I don't really want to continue this discussion, but I feel compelled if only to point out the errors and mistakes to others who may be reading this thread. So,
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead!
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect."
-
Henry V by Wm. Shakespeare
John Connellan said:
Individuals only replicate because their DNA (genes replicate)
This is a ridiculous statement. Individuals reproduce and reproduction is a multi-genic evolved trait which allows genetic representation of an individual in subsequent generations. It misleads the reader into thinking that an individual's genes are somehow manipulating the individual into reproducing. An individual's genes are components of that individual, not parasites involved in competition or predation upon an individual.
John Connellan said:
No, selection acts upon a collection of genes indirectly (as it has to) because genes code for an individual. I am spending this whole thread trying to explain that genes are not the individual. How can u not understand what Im saying.
No! That's not the case. Genes DO NOT code for an individual. Genes code for proteins and protein products, RNA, etc. NOT an individual! Selection acts upon the individual, components of which are genes. I understand completely what you're saying, what I'm wondering is if
you do.
John Connellan said:
The might not ensure it (i.e. extinction) but they allow for it and most of the time DO ensure survival through changing environments.
Absolutely not! Genes cannot ensure, nor can they allow a species to exist or not. Genes are not the unit of selection and neither are species!
John Connellan said:
Yes, propogation of genes, thats what I said (benefit = propogation)
Here again the statement misleads the reader by implying that the propagation of genetic representation of an individual, of which genes are a
component, is a benefit to the genetic material itself at the expense of the individual.
John Connellan said:
I never said they were. I used "clever". Read Godamit.
I believe I quoted you correctly. If you mean something other than what you've written, then you should warn us.
John Connellan said:
Why don't u stick to science. What makes u think I have a hang up with it?
I do stick to science.
You appear to be bitter about what you think is a manipulation of yourself by your genes.
John Connellan said:
I don't. I am considering them as seperate in many ways to the individual.
Genes are components, nothing more. You are attempting to give genes properties which they do not posess.
John Connellan said:
Believe it or not, I have never read his works but I plan to do so.
May I also point you to S.J. Gould,
The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, the section entitled
The Evolutionary Definition of Selective Agency and the Fallacy of the Selfish Gene, pp. 613-644.
John Connellan said:
OK if this is true then I accept what u are saying. U are saying there is no seperation of the goals for genes and the "apparent goals" for the whole individual right?
Well, genes don't have goals, they are merely components of an individual, but in spirit, that's what I'm saying.
John Connellan said:
Again its an analogy. Selfish implies a conscience and I know genes don't have that. The analogy is correct (i.e. apparent selfishness) I didn't mean "how long" I meant that it has to do with the SAME REASON genes are apparently selfish - Selection.
So you meant to say that selection is responsible for the apparent selfishness in genes and for the lack of true altruism? If that's the case, I can't see why you think selection can account for apparent selfishness in genes.
John Connellan said:
For some reason u seem to think my definition of altruism does not increase one's fitness. If u knew this biology well enough, or if u understood what i was saying u would see that it incorporates Kin Selection
I did not say that. I said that there is one definition for altruism, biologists did not change it. My contention with you was that you stated that altruism existed in biology and gave the example of breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is an obvious example of mutual benefit, so it's not altruism. My disagreement with you grew as I read you saying things like,
John Connellan said:
It is not incomplete because genetic propogation has nothing to do with benefits for the individual. There simply is no benefit there
AND
John Connellan said:
One's fitness is NOT a benefit to the organism
AND
John Connellan said:
reproduction is actually an expense to life. There are even some animals which die immediately after reproducing. This cannot be a benefit to the individual.
i just realized that we may have argued before on this topic. you are that Dennett proponent with whom i argued almost a year ago, are you not? if you are, you realize Dennett is not a biologist, don't you?
well, i'll continue tomorow after a good nights rest.