Where? I love starving children.
Baron Max
??? you love children who are starving, or you love actually starving those children?
Not for justice, but salvation
- Thread starter Tiassa
- Start date
??? you love children who are starving, or you love actually starving those children?
I think at some level even the murderers get in. It's akin to God's final message to creation. God knows that He is responsible for all that comes by His creation, and takes pity, which is about the only way to explain the convenience of the deathbed confession.
But I find it disgusting that, even at this stage, as far as Rodriguez is concerned, this seems to be all about him.
But I find it disgusting that, even at this stage, as far as Rodriguez is concerned, this seems to be all about him.
What an interesting, if self-righteous comment! Of course it's all about HIM ...he's about to be executed, he's requested to be executed, he wants to be executed, he's begging to be executed, ......who the fuck else is it going to be about??!!
Tiassa, you're disgusted much too easily. Is that because of your naturally self-righteousness or what?
Baron Max
Baron Max said:
Max, you've taken so many swings of late that by random probability, you should have gotten at least something right. And yet, still, relevance eludes you. At some point, it really does seem deliberate.
However, in order to fill in what you so deftly managed to miss:
Read the damn topic title. Of course it's about him. But he's not rushing to the executioner in order to bring about justice, but because he thinks it will buy him salvation.
It would be nice to say that, in forfeiting his appeals, he was doing the decent thing. But he's not. He's not aiming toward justice, but his own salvation.
Of course, overlooking that point as you did helped you build a nifty, convenient platform from which you could more easily confuse yourself.
I'm sorry Tiassa, but I'm not understanding what the problem is. As long as he dies, its all good right?
And that makes a difference to anything ...........how?
What's your point here, Tiassa? If Joe Average thinks he's doing it for "justice", but Tiassa doesn't, what's the big fuckin' deal to it all? Who the fuck cares what it's for or who decides what it's for?
Like most such threads, Tiassa, you're just going 'round n' 'round and saying very little. Well, except for insulting me and other posters ...you seem to enjoy doing that a lot.
Baron Max
As long as we get to kill somebody, right?
Well, that's one way of looking at it. I am, for the record, putting aside my general objection to capital punishment.
I think you're aware that I am a critic of Christianity at the very least. I am not as critical as my atheist neighbors of the idea of religion, but redemptive monotheism (e.g., Christianity, among others) is, in my opinion, more of a cancer on the human endeavor than anything else.
And, while there are many details that may or may not make for fascinating explorations about that idea, the more important thing to remember would be that this is the reason I care about this topic at all.
I was baptized as an infant. I barely have memories of that ritual. Perhaps it meant more to my grandmother, but I'm still not sure why we bothered. I grew up a "holiday Christian", under a bizarre legal requirement that demanded I receive a Christian education of some form. By the time I chose (asked, even) to attend a Jesuit high school, this strange culture called "Christianity" seemed pretty much the standard.
And from those years of forced exposure, there are certain lessons that are indelible marks of Christian faith. The core of how I judge Christian socio-theological assertions in the contemporary, for instance—two stories from Matthew (chapters 5 and 25) are the primary guides, while the passages from Matthew and Luke included in the "Greedy mother" topic set the dimensions of obligation—are directly descended from this education.
Let me first explain how important this was to people: What would you do if your child's teacher knocked over furniture, hurled books at, and cussed out the class? Seriously. If there was some spittle-spraying, purple-faced old man literally overturning furniture while shouting condemnation and, yes, winging books at the students, what would you say? What if, when all was said and done, the unanimous statements of the class also happened to agree with those of the teacher: that the teacher was upset because the students wouldn't cover their ears in class and shout at one another? (We all just sort of looked around at each other for a couple of seconds, and then, snap! he was off.) So ... how many teachers do you let threaten and demean your kids while throwing books at them and upsetting the furniture? When all was said and done, we all had to go before the preacher, one by one, and apologize to him for being disobedient. That is how important this Christian education was. It was, in fact, in the wake of that incident that it was finally explained to me that I had no choice, that I was legally obliged to this process. But yes, that's how important it was. We all had to apologize for making a man of God so angry that he would cuss and spit and knock over tables and chairs and throw Bibles at us.
True story.
And at the heart of that education is a simple child's saying that they'd drilled into us during the summer at "Vacation Bible School". It was the heart of our confirmation education, to become "adults" in the Lutheran church. And during my years in Jesuit school, the saying formed a central part of the teaching we received. I have found this idea among the Quakers. And yes, even among a Southern Baptist youth group when my high school girlfriend dragged me to a Carmen concert, could this simple maxim be found. The only difference, as I understand it, is how we define what it means.
