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The Lost Lamb

Registered Member
For some time now I have wavered, thinking to accept my faith, that presented by the Bible, or diverge from the beaten path . . . and try something new. This idea is fairly disturbing, since I'd always thougt doubtful indecision was sinful on its own.
As for atheism, it always seemed so hopeless . . . like some kind of twisted resignation.
Ethically, most of the bible is sound. I don't believe there can be any question about that . . . But the fact is scripture seems to make less and less sense to me. It seems so odd that a being like God would bother create humans, much less make regulations and punishments for their life. Could someone please give me some solution or clarification . . . or at the least give some other advice . . . I need to find some relief . . .

In Jesus' Love,
The Lost Lamb
 
The Lost Lamb,

Welcome to sciforums. I can certainly appreciate the "spiritual dilemma" you are currently experiencing. I will tell you straight out right now that the below advice is from an atheistic perspective. You can decide for yourself whether it is worth considering, but I hope it will be helpful to you.

I have found that Christianity (as well as other Abrahamic religions) tends to instill feelings of guilt for doubting its teachings. This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons why this religion has remained such an enduring force in society despite the contradictions and illogic that you appear to be encountering therein. Having been a former faithful Christian myself, I am grateful to have escaped this "mind trap" and now see this type of thinking for what it is. And I will tell you that I am a much happier person because of it.

I must respectfully disagree with you about what the Bible can offer in terms of ethics. Peppered throughout the book are examples of intolerance, violence, and even genocide. While there are also examples of goodness, one does not need a book to determine what is right and wrong. It is better, in my opinion, to live by a code of ethics that is based on reason rather than authority.

I'd like to address your comment about how atheism seems hopeless, like a resignation. I am an atheist. I do not believe there is a God. I also do not believe there is an afterlife (note that some atheists may believe in an afterlife). I do not see this as hopelessness or as a resignation. I exuberantly affirm and celebrate life. There are so many joys and pleasures to experience. I am very grateful (to no one in particular) to have gotten a chance to live my life, even if it is only for a short period in the grand scheme of things. Not knowing the nuances of how it came to be only deepens the mystery for me. Attributing it arbitrarily to some entity seems pointless. There is a type of unparalleled contentment that comes with accepting life for what it is (at least what we know it to be), something that faith could never offer me.

It seems like spirituality is something that is important to you. If you wish to "try something new", I might suggest you take a look at scientific pantheism, a spiritual philosophy that accepts the world for what it is and expects nothing in return.

My one piece of advice for you would be to find strength and relief within yourself, in being part of this wonderful existence. Cherish life. Enjoy nature. I hope you find the answers you seek, or at least find contentment in accepting that sometimes there really are no answers, at least not the ones we are often seeking to find.

Revering the universe, caring for nature, celebrating life,

Kohl
 
Originally posted by The Lost Lamb
For some time now I have wavered, thinking to accept my faith, that presented by the Bible, or diverge from the beaten path . . . and try something new. This idea is fairly disturbing, since I'd always thougt doubtful indecision was sinful on its own. As for atheism, it always seemed so hopeless . . . like some kind of twisted resignation.
Ethically, most of the bible is sound. I don't believe there can be any question about that . . . But the fact is scripture seems to make less and less sense to me. It seems so odd that a being like God would bother create humans, much less make regulations and punishments for their life. Could someone please give me some solution or clarification . . . or at the least give some other advice . . . I need to find some relief . . .

In Jesus' Love,
The Lost Lamb
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Dear Lamb, your signature says it all. You are lost in your perception of Xianity which has stirred confusion and doubt that stems from your beliefs in a falsehood. This has unfortunately warped your sensibility of what is right and what is wrong. I can feel your fear in NOT believing what has been handed to you, but to ease your mind, your questioning is in no way sinful. Although I am not an atheist, I do not believe that atheism denies hope. An atheist is more pure of heart than a Xian who's heart has been polluted with lies. I would also say that your belief that the bible is ethical and sound has probably created some of the mess in your mind. You are wise to sense that scripture may be questionable. You're definitely off to a good start in learning the truth. Your image of God is also on the right track. God is a 'Creator' not a 'destroyer!' My advice to you, dear Lamb, is to continue reading the posts on the religion forum. Keep an open mind and question everything! What is true and right for you will be revealed to you! I, for one, hope to see you air more questions! So, welcome to sciforums, and let the truth begin!
 
Lamb,

Welcome to sciforums. You seem very eloquent for a 1 year old.

In addition to Jade’s excellent comments I’ll add these few.

But the fact is scripture seems to make less and less sense to me. It seems so odd that a being like God would bother create humans, much less make regulations and punishments for their life.
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To understand the scriptures it is important to consider them in the times they were written. There was no modern science at that time. The Earth was considered flat and the center of the universe. Without a basic grounding in physics all unexplained phenomena were considered to be caused by god(s), there was no other apparent choice. The concepts of individual freedoms and modern democracy had not been developed and where the basic and expected political structure was authoritarian.

