New Wikileaks Dump is Unconscionable

Tiassa said:
I have a hard time believing anyone can credibly claim to be shocked by what we're learning from the WikiLeaks releases. The only real question is whether the affirmation of what many already knew suspected means anything to a given individual.
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of course it does. if one does not have proof, one only has a "conspiracy theory", a "suspicion" that one perhaps hopes will not be borne out by fact. when mere "rumors" morph into factual accounts of misconduct, i personally get a sick feeling in my stomach. to say i get "shocked" would be overstating the case but seriously, why not some level of discomfort? i actually see more pathology in those that brush these accounts off as inconsequential

here
in black and white...

wikileaks.png


....and blue

/eek

hype
you talking shit about assange again?
 
Tiassa said:
• Killing of civilians, including two Reuters journalists, in 2007, by U.S. military.

• Willful American support of Iraqi torture of detained suspects.

• At least 15,000 Iraqi civilian casualties not previously acknowledged by the Pentagon.

• State Dept. espionage against UN officials.

• Obama administration's efforts to stop international torture inquiries (e.g., Spain, Germany) targeting American suspects.

• Yemeni, American governments lied to public about missile strikes against terror suspects.

• Pentagon lied to pretty much everyone about the state of affairs in Iraq during the lawless years following the invasion.

• UK government (under Brown) colluded with United States government to protect alleged American wrongdoing from British inquiry.

• American troops on ground in Pakistan.

• US government overstating progress in Afghanistan.[/indent]

And those are just the ones pertaining to the US government's integrity; a partial list, at that.

I think, in the end, the question of what has been revealed that might denigrate the integrity of our government is a matter of two points:

• How one perceives the integrity of the American government, anyway.

• How much of what we learn through the WikiLeaks releases actually surprises us.​

Many are cynical toward the American government, anyway. The idea that our government appears two-faced, fork-tongued, or otherwise dishonorably silly from time to time is common. Some people believe that's the every-day way of governing.
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It's a war Tiassa.

You know, with over 1 MILLION man years of troops on the ground in Iraq and most of them enlisted men, you know there will ALWAYS be a certain number of events.

What Wiki-leaks actually shows is how miniscule these negative events were.

You seem to think that if our troops aren't pure in action and never do anything wrong that the whole action is wrong.

Are you THAT naive?


Nor does this cast ANY doubt about the integrity of the US government.

To the contrary, there are as yet no bombshells in anything yet released.

Which is why as a news story it has pretty much died....

No legs.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/22/cia-responds-to-wikileaks-wtf/

Arthur
 
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Gustav said:
i actually see more pathology in those that brush these accounts off as inconsequential
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& then adoucette on cue... is this some kind of conspiracy?


_______________________________________​


The below is not a conspiracy, but an initiative on my part. I'm hoping to assist in keeping discussions on topic with some redirection. We have 3+ threads pertaining to WikiLeaks running right now. I am moving/redirecting these, to where I hope they may undergo further focus, examination and discussion in topical context.



(this thread you are reading here has been moved also)​












Gustav said:
hype
you talking shit about assange again?
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I must avoid diverting this thread into discussion of Assange's character. Looking closely at the dump orifice oracle seems closest to thread topic so considering the contexts available above :rolleyes:
I will henceforth confine my, um, criticism of Assange here:
Ethics, Morality, & Justice: How will Assange be punished for attempting to advance democracy?

As another example, for examination of the politics of whistleblowing in general, I would look to and post here:
Politics: Whistleblowing and Patriotism

I'm presently composing an opening post for a thread devoted to breaking news sourced from WikiLeaks (with I hope some understandable differentiation from the above threads):
World Events: WikiLeaks Stories
 
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Following up on my earlier posts, which some members of sciforums were surprised at, because I did not support Assange in his indiscriminate leaking of information.

After watching John Pilger's Documentary "The War You Don't See", I have a better idea of the justification for such leaks.

My objection was that leaks of this type did not allow businesses and Governments to go about their legitimate business, and that the current batch of leaks in particular were mainly trivial, and that the only purpose in leaking them had to be mischief making and a semi racist anti-American feeling.

After watching this documentary, I do understand the reasoning behind the Philosophy of general leaking better.
It is a rough and probably useless plaster applied upon a grievous wound.
That wound is on the body of journalistic truth.

