News from the Colonies - America's War in Iraq

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AHHHH lets stop all the wars! Lets just stick our heads in the Sand and pretend that nothing is happening. Hype, wake up. Your isolationist crap led to two WORLD WARS that KILLED MILLIONS. WWII caused an estimated 50 MILLION DEATHS. We could have stopped Hitler years before but NO, Isolationists cried "its none of our business, stay out of it....". Thanks alot for nothing.
Terrorists, Dictators, and the like are like weeds. They are always popping up in our garden of life. Yes it sucks picking them but if you ignore them youre garden becomes full of weeds and dies.
Hype, were is your little red book?
 
Oh, please. My "isolationist crap" may not have lead to 50 million deaths, but maybe it's gratifying for you to toss that out in your rhetorical drive-by. It might have some impact if you would give your accusations some meaningful corroboration.

151: Do you really believe that Saddam Hussein was a threat to the United States last year? Are you still living in the 1950s? Little Red Book???

If you have nothing to add about America's neocolonial quagmire, or no way to refute the observations, and just want to say "I don't understand this, and it upsets me"... then I can respect that.
 
Have you seen the footage? How can they be described as anything other than terrified do-gooders?
What footage are we talking about here? I know I'm missing some someplace. All I've been able to find is the Real stream that's about 1.14 long and I only see corpses and fire; the terror is long-passed.
 
For these mercenaries, as I think you know, T there was likely much more adrenaline and "oh shit" than terror. We'll never get to watch these fighters die on Real TV, even if we wanted to, because Journalists who try to film the opening volleys of firefights in places like this don't last very long.

When Geraldo Rivera was prancing around Baghdad with a pistol on his hip, I was so hoping that he might actually pursue such a line of work: "Geraldo Rivera, reporting from Fallu-(whack!)". OK, not really- I think we can fill in the blanks with reasonable accuracy without watching footage of foolhardy mercenaries getting cut down in and beside their cars.
 
We'll never get to watch these fighters die on Real TV
That's what I figured. When I finally got the APTN Real stream to run, I couldn't believe what I was seeing:

Savage, yes, but the networks are having trouble running this footage? Hey, guys, I thought that we all--pro-war or against--agreed that it is the French who are the neighborhood professional pussies. There was nothing on there that shouldn't have made the CBS Evening News.

It's not problematic that I don't get to see people die on TV. It just strikes me that this whole time, for a couple of days, I thought he was talking about the same footage and mercenaries/contractors that I perceived you and 15 to be discussing .... I'm just confused. Where's the footage of the terrified do-gooders? Why haven't I heard more about it? I mean, if we've got that on tape they should be playing it on CNN every hour on the hour and half-hour (and quarters, if they want to go too far) because that will pretty much harden the resolve of the American public in a way not seen since a Powell went and told a pack of lies to the United Nations.
 
I suppose "terrified do-gooders" may have originally referred to, and likely better applies to Larry & Jean Elliott, Karen Watson, and David McDonnell, so some comparison and contrast is in order, because these deaths seem to be often compared.

I didn't know these personally, but was among their associates in Lebanon and Yemen. You won't find any veteran mideast Southern Baptist missionaries promoting the world view that is prominently espoused by American TV evangelists and Washington neoconservatives.

While nearly always maintaining a firm grip on their faith, these folks seem to invariably "go native" in understanding local concerns and perspectives where they serve. On returning home to the Southern Baptist Convention and hometown churches, there is often a much more ponderous gap in understanding that experienced missionaries confront. The culture shock upon returning home, especially concerning political issues, can be more severe than the initial culture shock of going abroad.

Experienced "do-gooder" missionaries in dangerous places generally abhor the idea of their own, or associates' perversion into poster-martyrs for the likes of Paul Wolfowitz. During some very bad times in South America, when friends of Washington were killing missionaries, it was similarly counterproductive to mission work for deaths to become politicized. For associates of slain missionaries, it's like the victims are not butchered only once in the physical sense, but also again in their earthly afterlife, or legacy, which is ground up by political operatives to fortify with martyrdom their particular and distinct recipes for public consumption

Many ghosts of the past at times haunt the work of modern missionaries who genuinely live by example of service and sacrifice for others, and employ no other means of persuasion, or any coercion in following their beliefs.

