a human inside an ENCLOSED silver metallic sphere (in the case of one fresco)? Back then just about all your metals were going to be deep greys and black for Iron and steel. Shining silver like stainless steel was an almost toally unknown idea!

I'm looking right now for an image of the fresco online... but it's not exactly easy to explain.
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Things that get reported often as UFOs are Venus and Mars, stars, meteorites, and clouds. Of course, knowledge of astronomy was lesser then, so some things must have seen even more impressive and out of the ordinary. No need to get aircraft involved at all. Ever been outside somewhere really dark? Counted the number of meteorites you'll easily see if you care to look? All it takes is someone with an over active imagination to see one of the many that fall each night, and you have yourself a UFO sighting.

Why would people draw people inside an object? Mythology? Folk stories about the gods travelling across the skies in their chariots?

As for metal all being deep greys and black. Utter rot, gold and silver exist as pure metal in nugget form in the earth, and were prized as precious metals. What else would gods ride around in, apart from vehicles made from precious metals? Even Neanderthals wore jewellery, it seems, so most homo sapiens should be aware of shiny metals.

Anyway, link an image of that fresco, so we can discuss it.
 
Of course, knowledge of astronomy was lesser then, so some things must have seen even more impressive and out of the ordinary.
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This isn't entirely right. Back then, Astronomy was your calender for the most part, everyone had at least a working knowledge of moon cycles, and the major visible planets. Comets, while extremily rare, were known as a disctinct phenomenon. While it is true they had tons of myths about comets being an evil sign, comets were comets. Similarly, planets were planets.

So, how do any of these things inspire a midevil painter to paint an image of a metallic egg-shaped object with a pilot onboard?
 
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