new worlds with different mathematics

Well the posts numbers 4 and 13 seemed somewhat a propos. But I can respond to the creationist nutjobs if you like:

4. "Atheism is supported by logic."

Not only is this wrong, just the opposite is true. In logic, it's
impossible to prove a negative, that is, prove that a God Who Can Do
Anything doesn't exist. When someone claims he is an atheist, he is in
effect claiming to have proven a negative (at least to himself)-which is a
logical impossibility. In terms of pure logic, the only viable alternative
to theism is actually agnosticism, which is the belief that the existence of
God cannot be known. But atheism runs counter to logic.

Most atheists contend, and I agree, that if you simply do not believe in deity then you are an atheist. I believe any honest (not Webster's) dictionary will support this interpretation. By this definition the burden of proof is clearly on the theist if as is often the case the theist claims to know some deity or other exists.

That said, many or perhaps most atheists actually do have a positive belief that there is no deity. However, very few will claim to have certain knowledge there is no deity. I consider that I myself am very atheist but even I don't claim to have certain knowledge of a lack of deity. To hold this position of strong but less-than-certain disbelief is indeed perfectly logical. The belief in a lack of deity is exactly the same as, say, the belief that there are not in actuality six-foot tall suit-wearing rabbits that can only be seen by James Stewart. Now, you may say, there was divinely-inspired movie about this, but I will simply assert that the movie is merely a work of fiction. There really is no extra-Harvey-movie evidence whatsoever that invisible six-foot tall suit wearing rabbits that can be seen only by Jimmie Stewart really do exist. In fact, there is no good argument for them to exist, nothing that is parsimoniously explained by their existence, and plenty of good reasons to think that these kind of large invisible but highly fashionable rabbits are not real. But I am not certain they are not real.

About agnosticism, the original use of the term by Huxley was describing a belief that it is impossible to know whether deity exists, not the mere lack of belief in a deity. Personally I consider this original meaning of agnosticism to be a faith position. It may be that it's impossible to kow whether deity exists but I don't have a basis for believing it's impossible. It's only clearly impossible if one allows the definition of deity to be so vague as to be meaningless. It's clear many deity concepts are self-contradictory (like, for example, the "God" of the Bible), and so logically can't exist. The deity of Deism, say, is more difficult show to be impossible, clearly, but to claim actual impossibility of refutation is to adopt an unjustified position.
 
Well the posts numbers 4 and 13 seemed somewhat a propos. But I can respond to the creationist nutjobs if you like:



Most atheists contend, and I agree, that if you simply do not believe in deity then you are an atheist. I believe any honest (not Webster's) dictionary will support this interpretation. By this definition the burden of proof is clearly on the theist if as is often the case the theist claims to know some deity or other exists.
therefore you see that there are normative descriptions given in scripture - in other words there are not only positive claims ("god exists") but also claims how one has to be/act in order to verify the claim.

That said, many or perhaps most atheists actually do have a positive belief that there is no deity. However, very few will claim to have certain knowledge there is no deity. I consider that I myself am very atheist but even I don't claim to have certain knowledge of a lack of deity. To hold this position of strong but less-than-certain disbelief is indeed perfectly logical. The belief in a lack of deity is exactly the same as, say, the belief that there are not in actuality six-foot tall suit-wearing rabbits that can only be seen by James Stewart. Now, you may say, there was divinely-inspired movie about this, but I will simply assert that the movie is merely a work of fiction. There really is no extra-Harvey-movie evidence whatsoever that invisible six-foot tall suit wearing rabbits that can be seen only by Jimmie Stewart really do exist. In fact, there is no good argument for them to exist, nothing that is parsimoniously explained by their existence, and plenty of good reasons to think that these kind of large invisible but highly fashionable rabbits are not real. But I am not certain they are not real.
there is however a good argument for the existence of god, and normative descriptions to go with it
About agnosticism, the original use of the term by Huxley was describing a belief that it is impossible to know whether deity exists, not the mere lack of belief in a deity. Personally I consider this original meaning of agnosticism to be a faith position. It may be that it's impossible to kow whether deity exists but I don't have a basis for believing it's impossible. It's only clearly impossible if one allows the definition of deity to be so vague as to be meaningless. It's clear many deity concepts are self-contradictory (like, for example, the "God" of the Bible), and so logically can't exist.
before you begin to talk about the clarity of your views, maybe you should elaborate on how you have met the criteria of normative descriptions given in scripture
 
13. "Can your all-powerful God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to move?"

Excellent choice here because this one does get right to the topic of this thread.

I believe (no pun intended) that Thomas Aquinas addressed this issue or similar ones and wrote that of course even "God" cannot do things that are logically contradictory. So, Aquinas concluded that even deity is bound by logic.

The writer of the response at the creatist site is basically agreeing with Aquinas, seems to me.

