My letter to an Atheist

[Alan McDougall]

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can’t, can I of course I can’t, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. The great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

What do you people believe, No god or God


Alan McDougall 24/6/2008

 

[pavlosmarcos]

I think you've misunderstand what an atheist is, there is no such thing as an absolute atheist, an atheist is someone who simply lacks belief in your claims of a god.
Atheism does not require any faith.
For an atheist to cease being such requires you to prove your claim that a god exist.
You to are atheistic to other religious claims of god/gods. Do you require more faith to disbelieve them?
An atheist is not something that you so much are. Rather, it's something you are from a theistic perspective. Ultimately the word only says what you're not, that the term theist is not applicable to you.
the one, true definition of atheist is without belief.

 

[Jan Ardena]

pavlosmarcos,

I think you've misunderstand what an atheist is, there is no such thing as an absolute atheist, an atheist is someone who simply lacks belief in your claims of a god.

Firstly, he wasn't making a claim that God exists, he was merely stateing his belief in an intelligence behind the universe, which he believes is God.
So as an atheist, you lack belief in God, not in claims or beliefs in God.

Atheism does not require any faith.
For an atheist to cease being such requires you to prove your claim that a god exist.

His post is the best your going to get as far as a universal proof is concerned.
It is now up to you to give a better explanation of how this universe came into being, and how and why it so precisely maintained. And it the onus is on you to prove that your explanation is more valid than his.

You to are atheistic to other religious claims of god/gods. Do you require more faith to disbelieve them?

That would make sense if the definition of atheism was, no belief in religion, as opposed to no belief in God. But it isn't.

An atheist is not something that you so much are. Rather, it's something you are from a theistic perspective.

Not these days mate.
It is a movement independant of theism.
It has gone beyond the word, hence why folks are calling for a different
description of "atheist".

Ultimately the word only says what you're not, that the term theist is not applicable to you.
the one, true definition of atheist is without belief.

Without belief in what?
God?
If so I agree. However i'm inclined to think you left the object of
your lack of belief out on purpose
More goal-post shifting leverage?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can’t, can I of course I can’t, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. The great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

What do you people believe, No god or God


Alan McDougall 24/6/2008

That's quite a post Mr. McDougall.
Well done.

jan.

 

[Spud Emperor]

And it the onus is on you to prove that your explanation is more valid than his.

Or maybe to point out that the concept of a creator who is so unbelievably capable and impressive and awesome as to 'create' all this actually had to come from somewhere too. ....Where did he/she come from and who or WTF created him/her?

 

[Blindman]

It take no effort to be am atheist apart from putting up with theists...

Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation

A billion years is a long time even in cosmological time (around 13billion years) and around a quarter of the age of the Earth.

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

If your father came home a second latter the night you where conceived you would not exist. There is no proof that life can not exist with different fundamental constants.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets

If they type randomly they will and also produce every thing ever written. The number pi contains every number that can exist and if you use every 2 digits to encode the alphabet, it also contains everything ever written.. Find your phone number in pi http://www.angio.net/pi/bigpi.cgi

I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

What makes you think you know???

I don't believe in god and hate being told that my view is cold and bleak. As a scientist the universe is full of wonder and awe.

 

[spidergoat]

OP is filled with many typical theist fallacies. Yawn. Maybe I'll refute them if I have time.

Here are a couple quick points:
Scientists do not say something came from nothing, the Big Bang was not necessarily the beginning, it's only that it's hard to say what happened before it (although there are several quite plausible theories).

The constants that scientists talk about do not regulate the universe, most can be derived mathematically from the assumption of point of view invariance (that the universe is the same in all directions). The physicist Victor Stenger has proven that some constants could be altered to a great degree and we would still have stars and matter.

Since we evolved in these particular circumstances, of course we find it perfectly suited for us, like the water in a puddle, it always fits.

There is no evidence for a God, and physics has no need for one as an explanatory mechanism.

 

[(Q)]

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator?

The believer does not understand the concept of thinking, hence they base their concepts on belief systems and make the logical error of assuming they are rationalizing. They are lazy.

How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

Their primitive understanding of scientific concepts is usually through TV shows like the History channel.

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

The believer will fabricate some nonsense and present it as fact wondering if others believe in the same nonsense.

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

Believers often shoot themselves in the foot by offering up so-called "analogies" which when applied to their own belief system demonstrates a house of cards.

I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

The believer will lie about what they "see"

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can’t, can I of course I can’t, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

Since believers are unable to demonstrate any of their claims, they must resort to "circumstantial evidence" which is essentially the same as obfuscation.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

As an amateur astronomer myself, there is no such belief that can be drawn from astronomy, but only from scriptures.