And this is it:
Really. That's it. The uncounted hours, the "history" and theology, the lessons in faith and trust. It all comes down to a sentence fragment, a three-step instruction on how to make one's way through the world.
When nonbelievers note that Christianity "preaches selflessness", it is this idea they are referring to.
And it is conspicuously missing throughout much of Christianity today. (It is also present through much of Christianity, and the difference is a matter of trust, but this is a separate discussion for now.)
As nature abhors a vacuum (or so God wills, so to speak) that void must necessarily be filled in with something. And that something is a selfish attitude that through history has spawned many terrible crimes against humanity and God alike. It is what turns Christ's modified Golden Rule into a nightmare that justified crusades, inquisitions, parts of the American slave trade, and without which Manifest Destiny would have been considerably harder an argument.
When an evangelist tempts the infidel, "Don't you want to go to Heaven?" it is an appeal to greed. As I understand it from the Bible and the preachers, God knows damn well what is in a person's heart, so I assert that God sees this greed.
I don't actually begrudge the murderer a place in God's kingdom. Stalin, Hitler, Torquemada: theoretically they all have a place in God's so-called Plan. God, to put it as simply as possible, is not extraneous. God simply doesn't do things "for the hell of it". (Or so the preachers demand, and it seems fair enough; I say that Nature is not extraneous, and in the end the only thing separating God and Nature is that the former has an attitude problem while the latter has no attitude whatsoever.)
But here is the problem: As long as we poor mortals are trapped within our earthly coils, stranded in this sad existence until God's mercy changes that fact, we have to put up with Christians. Life goes on.
I remember once listening to a Seventh Day Adventist criticizing the U.S. government in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. The SDAs had many relief supplies just waiting for a disaster to serve, and this sounds wonderful, except that the reason, apparently, is their duty to God. And it is this conscious acknowledgment that bothers me. Christians will tell us who we can sleep with, what music we can listen to, and in some cases what freakin' underwear we're allowed to wear. And all in order to impress God. They'll burn books, sabotage condoms (yes, really, truly, it has happened), and some will even go so far as to set off bombs or shoot doctors (and, to be politically correct in order to not offend those so empowered by God as to be dysfunctionally oversensitive, that is thankfully few in American society). All of this is because people think they are impressing God. If I save a life, it should be because a life needed saving, and I was there to do it. If I give a dollar to a homeless man, it should be because a homeless man asked and I had a dollar to give. The idea that I should do these things for God? That goodness is merely a way to pander for God's favor?
In these most basic forms, the "greedy" mother and now this man in a Texas prison are symbolic of where Christianity ran afoul in the world. They are refined depictions of a dangerous caricature of faith. And yes, it sickens me.
Because this corruption is not borne of some inherent evil about humanity. It is learned behavior, taught by Christians in pursuit not of God's kingdom, but for God's blessing. In the end, it is tragic, these lonely souls weeping for their Father: "Do you see? Do you see me, Father? Am I good enough for you now? Are you looking? Hello? Please? I'm right here!"
But they revel in the tragedy and the misery it brings. Look at what this man's decision says. You might say it's all good, but the man is simply spitting on the dead. He needs to die, he thinks, so that he can get into heaven, so that he can be rewarded.
Go ahead and piss on his grave for all I care. But for now, just look at what he's saying. This is what Christian faith does to people. The only relationship between his motive and justice is that he needs to exploit the idea of justice in order to earn his heavenly reward.
You don't have to believe he's actually going to heaven. All I'm asking is that people stop and think about how perverse the logic is. For this is what the faith does to people.
If history is any indicator, the triumph of orthodoxy over gnosticism suggests that, in the end, this greedy corruption of the faith will win out over a deeper, more complex expression of faith. It is easier to decide what God wants than it is to seek meaning. And it is far more attractive to petty souls to wield power in the name of God than it is to trust in the Lord.
There is a lot more to this than whether and when they actually put this man down.
Orleander said:
Well, that's one way of looking at it. I am, for the record, putting aside my general objection to capital punishment.
I think you're aware that I am a critic of Christianity at the very least. I am not as critical as my atheist neighbors of the idea of religion, but redemptive monotheism (e.g., Christianity, among others) is, in my opinion, more of a cancer on the human endeavor than anything else.
And, while there are many details that may or may not make for fascinating explorations about that idea, the more important thing to remember would be that this is the reason I care about this topic at all.