Your first question to yourself should be whether a morality and philosophy developed under those barbaric and ignorant conditions can be relevant to your life given the more enlightened knowledge we now have of the universe.

Your next question should be about why you think you need religion. There are currently around 4200 registered religions. Some are theistic and some are not. Of the few that I have examined all offer some form of promise that ‘you’ will survive death. The details of any given morality, discipline, ceremonies, doctrines, rituals, are all variations on the rules that must be followed to qualify for an afterlife or an improved afterlife, or just an understanding of what happens to ‘you’ after you die, or transfer, or whatever.

Christianity and Islam appear to be the most popular religions because they had the larger political force behind them rather than having any greater inherent truth compared to other religions. Note that no religion has ever been based on the evidence of direct observation or detection of a god or spirit; they are all based on human creative imagination, which is why there are so many religions, and the common observation that people die and generally do not wish to die.

Could someone please give me some solution or clarification . . . or at the least give some other advice . . . I need to find some relief . . .
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If you want a code of morality then read any number of readily available books on rational morality. If you choose the bible then note that you can still follow such a code without having to believe in gods or spirits.

If you follow a religion because of its promise of an afterlife then find out first whether you have a soul since if you don’t then every religion is without value. Note that science has yet to find anything that would indicate that a soul does or could exist.
 
Christianity was a larger political force compared to the Roman empire?

Christianity and Islam appear to be the most popular religions because they had the larger political force behind them rather than having any greater inherent truth compared to other religions. Note that no religion has ever been based on the evidence of direct observation or detection of a god or spirit; they are all based on human creative imagination, which is why there are so many religions, and the common observation that people die and generally do not wish to die.
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If this was true, why not just stick with the roman gods?

This isn't the best forum to find "practical" christian advice. Try http://forum.catholic.org/

You might also want to look at evidence of miracles such as Zeitoun and Fatima.

Seems so odd that a being like God would bother create humans, much less make regulations and punishments for their life. Could someone please give me some solution or clarification . . . or at the least give some other advice . . . I need to find some relief . . .
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He created us because he loved us. The regulations are really for our own good.
 
Originally posted by Cris
If you follow a religion because of its promise of an afterlife then find out first whether you have a soul since if you don’t then every religion is without value. Note that science has yet to find anything that would indicate that a soul does or could exist.
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Cris,
Why are you trying so hard to make him believe that he is a soul-less creature.!:D


Lost Lamb, since you are not willing to buy atheism as well as scriptures, please keep your mind open, don't trap yourself in any dogmas, continue to search for the truth in your leisure time.!;)
 
Okinrus,

Christianity was a larger political force compared to the Roman empire?
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Strange question. Practicing your imagination again I see.

If this was true, why not just stick with the roman gods?
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Read your history. People had become tired of the old gods and wanted something else, anything else no matter what.

This isn't the best forum to find "practical" christian advice.
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Perhaps not but you are likely to hear both sides of the argument, whereas -

Try http://forum.catholic.org/
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is only going to give you one-sided propaganda.

You might also want to look at evidence of miracles such as Zeitoun and Fatima.
Click to expand...
Except that these aren’t evidence for miracles.

He created us because he loved us.
Click to expand...
Except for those he hates and sends to eternal torment.

The regulations are really for our own good.
Click to expand...
And of course since we don’t have brains then we can’t possibly figure out rules for ourselves.
 
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"It seems so odd that a being like God would bother create humans, much less make regulations and punishments for their life"

It makes more sence if you check out the elder scrolls, wich is believed to more detailed descriptions of the story, in this case the oldest found are the cunieform-tablets from ancient Sumer.

According to S N Kramers translation, the gods created man to "free the gods from laboring for sustenance".
 
Everneo,

Cris,
Why are you trying so hard to make him believe that he is a soul-less creature.!
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Make him? I’m suggesting he checks for himself.

Lost Lamb, since you are not willing to buy atheism as well as scriptures, please keep your mind open, don't trap yourself in any dogmas, continue to search for the truth in your leisure time.!
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An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanished, war eliminated.

Atheism does not offer you an answer but only highlights the faults of theism. But theism does not suggest you open your mind and consider other options. Theism insists it already has the answers and that you must NOT open your mind to anything else.

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. – Albert Einstein. –
 
According to S N Kramers translation, the gods created man to "free the gods from laboring for sustenance".
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just a quikie, how do humans sustain gods? it sounds like they may have died a long time ago seeing there haven't been many sacrifices lately (how would that feed god anyway?).
 
Perhaps not but you are likely to hear both sides of the argument, whereas -
is only going to give you one-sided propaganda.
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No, but it seems the OP is asking for christian advice.

"Strange question. Practicing your imagination again I see."
Nero persecuted the early christians.