Bill Koehn, Kathy Gariety, and Martha Myers were killed at the Jibla Baptist Hospital where for a generation Yemenis have been offered unheard-of emergency and routine health care, without religious coercion. I lived there as a lad, when my father worked at the hospital. Activities were entirely for the support of the medical mission, and any "evangelism" was only conveyed by the living of lives and sharing of talents in service of others, with nothing asked in return. Jibla was sort of like a MASH unit in its remoteness, but grew to provide amazing levels of care, where highly skilled medical teams achieved many amazing good works, not for monetary but spiritual reward.

Now that the consequences of a shift in US foreign policy have poyzund* the future of this facility, there will be no converted Christian Yemeni community left behind, because one was never created- These missionaries devoted themselves to service and example- not conversion- even while sharing their faith freely when asked. These missionaries will not be remembered as people who came to impose a religion and culture on the natives. They can only be remembered by the Yemenis they served as amazing Christians from America (I should add that many committed workers also were also hired from other countries) who saves thousands of lives and improved the quality of many more, with no demands for payment or a single religious discussion.

I just wanted to briefly draw the distinction between bona fide "do-gooders" who are out there now, who actually do get caught up in the gory wheels of conflict, along with soldiers of fortune, who make so much more money, but who in both works and death leave behind so much less that the world can gain from.

In the rising climate of conflict and fear in the Mideast, a disconnect, a little-noticed exodus is underway, because it is becoming less possible for Westerners and especially Americans to involve themselves in productive activity within the spreading hotspots of the "War on Terror". Under present policy, many more people are going to meet America in violent and impoverishing experiences. It's out with the do-gooders, and in with the dogs of war. Welcome to the New American Century.

* note

I apologize for the phonetic spelling, "********" (poy-zund) is a forbidden word for some reason. If you also find this curious, we could explore this weirdness over here
 
PacInIraq-Mar30.jpg


What started as just a little censorship in US-occupied Iraq may have some very sticky consequences.
(link)

As it turns out, it seems clear that the newspaper closing played into Muqtada al-Sadr's apocalyptic mindset. He became convinced that it meant the US planned to silence him and destroy his movement, leaving him no choice but to launch an uprising. The Coalition, which just closed a newspaper for 2 months, probably thought of it as a relatively mild response to Sadr's own provocations. But Muqtada saw his father and brothers cut down by Saddam and he is clearly a paranoid personality deeply traumatized by Baath terror against Shiites, and he views the Americans as little different from the Baathists. Saddam also sent warnings to Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, in January of 1999, which were a prelude to Sadiq's assassination in February of that year. In Muqtada's own mind, the Coalition 'warnings' may also have been perceived as a prelude to removing him. The US army appears to have seriously threatened him with arrest or worse last October.

For the US occupation, crisis management will likely be like walking on floating logs from here until the US withdrawal. Just when the Sunni log started rotating faster with the grisly killing of American mercenaries in Fallujah, a Shia intifadeh has been launched. Maybe Uncle Remus had an even better analogy than mine. Sistani's thus-far stabilizing influence may no longer hold sway, which is a very ominous development, because we're not talking about Rumsfeld's minority "dead-enders" anymore.

Perhaps a third of Iraqi Shiites are sympathetic to the radical, Khomeini-like ideology of Sadrism, and some analysts with long experience in Iraq put it at 50%.

Americans, we now have two fists buried deep in De Tar Baby. We had better think carefully before the next knee-jerk.
 
Hype,

Are you proposing that isolationialist views actually saved lives in WWII? Probably not because you use the term "may have". Im simply stating that becuase of the isolationist views of the American Public prior to our entry into WWII Millions of people needlessly died. If we would have entered the War at an earlier stage and thus blunting Hitlers European domination we would have saved millions of people.