I was baptized as an infant. I barely have memories of that ritual. Perhaps it meant more to my grandmother, but I'm still not sure why we bothered. I grew up a "holiday Christian", under a bizarre legal requirement that demanded I receive a Christian education of some form. By the time I chose (asked, even) to attend a Jesuit high school, this strange culture called "Christianity" seemed pretty much the standard.
And from those years of forced exposure, there are certain lessons that are indelible marks of Christian faith. The core of how I judge Christian socio-theological assertions in the contemporary, for instance—two stories from Matthew (chapters 5 and 25) are the primary guides, while the passages from Matthew and Luke included in the "Greedy mother" topic set the dimensions of obligation—are directly descended from this education.
Let me first explain how important this was to people: What would you do if your child's teacher knocked over furniture, hurled books at, and cussed out the class? Seriously. If there was some spittle-spraying, purple-faced old man literally overturning furniture while shouting condemnation and, yes, winging books at the students, what would you say? What if, when all was said and done, the unanimous statements of the class also happened to agree with those of the teacher: that the teacher was upset because the students wouldn't cover their ears in class and shout at one another? (We all just sort of looked around at each other for a couple of seconds, and then, snap! he was off.) So ... how many teachers do you let threaten and demean your kids while throwing books at them and upsetting the furniture? When all was said and done, we all had to go before the preacher, one by one, and apologize to him for being disobedient. That is how important this Christian education was. It was, in fact, in the wake of that incident that it was finally explained to me that I had no choice, that I was legally obliged to this process. But yes, that's how important it was. We all had to apologize for making a man of God so angry that he would cuss and spit and knock over tables and chairs and throw Bibles at us.
True story.
And at the heart of that education is a simple child's saying that they'd drilled into us during the summer at "Vacation Bible School". It was the heart of our confirmation education, to become "adults" in the Lutheran church. And during my years in Jesuit school, the saying formed a central part of the teaching we received. I have found this idea among the Quakers. And yes, even among a Southern Baptist youth group when my high school girlfriend dragged me to a Carmen concert, could this simple maxim be found. The only difference, as I understand it, is how we define what it means.
And this is it:
God first, others second, self third.
Really. That's it. The uncounted hours, the "history" and theology, the lessons in faith and trust. It all comes down to a sentence fragment, a three-step instruction on how to make one's way through the world.
When nonbelievers note that Christianity "preaches selflessness", it is this idea they are referring to.
And it is conspicuously missing throughout much of Christianity today. (It is also present through much of Christianity, and the difference is a matter of trust, but this is a separate discussion for now.)
As nature abhors a vacuum (or so God wills, so to speak) that void must necessarily be filled in with something. And that something is a selfish attitude that through history has spawned many terrible crimes against humanity and God alike. It is what turns Christ's modified Golden Rule into a nightmare that justified crusades, inquisitions, parts of the American slave trade, and without which Manifest Destiny would have been considerably harder an argument.
When an evangelist tempts the infidel, "Don't you want to go to Heaven?" it is an appeal to greed. As I understand it from the Bible and the preachers, God knows damn well what is in a person's heart, so I assert that God sees this greed.
I don't actually begrudge the murderer a place in God's kingdom. Stalin, Hitler, Torquemada: theoretically they all have a place in God's so-called Plan. God, to put it as simply as possible, is not extraneous. God simply doesn't do things "for the hell of it". (Or so the preachers demand, and it seems fair enough; I say that Nature is not extraneous, and in the end the only thing separating God and Nature is that the former has an attitude problem while the latter has no attitude whatsoever.)
But here is the problem: As long as we poor mortals are trapped within our earthly coils, stranded in this sad existence until God's mercy changes that fact, we have to put up with Christians. Life goes on.
I remember once listening to a Seventh Day Adventist criticizing the U.S. government in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. The SDAs had many relief supplies just waiting for a disaster to serve, and this sounds wonderful, except that the reason, apparently, is their duty to God. And it is this conscious acknowledgment that bothers me. Christians will tell us who we can sleep with, what music we can listen to, and in some cases what freakin' underwear we're allowed to wear. And all in order to impress God. They'll burn books, sabotage condoms (yes, really, truly, it has happened), and some will even go so far as to set off bombs or shoot doctors (and, to be politically correct in order to not offend those so empowered by God as to be dysfunctionally oversensitive, that is thankfully few in American society). All of this is because people think they are impressing God. If I save a life, it should be because a life needed saving, and I was there to do it. If I give a dollar to a homeless man, it should be because a homeless man asked and I had a dollar to give. The idea that I should do these things for God? That goodness is merely a way to pander for God's favor?