So, "God" is not able to do contradictory things and so is bound by logic and thus cannot create a universe where 1 + 1 = 3. A god bound by logic is not only not all-powerful, it is powerless and irrelevant.
 
Excellent choice here because this one does get right to the topic of this thread.

I believe (no pun intended) that Thomas Aquinas addressed this issue or similar ones and wrote that of course even "God" cannot do things that are logically contradictory. So, Aquinas concluded that even deity is bound by logic.

The writer of the response at the creatist site is basically agreeing with Aquinas, seems to me.

So, "God" is not able to do contradictory things and so is bound by logic and thus cannot create a universe where 1 + 1 = 3. A god bound by logic is not only not all-powerful, it is powerless and irrelevant.


the link says that?

I've read a few long and complicated "answers" to this apparent dilemma,
but the fact is, the question itself is problematic, much like the question,
"Can God run and walk at the same time?" or even the often-quoted statement,
"Everything I say is a lie." (If everything I say is a lie, then that
statement itself is a lie, so I must therefore be telling the truth. But if
I'm telling the truth, then everything I say must be a lie, and we're back
to square one.) All three examples illustrate the limitations of the human
mind and its logic. The "rock" question doesn't say anything about the
nature of God nor His power, but our own inability to comprehend something
that is beyond our understanding.
 
I looked up "normative" in wikipedia and I still don't know what you mean by it. Can you explain what is the meaning in your usage?

I would be interested to hear a "good" argument for the existence of deity. It's not going to be, "We don't know why there is a universe and so therefore a magic man done it", is it? 'Cause if it is, this is my answer:

1) Saying it was done by magic is not an explanation of anything.
2) There is a compelling explanation for existence that doesn't need a creator or supernaturalism, is completely consistent with all reliable observation, and has been known since Plato - that is that the universe is a mathematical object
 
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the link says that?

I've read a few long and complicated "answers" to this apparent dilemma,
but the fact is, the question itself is problematic, much like the question,
"Can God run and walk at the same time?" or even the often-quoted statement,
"Everything I say is a lie." (If everything I say is a lie, then that
statement itself is a lie, so I must therefore be telling the truth. But if
I'm telling the truth, then everything I say must be a lie, and we're back
to square one.) All three examples illustrate the limitations of the human
mind and its logic. The "rock" question doesn't say anything about the
nature of God nor His power, but our own inability to comprehend something
that is beyond our understanding.
Something can look like a question and not be one.

Just putting a question mark at the end of a string of words does not make it a question.

Questions like "Can God move an immoveable rock", "Can God run and walk at the same time?" and statements like "This sentence is a lie" contradict themselves internally, so are meaningless.
They look like questions, but are nonsense. My initial question may be of this type, and it may be the equivalent of saying "Can God make 1+1 the same as not 1+1?"

But this doesn't resolve the problem. It confirms it.
If we take it that verything God does is reasonable, logical and possible because otherwise there would be a self contradiction, then God can only have created this World if it was reasonable, logical and possible to do so.

If your reply is "It's something we can't comprehend", I accept that as a belief, but it's not an answer to the question.
 
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the link says that?

Like I said, seems to me.

Maybe you're right though. The writer is not as intellectually courageous as Aquinas. Rather than taking a position on the question he prefers to hide behind that old "human limitations" canard.
 
before you begin to talk about the clarity of your views, maybe you should elaborate on how you have met the criteria of normative descriptions given in scripture

Like I said, I have no idea what you are getting at here or why I should meet the "criteria of normative descriptions given in scripture".

If you were to ask me in what way or ways is it clear the "God" of the bible can't exist, that is the kind of thing I could respond to.
 
I looked up "normative" in wikipedia and I still don't know what you mean by it. Can you explain what is the meaning in your usage?

I would be interested to hear a "good" argument for the existence of deity. It's not going to be, "We don't know why there is a universe and so therefore a magic man done it", is it? 'Cause if it is, this is my answer:

1) Saying it was done by magic is not an explanation of anything.
2) There is a compelling explanation for existence that doesn't need a creator or supernaturalism, is completely consistent with all reliable observation, and has been known since Plato - that is that the universe is a mathematical object

nor·ma·tive / Ñ 'nO;mJtIv; NAmE Ñ 'nO;rm-/ adjective(formal) describing or setting standards or rules of behaviour:

normative descriptions describe what one should do (as opposed to what people do do)

in other words normative descriptions in relation to knowledge say how one has to act in order to know something

as for a good argument for god's existence, to begin with it is not sufficient to declare that the universe is mathematical, since consciousness certainly defies any reductionist paradigms - in other words it is observed that matter has no capacity to be independent of consciousness (how many millions of years do you propose it would take for a room with a packet of crayons and a roll of paper to manifest into a picture of the sun bereft of the conscious contribution of a six year old?) - so there are severe issues for number 2
 
Something can look like a question and not be one.