Read your history. People had become tired of the old gods and wantedsomething else, anything else no matter what.
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Why not try to pick a more indulgent religion? Usually the old religions gods were morphed into the panatheim of gods.

Except that these aren’t evidence for miracles.
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Thousands saw the apparition at Zeitun and 70,000 saw the dancing sun at fatima.

Except for those he hates and sends to eternal torment.
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I believe that hell is chosen.
 
atheroy:

good question, but thats what it says.

"O mu son, rise from thy bed, from thy ... work that is wise, Fashion servants of the gods, may they produce their..."

Enki, the god of wisdom replies:

"O my mother, the creatures whose name you hast uttered, it exists ..."

Now Enki does something with clay, creates man and helds a party to celebrate (exelent decition :)

Interesting enough, the god fails several times before a proper human is created.
 
Originally posted by Lost Lamb
It seems so odd that a being like God would bother create humans, much less make regulations and punishments for their life. Could someone please give me some solution or clarification . . . or at the least give some other advice . . .
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Dear Lost Lamb, why does it seem odd? Your very question is a possible answer to that: So that you might seek Him (Acts 17:27).

Maybe your previous view about "doubtful indecision" was a bit harsh on yourself. I have learned very much from my doubt - one thing was that doubt could be contained within faith, but faith cannot be contained within doubt. To move from faith to doubt is not a natural one-follows-the-other process as most here would like you to believe.

After you realize that it is OK to doubt, you won't have to fear it anymore. You said "Ethically, most of the bible is sound," but do you realize the implications of that? Very few people here even admit that much. Why do you think the ethics of the Bible are sound in a world where ethics are seen as relative? Do you believe that the God of the Bible has the authority to make laws that hold people to a way of life that could have otherwise only be realized after decades of philosophy and specualtion, and then not be able to enforce it? The only law contained in the Bible is love - the rest of the Bible explains how to live by it, and how God measures it. God created us to love, and when we don't judge ourselves by this goal (a law is also a goal), we miss our goal ("sin"), and that is what we have to fight.

Have you ever noticed how everything suddenly makes sense when you fall in love with someone? That all the theories and explanations and doubts about love simply disappear in the presence of that person, and everything seems to be exactly as it should be? And have you experienced how many reasons and theories and explanations are suddenly necessary when that relationship breaks up? You ask yourself "why did we ever meet?", "did he really love me?", "what did I do to deserve this?". There are many complicated answers, of course, but the none of them can deny that you did have a real relationship - that love does exist. Many people here might attack me for "appealing to your emotions", but I don't think you're that gullible. Questions don't prove or disprove things that only made sense within a relationship.

I would like to know what you consider as "punishment", because I have a feeling that your doubt has something to do with your view of it.
 
The creation of man is described in Genesis, the old testament. Correct me if I am wrong but is there anything about love in the old testament?
 
We find the laws of love as described in the New Testament:
Leviticus 19:18
" 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Of course, the creation accounts don't state explicitly why God created people - it merely says He did. But it is evident (especially through the two creation accounts) that the main motivation was a kind of creative love - like a painter lovingly labouring over a project close to his heart, with man as His mark - His representative, made in His image - on the earth.

When people create it is out of creative interest and ability, an instinctive ordering out of chaos. But we can only like what we created, while God has made his love clear thoughout the Bible - and it was confirmed with Christ (who is often seen as a parallel to Adam). God's love is shown by giving us life, and making us aware of it.
 
lamb,

welcome to scifreaks... i mean forums :D if the bible is not making sense to you, it is okay. do not turn away from it completely, or embrace it either. try searching... not through christianity, buddhism, hinduism, catholicism, blahism or what not... try a search through your own heart and mind. meditate on it, look at the way you see the world... do not see the world through the eyes of a teacher, or a book. maybe then you can find the truth you are looking for.

best of luck
 
Originally posted by okinrus
No, but it seems the OP is asking for christian advice.
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Strange, I read in the original post the writer's healthy doubts about Christianity and a general request for advice, not Xian advice in particular. If the writer was only soliciting Xian advice, then a forum dedicated to science was certainly not the best place to ask.
 
First of all I would like to say that doubting what you have been taught is never a bad thing......in fact Jesus always sent people to think and question what He had said before they came to follow Him. That in itself shows that it is not sinful to doubt...its actually honouring. God gave us a brain to use it, so use it we must.

Secondly.....I would suggest doing research for arguments BOTH for and against Christianity and/or God. You can try praying for guidence/answers while you search. Ask as many different sources as possible and get the widest view of everything you can. I also agree with whomever said to meditate and search your own heart and mind. I personally would go to some mountain and climb till I found a nice cliff to sit and look out from and just meditate there (of course you may not be into climbing that much, maybe a hike in the woods or a lake shore would be better).

I truly hope you find the truth and that you are satisfied.
 
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