No I do not believe that Saddam was a threat- at least not at that point in time. Would he have been if we hadnt been there, yes. Did we put him in power? Yes. Did we screw up Iran. Yes. So what. We made the mistake now we have to fix it.

Lets continue with your isolationist views. We shouldnt have been there during the first war either. With the same logic Isreal should not have destroyed his nuclear facilities. So then Saddam would have a Bomb. If you think that would be a good idea then you are a NUT.

Im just pointing out that your isolationist peace loving views do not save lives they cost lives.

Please explain how peace saved 800,000 Rwandians.
 
Vietraq rising

Here we go! US issues arrest warrant for al-Sadr
Cleric branded "outlaw" sitting in at mosque in Kufa

The Associated Press reports on the inevitable: the US government has issued a warrant for the arrest of Muqtada al-Sadr, a prominent Shiite cleric whose supporters staged riots and assaults in several cities.
The showdown with al-Sadr threatened to heighten tensions with Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority at a time when U.S. troops are burdened by the Sunni guerrillas' bloody insurgency. But American officials apparently hope the Shiite public — many of whom distrust al-Sadr — will not rally around the cleric.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the potential for violence depended on "whether (al-Sadr) decides to come peacefully or whether he decides to come not peacefully. That choice is the choice of Mr. Muqtada al-Sadr."

Al-Sadr, a 30-year-old firebrand who frequently denounces the U.S. occupation in his sermons, vowed to resist.

The Americans "have the money, weapons and huge numbers, but these things are not going to weaken our will because God is with us," he said in a statement sent to the Arab TV station Al-Jazeera, which provided a copy to The Associated Press.

"We don't fear death and martyrdom gives us dignity from God," al-Sadr said.

Several hundred of his armed militiamen control Kufa, holding its police station and blocking a road leading to the main mosque. (AP)
Something strikes me about this situation as apropos, par for the course, only what we could expect.

Just some of the things that drift up to the surface at this point:

• Enemy combatants from the Afghani war are not afforded the Geneva Conventions
• While the Geneva Conventions contain exceptions for heads of state and heads of militaries, Saddam Hussein has been given POW status in accordance with the Geneva Conventions
• The United States has lamented as terrorists the ongoing resistance to the occupation that comes in the form of grenade, rocket, mortar, and IED attacks seemingly at random.
• We now have a militia occupying Kufa.

Something strikes me about "right condition, wrong time." During the war many of us--especially, it seems, some Iraqis--were surprised at how quickly Saddam's forces capitulated in Baghdad. Are we now going to get the street-by-street bloodshed wondered about--even feared--at the outset?
____________________

• Associated Press. "Arrest warrant for radical Shiite cleric announced." Seattle Times, April 5, 2004. See http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001895896_webiraq05.html
 
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Dear Crazy151drinker:

"Isolationialist views"
Look, it's not isolationism to criticise reckless unilateralism. To say doing "x" is a mistake is not to say do nothing. I'm taking a pass on your straw man, you could start a history thread on isolationism, but don't do it expecting to find me on a diametrically opposite side from you.

"Did we put him in power? Yes. Did we screw up Iran. Yes. So what. We made the mistake now we have to fix it."

Sometimes when you've screwed up badly and visibly enough in someone else's domain, it's more prudent to back down.

"...your isolationist views..."
-from your perspective, then you go on to put words in my mouth:
"...We shouldnt have been there during the first war either. With the same logic Isreal should not have destroyed his nuclear facilities. So then Saddam would have a Bomb. If you think that would be a good idea then you are a NUT."
That's both personal attack, guilt by association, false dilemma, and who knows what else.

"Im just pointing out that your isolationist peace loving views do not save lives they cost lives."
No you're not. You're inventing and imbellishing on my position, and then pronouncing what the impact of my position is on the world.