Just putting a question mark at the end of a string of words does not make it a question.

Questions like "Can God move an immoveable rock", "Can God run and walk at the same time?" and statements like "This sentence is a lie" contradict themselves internally, so are meaningless.
They look like questions, but are nonsense. My initial question may be of this type, and it may be the equivalent of saying "Can God make 1+1 the same as not 1+1?"

But this doesn't resolve the problem. It confirms it.
If we take it that verything God does is reasonable, logical and possible because otherwise there would be a self contradiction, then God can only have created this World if it was reasonable, logical and possible to do so.

If your reply is "It's something we can't comprehend", I accept that as a belief, but it's not an answer to the question.

an issue surrounds the bit in bold - namely reasonable, logical and possible according to what authority?
(21st century empiricism?)

your q boils down to whether or not god is constrained by material limits - if an entity is omnipotent (any "1" of anything is contingent on god) this is not an issue

Iso Invocation: The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.

in other words in god's books, 1-1=1 and 1+1=1
 
an issue surrounds the bit in bold - namely reasonable, logical and possible according to what authority?
(21st century empiricism?)

your q boils down to whether or not god is constrained by material limits - if an entity is omnipotent (any "1" of anything is contingent on god) this is not an issue

Iso Invocation: The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the Complete Whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the Complete Whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance.

in other words in god's books, 1-1=1 and 1+1=1
Yes, I do Ithink like a person from the 20th Century. I don't believe that witches ride round on broomsticks, and I think that medicine is probably better than exorcism for people with mental problems. How else am I supposed to think.

You ask me by what authority I am judging reasonableness, logic and
possibility. Can you tell me what kind of authority you would find acceptable?
 
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I find it hard to believe that this tread resulted in so many posts.

If there is a universe in which 1 + 1 = 3, then all of our science collapses. Computers do not function, gravitational equations are invalid, the ratio of circumference to diameter might be 5.25, et cetera.

While the laws of physics might be different in other universes, mathematical logic has got to be valid.

If the theist view supports such nonsense, it seems like a cogent argument against theism (I am an atheist who welcomes any anti-theist argument, and this one is a dandy).

Do any of you folks really believe in the posssibility that 1 + 1 = 3 when you are not smoking, drinking, or sniffing some strange substance?

BTW: In the absence of some cogent arguments or supporting evidence, I think that it is nonsense to consider that other universes exist and that if they do, the laws of physics are fundamentally different there.
 
They may have meant that one and one equal three in actual practice not theory. For instance, if the laws worked in such a way in a hypothetical universe by that when you add one and one, the one always being attached to or attracting another one equaling three or some other possible variant yet an unquestioned natural and reoccuring law there.
 
Colin Kapp's The Unorthodox Engineers covered a lot of this.
 
Yes, I do Ithink like a person from the 20th Century. I don't believe that witches ride round on broomsticks, and I think that medicine is probably better than exorcism for people with mental problems. How else am I supposed to think.
if you think like a person of the 20th century then I am afraid you are old hat (my point was not so much about broom sticks and exorcisms, but the fact that the knowledge base that enables distinctions between the rational and irrational undergoes changes/reforms - so to say something like

If we take it that verything God does is reasonable, logical and possible because otherwise there would be a self contradiction, then God can only have created this World if it was reasonable, logical and possible to do so.


means that god would have changed his capacities between the 20th and 21st century to keep on par with advancements in technology
:m:

You ask me by what authority I am judging reasonableness, logic and
possibility. Can you tell me what kind of authority you would find acceptable?
if god is greater than us (which tends to be indicated in whatever scripture you care to mention) then obviously he would have a greater sense of reason, logic and possibility - we can travel a certain distance in understanding god by our powers of reason and intellect - but at a certain crucial point we are required to adopt practice and not just theory.[/QUOTE]
 
I find it hard to believe that this tread resulted in so many posts.

If there is a universe in which 1 + 1 = 3, then all of our science collapses. Computers do not function, gravitational equations are invalid, the ratio of circumference to diameter might be 5.25, et cetera.

While the laws of physics might be different in other universes, mathematical logic has got to be valid.

If the theist view supports such nonsense, it seems like a cogent argument against theism (I am an atheist who welcomes any anti-theist argument, and this one is a dandy).

Do any of you folks really believe in the posssibility that 1 + 1 = 3 when you are not smoking, drinking, or sniffing some strange substance?

BTW: In the absence of some cogent arguments or supporting evidence, I think that it is nonsense to consider that other universes exist and that if they do, the laws of physics are fundamentally different there.

how is it possible for an omnipotent omniscient entity to ultimately expand or diminish?

(in otherwords addition or subtraction are not issues that affect god)
 
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