I would ask you to watch some of it.
It is one of the finest documentaries I have ever seen.

It's long.
Just watch part one of seven, and see if you'd like to continue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egcTynu6sBk
 
Captain Kremmen said:
I have a better idea of the justification for such leaks.
My objection was that leaks of this type did not allow businesses and Governments to go about their legitimate business, and that the current batch of leaks in particular were mainly trivial, and that the only purpose in leaking them had to be mischief making and a semi racist anti-American feeling.
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If they were in essence trivial, we would not be seeing the obsessive and violent response from the US. Cable reading between the lines, US cynicism, deceit and arrogance, is clearly exposed.

Not forgetting that there are plenty more cables yet to be released.

After watching this documentary, I do understand the reasoning behind the Philosophy of general leaking better.
It is a rough and probably useless plaster applied upon a grievous wound.
That wound is on the body of journalistic truth.
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"Journalistic Truth", in general, is long dead and buried. Political and foreign policy agendas and interests, special and other, are deeply embedded in the melting pot of media and finance, and everyone is feeding in the same trough. Not often is a journalist brave enough to step outside this zone. Pilger is one one of the very few to challenge the status quo. :m:

(PS. Lose that wannabe cricketer avatar, its disturbing.)
 
StrawDog said:
If they were in essence trivial, we would not be seeing the obsessive and violent response from the US.
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Depends on what it is that's supposed to be "trivial." The State Department may well be bothered by publication of breaches in its security and the corresponding dimunition of its privacy, quite apart from the question of whether any of the disclosed contents are troublesome as such.
 
quadraphonics said:
Depends on what it is that's supposed to be "trivial." The State Department may well be bothered by publication of breaches in its security and the corresponding dimunition of its privacy,
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Absolutely.
quite apart from the question of whether any of the disclosed contents are troublesome as such.
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Which is nevertheless creating substantial damage in regard to mutual "trustworthiness" amongst both friend and foe. :m:
 
StrawDog said:
"Journalistic Truth", in general, is long dead and buried. Political and foreign policy agendas and interests, special and other, are deeply embedded in the melting pot of media and finance, and everyone is feeding in the same trough. Not often is a journalist brave enough to step outside this zone. Pilger is one one of the very few to challenge the status quo. :m:
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The Pilger Film is tremendous.
Please do watch the start of it at least, as it shows one of the most important wikileaks, one which is truly a whistle blowing and not the current scatttergun revelations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egcTynu6sBk

The most important thing that the documentary discusses is how the misinformation and control of information is continuing, and that if we are not careful we will be dragged into a new war, with Iran this time.

PS. Lose that wannabe cricketer avatar, its disturbing.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
It'll be gone soon, but I warn you that when the next ashes arrive, I will have a new cricketer.
I think you said the same to me last year when I had Ponting.
Someone did.
 
Captain Kremmen said:
The Pilger Film is tremendous.
Please do watch the start of it at least, as it shows one of the most important wikileaks, one which is truly a whistle blowing and not the current scatttergun revelations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egcTynu6sBk
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Yep, this is on my list to do.

Also, watch Pilgers doco - "The War on Democracy", from about 3 years ago if you can. Its most enlightening.

The most important thing that the documentary discusses is how the misinformation and control of information is continuing, and that if we are not careful we will be dragged into a new war, with Iran this time.
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Absolutely, my posts on this board have been saying exactly that for quite a while. In a nutshell, do NOT trust government, and remember, in essence they are in place to serve YOU the citizen, and not visa versa. :m:

PS. Lose that wannabe cricketer avatar, its disturbing.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
It'll be gone soon, but I warn you that when the next ashes arrive, I will have a new cricketer.
I think you said the same to me last year when I had Ponting.
Someone did.
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Yes, it seems I was more than correct about wannabe Ponting. Hopefully by the time the next Ashes arrive, Oz will have a decent team and not the mob of pensioners it presently has. :D
 
StrawDog said:
Which is nevertheless creating substantial damage in regard to mutual "trustworthiness" amongst both friend and foe. :m:
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Only in a transient sense, though. The final result will be increased security and secrecy at the State Department (which means greater information segmentation and so poorer analysis and awareness) - i.e., a systematic move towards even less openness and transparency.