"Please explain how peace saved 800,000 Rwandians.
Do a little background reading and you'll have more to say, then start a thread on Rwanda, and I'll be glad to discuss how the de-escalation of violence, and at least some internationally-sponsered programs have and are arguably saving untold thousands of lives there. The Rwandan catastrophe has generated a great deal of soul-searching within the UN about how to secure a true mandate for future situations like this. A legitimate mandate is missing in the US occupation of Iraq, and no amount of firepower is going to substitute for that. Regarding Rwanda, even though it's way off topic, here are a few sources your concern should motivate you to spend a few minutes with, and I'll be glad to discuss that subject in another thread:

PBS Frontline- INteractive Rwanda Background
International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda
Human Rights Watch- Rwanda Ten Years Later
UN Anti-Genocide Plan
 
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Some Dire News from the Colony:

At least 12 US marines are reported to have been killed and about two dozen others injured in a ferocious attack on their position in the Iraqi city of Ramadi.
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"There may have been as many as a dozen Marine deaths," the official said, adding that a "significant number" of Iraqis were also killed in the exchange of fire.
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Falluja fight
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Ramadi, 80km west of capital Baghdad, is close to Falluja – currently under siege by US occupation forces.
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CNN said it appeared the attack in Ramadi had been carried out by supporters of the ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and not by followers of the Shia leader Moqtada Sadr, whose fighters have been battling occupation troops in several places in Iraq.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/86EBAB6B-FB76-4811-AB87-A82B035A36FA.htm

In response:

The US is considering sending military reinforcements to Iraq.
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"The events of the weekend show an obvious potential for more demonstrations and more violence," a Central Command official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
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"But the situation is obviously very serious," said retired general William Nash, a veteran of the Bosnian conflict.
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"There's always a possibility that in the short term they might
add some response forces, but I think they're kind of trapped by their own rhetoric and I don't think they will bring in any more," he said.
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Sadr is "already marginalised by most of the Shiite community," the official said.
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But he acknowledged that Sadr "does have a strong following in a minor group" that includes "3000 militia members".
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C92751A6-4ABF-4CE3-80A6-9D9099492D44.htm

Things are not looking grand in Iraq as Bush was to have expected.

8C14BCCACC9D4CCB832036013F34AD13.jpg
 
U.S. Hits Mosque Compound; 40 Said Killed

That's one way to get the country on your side. It's absolutely rediculous. The US (out of the goodness of its heart) went to liberate a country. Now it turns out that the liberated Shiites are turning against its liberators. Those ungrateful bastards! Bomb them All! Mission accomplished!
 
"All im saying is that putting your head in the Sand solves nothing."

I wholeheartedly agree. There is much the US can and must eventually do in our self interest, without recklessly ignoring the most basic historical lessons of colonialism, imperialism, guerrilla warfare, assymetrical warfare, Arab and Muslim sentiment, World sentiment, domestic security vulnerability, domestic energy vulnerability, economic vulnerability, and human nature.

It takes a little patience to repeatedly assert that present foreign policy is not the only alternative to inaction, so I hope that you will reciprocate a little effort in sincerely considering some alternatives, as I and others (hopefully) offer them.
 
Hype,

Yes, there is alot we can do- however, once again it requires the opposing sides to do the same thing. Thats were the problem is! You will NEVER change the fact that people want to have power. We cannot change Hitler, or Mao or any other brutal dictator. Even with our 'brutal' foriegn policy we still have genocides. While it would be nice to live in a world were everyone was nice, it will never happen.
 
Borrowing a headline: One mosque, one missile, forty dead
"Kill them all, oh mighty God! With you we shelter from their evilness."

We'll start with an excerpt from The Scotsman:
PINNED down and taking casualties, the US marines called for air strikes against the fighters dug in at the nearby mosque.

At least twice, their commanders refused. "We’ve got to be careful," said one officer, according to a Washington Post reporter with the marines in Fallujah.

Again the request came. "We have some bad folks dug in. They’re creating a problem for us. What should we do? We need back-up."

Soon after, a missile and a 500lb laser-guided bomb slammed into the compound with devastating results. According to witnesses, the strike came as worshippers were gathering for afternoon prayers. The bodies of dead and wounded were rushed away in cars to private homes in the area, where temporary hospitals had been set up.