In these most basic forms, the "greedy" mother and now this man in a Texas prison are symbolic of where Christianity ran afoul in the world. They are refined depictions of a dangerous caricature of faith. And yes, it sickens me.
Because this corruption is not borne of some inherent evil about humanity. It is learned behavior, taught by Christians in pursuit not of God's kingdom, but for God's blessing. In the end, it is tragic, these lonely souls weeping for their Father: "Do you see? Do you see me, Father? Am I good enough for you now? Are you looking? Hello? Please? I'm right here!"
But they revel in the tragedy and the misery it brings. Look at what this man's decision says. You might say it's all good, but the man is simply spitting on the dead. He needs to die, he thinks, so that he can get into heaven, so that he can be rewarded.
Go ahead and piss on his grave for all I care. But for now, just look at what he's saying. This is what Christian faith does to people. The only relationship between his motive and justice is that he needs to exploit the idea of justice in order to earn his heavenly reward.
You don't have to believe he's actually going to heaven. All I'm asking is that people stop and think about how perverse the logic is. For this is what the faith does to people.
If history is any indicator, the triumph of orthodoxy over gnosticism suggests that, in the end, this greedy corruption of the faith will win out over a deeper, more complex expression of faith. It is easier to decide what God wants than it is to seek meaning. And it is far more attractive to petty souls to wield power in the name of God than it is to trust in the Lord.
There is a lot more to this than whether and when they actually put this man down.
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Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
You did notice that the man guilty of the murder of a police officer. You could at least give Tiassa a nod for that.
Obviously you don't even know what the thread is about. It has nothing to do with the man murdering a police officer, it's about the convicted killer's wish to be executed. Read the thread, you'll see.
Baron Max
No, can't do that either. Tiassa hates cops, so I'm guessing that he's glad that the man killed that cop.
But this thread is about the convicted killer asking to be executed. Tiassa, in his high-n-mighty, self-righteous way, is arguing that the killer's request is wrong!
Baron Max
My point is that this thread shouldn't be about Tiassa, it doesn't matter what he think about the subject, you shouldn't be bringing what you think are his views into this. Argue the points not the person.
Read the thread ...it is about the subject, but it's also about Tiassa's insistence that he's right, and everyone else is wrong or stupid or ignorant or blinded by religious faith or ...anything else that Tiassa doesn't like.
Read the thread, you'll see.
Baron Max
Tiassa,
I for one, think your last post was very insightful, honest, and sometimes even bordering on brilliant.
Of course, I am not really allowed to have an opinion of my own without being damed to hell, and I do not want to be damned to hell, so forget what I just said.
But on the other hand, avoiding hell, by forfeiting my own opinion, would be very selfish of me and I do not want to be selfish because if I am selfish then I will be damned to hell anyway. So maybe if I really put some effort into going to hell as an unselfish act then I will really instead be rewarded with heaven. Perhaps that might work... Hmmm... Just maybe... Unless, of course, God sees through my plan and knows that I am actually being selfish in wanting to go to hell so that I will actually go to heaven, if that makes any sense whatsoever... Probably not... But on the other hand, if I...
Anyway, just trying to make you smile!
Thank you for your comments!
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Well, it should be perfectly obvious what to do in that dilemma .....do and say absolutely nothing ever again as long as you live. If you do that, then you and the All-Mighty, All-Knowing, Self-Righteous Tiassa will have no problems with anything you say or do. ...you'll be safe from Tiassa's condemnation.
Baron Max
Well, it should be perfectly obvious what to do in that dilemma .....do and say absolutely nothing ever again as long as you live. If you do that, then you and the All-Mighty, All-Knowing, Self-Righteous Tiassa will have no problems with anything you say or do. ...you'll be safe from Tiassa's condemnation.
Baron Max
I must have missed something somewhere. Where did you ever get the idea that just because Tiassa has an opinion that he therefore thinks of himself as either All-Mighty, All-Knowing, or Self-Righteous?
You seem to have an opinion as well. How is it that you do not have these same attributes? Hopefully you will not be able to find a way to throw a book or two at me through your computer monitor. :bugeye:
Go read some of his posts ....not just in this thread, but in all of his threads. If you don't see it in all of those, then I don't know what to tell you.
As to me? ....same thing, ....go read my posts. If you don't see it, then I don't know what to tell you.
Baron Max
You are the most self rightious person i have ever listened too. Max's observation was right. What a twisted rant, Let scriptures answer the main point of your argument:
2 Corinthians 9
7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
What hate filled people like you don't want to believe is that there are people out there who are joyful followers of the Messiah Jesus and they get a kick out of helping others.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days