Embarassing the State Department is good laughs and all, but I'm having a hard time seeing where this project actually decreases organizational secrecy. On the contrary, it seems to provide a strong incentive for organizations to aspire to total opacity (and so, immunity to the likes of WikiLeaks, which can only target organizations that are at least semi-open to begin with).
 
quadraphonics said:
Only in a transient sense, though. The final result will be increased security and secrecy at the State Department (which means greater information segmentation and so poorer analysis and awareness) - i.e., a systematic move towards even less openness and transparency.

Embarassing the State Department is good laughs and all, but I'm having a hard time seeing where this project actually decreases organizational secrecy. On the contrary, it seems to provide a strong incentive for organizations to aspire to total opacity (and so, immunity to the likes of WikiLeaks, which can only target organizations that are at least semi-open to begin with).
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Yes Quadra, I absolutely agree with you. The doors are banging shut harder than ever before. And of course we have other potential areas of fall out, including limiting this wonderful medium we are using to communicate with right now.

Hopefully, there are still enough heroes on all levels of the inside to continue sharing information relating to human depravity?

(Best wishes for the New Year to you)
 
It seems that the US government is over-stepping its boundaries yet again and harassing those who were close to Wikileaks:


A member of parliament in Iceland who is also a former WikiLeaks volunteer says the US justice department has ordered Twitter to hand over her private messages.

Birgitta Jonsdottir, an MP for the Movement in Iceland, said last night on Twitter that the "USA government wants to know about all my tweets and more since november 1st 2009. Do they realize I am a member of parliament in Iceland?"

She said she was starting a legal fight to stop the US getting hold of her messages, after being told by Twitter that a subpoena had been issued. She wrote: "department of justice are requesting twitter to provide the info – I got 10 days to stop it via legal process before twitter hands it over."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/08/us-twitter-hand-icelandic-wikileaks-messages
 
Mrs.Lucysnow said:
Birgitta Jonsdottir, an MP for the Movement in Iceland, said last night on Twitter that the "USA government wants to know about all my tweets and more since november 1st 2009. Do they realize I am a member of parliament in Iceland?"
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Does Birgitta not realize that Twitter is an American company based in San Fransisco?

Arthur
 
adoucette said:
Because the US Gov can serve a US company with a subpoena for that kind of info, don't matter who she is or where she lives/tweets from.

Arthur
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And the consequences of this would be what exactly in your opinion? The fact that being a customer of a US company can lead to such a request? I mean I know that Americans are now accustomed to having their cell phones and laptops pulled by border officials without just cause and having their so called civil liberties impinged upon but that doesn't mean the rest of the world has to go along with it.

Read the article. Her government can stop this injunction and have 10 days to do it. US companies STILL have to succumb to national laws and attitudes if they want to operate.
 
@Adoucette

"She is not the first WikiLeaks associate to be targeted by US officials. Last July Jacob Appelbaum, one of Assange's closest colleagues, was interrogated for three hours and had his phones confiscated upon entering the country at Newark airport. Customs officials photocopied receipts and searched his laptop."..."In Iceland she has championed the Icelandic Modern Media Initiative which is aimed at creating legislation to make Iceland a legal haven for journalists and media outlets."


Does it not concern you AT ALL that the government, which conservative republicans always complain plays too much in the affairs of the individual is using these methods to wage an attack against freedom of speech, opinion, expression and association? Are they going to haul in all volunteers who worked with an agency that worked as a guard dog against governmental abuses and exigencies? Or are all Americans from both parties suffering from Schizophrenia?

From the same article:

Marc Rotenberg, president of the online watchdog the Electronic Privacy Information Centre (EPIC) in Washington, said it appeared the US justice department was looking at building a case against WikiLeaks and its founder, Julian Assange, over its publication of secret US documents.

EPIC has already requested that the US authorities hand over information about their investigations into people who have donated to WikiLeaks via Mastercard, Visa or PayPal.

"The government has the right to get information, but that has to be done in a lawful way. Is there a lawful prosecution that could be brought against WikiLeaks? It seems unlikely to me. But it's a huge question here in the US," said Rotenberg.

Jonsdottir was involved in WikiLeaks' release last year of a video which showed a US military helicopter shooting two Reuters reporters in Iraq. US authorities believe the video was leaked by Private Bradley Manning.
 
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