Although the Abdul-Aziz al-Samarrai mosque was undamaged, part of the wall surrounding it was demolished. Witnesses said up to 40 people had died. It was not clear whether the dead were civilians or fighters.
The CNN report I heard earlier told the story differently, sounded considerably less-sympathetic to American actions. Air Force commanders, according to one televised report, twice refused the mission.

I hope to follow up on that with a reference.

Nonetheless, the situation on the ground sounds ugly; if it was tank fire or some-such that took down the wall at the Abdul-Aziz al-Samarrai mosque, I might have a different opinion, but the words of Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne speak well enough:
"We believe we killed a bunch of these guys," Lt-Col Byrne said. "Marines will never do anything like this unless fired upon."
As I understand it, Marines don't like to waste ammunition; especially in the form of airstrikes.

At the same time, though, with forty dead and much confusion among the Iraqis, I can't say this is a positive development. By this point in the war, when "bringing back Saddam" is a joke of wistful macabre, we can safely presume the Iraqi patience thinned and thinning. Regardless of whether or not we consider the Coalition true "good guys" of a new conflict, this is an unfortunate turn for the PR image, and in that Iraqi patience and cooperation.

Things will, obviously, get worse before they get better. But still ....

Additionally, the article mentions 25 dead on Tuesday allegedly from a US missile fired into a house.

And here's an interesting note from the Scotsman article:
In the Sunni city of Ramadi, where 12 US marines were killed on Tuesday night, portraits of Sadr and graffiti praising his "valiant uprising" appeared on mosque and government building walls.
Sunnis praising a Shiite firebrand? Hey, what do you know? G.W. Bush is a uniter, not a divider.

What's happening in this war ... in Seattle and around the state, we have a phrase for it: Bush is couging it.°
As Mr Abid and his two sons began to pray, a few bursts of gunfire hit their neighbour’s home.

Women in the house next door screamed. Mr Abid’s wife shouted at her husband and sons not to go outside. "You want to get killed, are you crazy?" Umm Ali cried. "Don’t you see they are shooting civilians?".

Mr Abid’s prayers got louder, as he appealed to God to rid the town of the US forces attacking it.

"Kill them all, oh mighty God," he said. "With you we shelter from their evilness." (The Scotsman)
On a personal note: Well, I was only a couple days ahead of the military on this one. From a couple posts ago:

• "During the war many of us--especially, it seems, some Iraqis--were surprised at how quickly Saddam's forces capitulated in Baghdad. Are we now going to get the street-by-street bloodshed wondered about--even feared--at the outset?" (Tiassa, 4.5.2004)

And this, from the BBC:
The BBC's Pentagon correspondent Nick Childs says US officials accept that troops are now engaged in the most difficult type of fighting - the kind of urban warfare that never really materialised in the initial stages of the conflict. (BBC, 4.7.2004)
We should be hearing more about this aspect as the days go by.
____________________

Notes:

° couging it - "Couging it" is a disparaging term relating to the Washington State University Cougars football program. It is a term that refers to ineptly blowing a sure thing; allowing a comeback when the other team isn't playing well enough to deserve it; when the comeback comes not on the merit of the other team's performance, but on the demerit of your preferred team's mistakes. It's different from "not showing up to the fight." It would be a little more akin to me knocking out Mike Tyson because he forgot how to box.

• The Scotsman. "One mosque, one missile, forty dead." April 8, 2004. See http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=397512004
• BBC News. "US bombards Iraq mosque complex." April 7, 2004. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3609665.stm
 
Hype,

Ok, here is my alternative:
Super Aliens from mars can come down and zap the world with love rays and thus stop the violence.

An Alternative: Yes. Reality: No
 
Hey Crazy
How about this.
You put this chat with Hype on hold for a couple of months, say to around the end of June, then you can both look again at the ongoing situation in Iraq and decide who was right and who was wrong.
By then, I imagine Iraq will be well on it's way to being an Islamic theocracy and America can pat itself on the back (again) for a job well done. Meanwhile this thread gets to stay on topic.

Doubles all round!
Dee Cee
 
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