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. The great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

The believer will talk about the wonders of nature and then attach their myths and superstitions to it creating a more complex notion of nature unnecessarily.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

The believer claims their myths and superstitions are a demand on the explanation of how things work simply because they are unable to think about a world without their gods.

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

The believer is left with nothing but a statement of faith as the bottom line to their evidence of the world around them, nothing more.

 

[Alan McDougall]

OP is filled with many typical theist fallacies. Yawn. Maybe I'll refute them if I have time.

Here are a couple quick points:
Scientists do not say something came from nothing, the Big Bang was not necessarily the beginning, it's only that it's hard to say what happened before it (although there are several quite plausible theories).

The constants that scientists talk about do not regulate the universe, most can be derived mathematically from the assumption of point of view invariance (that the universe is the same in all directions). The physicist Victor Stenger has proven that some constants could be altered to a great degree and we would still have stars and matter.

Since we evolved in these particular circumstances, of course we find it perfectly suited for us, like the water in a puddle, it always fits.

There is no evidence for a God, and physics has no need for one as an explanatory mechanism.

Don't yawn debunk what I wrote in a logical sensible way and if your logic is better than mine, I will join you as an atheist

 

[spidergoat]

No you won't, your acceptance of theism isn't based on logic. You explained yourself, it's based on an argument from incredulity (you simply can't comprehend how things could have come about without the concept) and argument from complexity (things are too complex to have come about on their own).

 

[phlogistician]

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator?

It takes me as much effort to be an atheist as it does for me to not collect stamps.

How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

Are you convolving Cosmology and Abiogenesis?

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

If the Universe were devoid of life, there would be nobody to question it's origins. The question only exists because we do.

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time.

Quickly? ~14Bn years isn't quick.

Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

Where did you pick up that fallacy?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

Are so you are a puddle.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets.

How many times have you repeated that experiment? To what degree of confidence do you have that answer?

Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

Why is it beautiful?

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

This watchmaker, where's he from?

 

[Lori_7]

you're very eloquent alan, and to answer your question, god.

 

[phlogistician]

you're very eloquent alan, and to answer your question, god.

You find that ramble of misunderstandings 'eloquent'?

He displays a lack of understanding of some fundamental ideas. And surprise surprise, that leads him to believe in God.

Flawed methodologies lead to flawed results. As displayed in the OP.

 

[Lori_7]

You find that ramble of misunderstandings 'eloquent'?

He displays a lack of understanding of some fundamental ideas. And surprise surprise, that leads him to believe in God.

Flawed methodologies lead to flawed results. As displayed in the OP.

you just don't get it. i get it. it's just a perception. no need to get all in a tizzy.

 

[Syzygys]

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult

What can I say? I like a good challenge...

 

[(Q)]

i get it.

Lori, it's safe to say we figured that much, too.

 

[jayleew]

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Where universe from.htm

You must read this carefully. The logic is presented pretty well here. It is for atheists and theists alike. It solves the problem by using Occam's Razor. Something did not come from nothing. Instead, it always was. In our normal causality line of thinking, this is a difficult concept to master. Causality cannot be applied to the creation of creation. God, if it exists, could not have come from nothing. But, we are here, so the universe always was if something cannot come from nothing. The alternative is that God came from nothing, and that requires a lot of faith.

 

[quadraphonics]

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

Doesn't seem any more troublesome than nothing -> god somehow shows up -> everything, frankly.

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy.

I don't know of any atheist who subscribes to such a belief. Most seem happy to leave such questions up to the cosmologists, to the extent that they're even meaningful to begin with.

 

[jayleew]

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

I'm sorry you feel that way. There is too much beauty and light found in the universe. Too much good, that I cannot feel that way. With or without God, the universe is the most beautiful thing to me because it's all I have. Theists believe this is not all there is, and that is a beautiful thought too. But, I don't discount this life for the chance of eternity like some theists. I don't believe a god would want us to do that anyway.

There are songs and hymns that sing that this is not my home, and they all bring out the worst of the world in the song, then instill hope to the believer and serve as a reminder that they should not worry and that they don't belong here....meaning keep your eyes on Christ, not the troubles of today.

For example, take a look at "I don't belong here." from Switchfoot, a widely accepted "Christian" rock band. That is a common theme taught in today's Christian churches.

I still love that song because they are talented, but when you tear it down, it has a dim outlook of life. It gives the impression that life without God would be cold and dark.

 

[Syzygys]

A few questions for Alan:

1. Why do we need appendix?
2. Why can't we have teeth like sharks, constantly replacing the old ones?
3. Why do men have nipples?
4. What is with the armpit hair?
5. Why can't we close our ears like seals?

Bad design, shall I say?